sr4dt

I believe the SHAWD would be a better comarison to the XI trim of bimmer.

blakura

Excellent point Darth, I agree 100%, I don't know why so many people put BMW on a pedestal. I would have to say they are the ones who are drinking some laced Kool-Aid.

SSFTSX

Even 2G TSX is competitive with BMW 328. It may be 1 or 2 second slower in 0-60mph times but if u want compare 0-130mph or quarter mile the difference wont be much where more efficient aerodynamic profile of TSX will just beat about anything in its class. and than fuel efficiency at higher speeds of 80 to 90 mph is another matter.
If u want to chose a car for long drive. which one will u chose. Which is more efficient, more reliable, more refined, more comfort and electronics with impressive sound system. just the blue tooth streaming video is worth convenience. along with auto tilt mirrors/rear view camera.
Even the critics of TSX admit its handling power.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

hmm..the 2G TSX is actually 0.5s slower to 60mph than a 328i (6.7s vs 6.2s). But I'd imagine the difference will get bigger since the TSX afterall has 30 less hp. From the 1/4 mile, TSX is a low 15s car @93mph, while 328i is a high 14's car @ 95-96mph. Small difference, but it shows that the 328i will keep on pulling away from the TSX. Not sure about after 130mph but that's too fast on the street....

darth62

I seriously doubt the TSX will even come close to a base 3-series in real world acceleration. The 3-series has something like 60 pounds of torque on it, is nearly the same weight, and has the advantage of being RWD (which means more efficient delivery of power to the ground).

The TSX is certainly not going to "beat about anything in it's class." Its not even a whole lot faster than USDM Accord 4-cyl.

I've been driving a TSX for almost six years. I have 82,000 on my 1G (which, btw, handles a bit better than the 2G). I am quite familiar with the car's dynamics.

Comparing the TSX to a 3-series or a G37 is a joke. It simply does not even hint at being in that class.

SSFTSX

RWD are not fuel efficient thats why Japanese abondoned it on mass scale. it is the fuel efficiency at sustained higher speeds for hours that matters. TSX is still faster in top speeds than IS-250/Accord. Alot of websites have tested it. USDM Accord does not have that aerodynamic efficiency of TSX but TSX is heavier than USDM accord.

No one in the World can support the claim that old TSX/EuroAccord handles better than New one. Previous Euroaccord was car of the year in so many countries.


I had 06 G-35 & 06 TSX and 2G TSX for past couple of days now is far better car in handling and refinement than both of them. It damps the external motions. so it feels as if it is not handling well. Honda is the engine firm. Nissan/BMW never had the money on the scale Honda. Nissan/BMW are strong in EU/Asia because of vast diesel line up. Imagine if Honda introduce the diesel on same scale.

Legend2TL

Actually Edmunds compared a 1G TSX to a 3 series and other German cars. Overall it did pretty well from their review.

http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...ticleId=100428

darth62

First of all, EDMUNDS never compared the 3 series and 1 G TSX. The only thing they did is mention that the TSX, like the 3-series, has some nice handling characterisitcs. Your post seems to suggest that they did a systematic comparison, which is not the case.

Second, I really couldn't care less what EDMUNDS things based on their test drive of a TSX. I have 82,000 miles on mine. I think I know how that car peforms pretty well at his point.

No TSX owner who is even vaguely objective would suggest that the TSX is in the 3-series class in terms of performance. And, since a comparably equiped 3-series costs about $15,000 more - that is hardly a suprise.

This is an apple to oranges comparison if I ever saw one.

darth62

Whether or not the TSX is more fuel efficient than the 3-series or the USDM Accord is irrelevant. We weren't talking about MPG. You claimed that the TSX handles and accelerates on par with the 3-series. No personal offense intended, but that is not even close to being true.

Wrong again. Most roadtests have come away concluding the new TSX handles slightly worse and rides a bit better.
The tires are the same, the basic suspension is not altered that much. The only real difference is that the new TSX is bigger, heavier, and has horribly numb EPS. In terms of overall sportiness, the 1G TSX comes out on top.




Honda diesels are available all over Europe. The main reason they don't compete there is because of lack of a dealer network.

And, I'll believe that the new TSX dampens movements and feels more glued down than my 2004 TSX (which has a stiff bouncy ride). That doens't mean it handles better thought. It should means it has a nicer ride.

Legend2TL

1.) Edmunds mentions it in the article as a reference point, so it was not tested against.

2.) Edmunds drives and tests more cars than you so yeah they can provide far more objective points to other vehicles.

3.) There are probably a few TSX owners who would compare the 1G to a 325i. You make your statement sound like a fact but it's only your opinion.

darth62

1) Edmunds mentioned the 3-series in a article as a comparison for the TSX - saying that both cars had nice handling characteristics. They never said the TSX was the peer of the 3-series, nor did they ever systematically compare the vehicles as you suggested. So, without meaning a personal insult, I think your post was a tad misleading.

2) Edmunds gets a loaner vehicle from a manufacturer for a few weeks. So, you'll pardon me if I trust 82,000 miles and six years of ownership over their "objective" tests.

But, if we want to talk "objective" tests - CR has a 0-60 for the automatic 328i at 6.9 seconds. They got 9.2 seconds for the 1G TSX. the 328 also killed the TSX in virtually every other "objective" comparison.

I am a TSX owner and chose my own car over a three-series. I did it for the better ergonmics, lower cost of ownership, and better comfort. I don't regret it at all - it was the right choice for me. Give the variables at the time, I'd do it again. But, even a TSX owner and enthusiast like myself is not deluded enough to overlook the sheer weight of these numbers.

3) All posts here are just "opinions." I never claimed to be speaking for all TSX owners and I agree that my take is just that - my take and no better than anybody elses' view. however, I am willing to bet that I am a whole lot more familiar with what TSX owners think about the 3-series vs. the 1G TSX than you - given that I've been on TSX chatboards, been to meets, and know quite a few TSX drivers as a result. How long have you been doing all of that?

I don't know a single TSX owner who would claim the TSX competes with the 3-series. Most of the TSX drivers I know think the TSX is a great car for what it is - but probably not a good match for the 3-series, G35, higher line versions of the A4, etc. And, IN MY OPINION, any TSX owner who does is not being very objective.

Legend2TL

You made your earlier post sound like fact ("No TSX owner who is even vaguely objective would suggest that the TSX is in the 3-series class in terms of performance. "). And my statement was "Edmunds drives and tests more cars than you so yeah they can provide far more objective points to other vehicles.". So in terms of contrasting multiple vehicles they probably know more than almost everyone on this forum including you and me.

darth62

I'll disagree with you. EDMUNDs get a car as a loaner from the manufacturers. They do a test for a few weeks (sometimes not even that) and then they give the car back. I don't think they wind up knowing as much about a car as the actual owners. Maybe they have more comparisons - but they never had the same level of indepth data on each car.

I also think that a lot of readers tend to reify reports by EDMUNDS as "expert" opinons that are unasailable. In fact, the opinions at EDMUNDS are just opinions. And, at the end of the day, I trust my own experience far more than a six paragraph review on a website.

Its almost a moot point, however. Yor initial post was implying that EDMUNDS had compared the two vehicles and evaluated the TSX favorably vs. the 3-series. That isn't the case. EDMUNDS simply said that both cars had handling strengths. They never said the TSX was the overall dynamic equal of the 3-series, G35, etc.

And, I'll have to stand by my earlier post. No objective poster could look at the differences in hard data (like the 3-series doing 0-60 in 2.3 seconds less) and then claim that the TSX is as fast as the 3-series. No objective poster could look at data like speed in avoidance manuvers and claim that the TSX handles as well either. To ignore all the evidence, is simply fanboyism.

Legend2TL

, those times are also for a 328i. I referenced a 325i so please be aware of the difference, although I should have said 323i. I should have also said contrasted instead of compared. But none the less Edmunds did contrast the 1G TSX against the 325i.

So let's just cut to the actual words in the article to make it easier on everyone. And last I apologize for getting this forum off-topic.

"...The TSX was designed to fill the slot between Acura's racy-looking RSX coupe, and the larger Acura TL sedan. Such a position places it directly up against the lower end of BMW's 3 Series, Audi's A4 and the Mercedes C-Class sedans. Having just said good-bye to a 2002 Audi A4 that had been with us for 12 months, we were able to wipe away the tears after getting into the TSX. With its luxurious interior, slick shifting transmission and smooth four-cylinder engine, we quickly forgot about our previous A4 allegiance.

Only one engine choice is available — a 2.4-liter four-cylinder that produces 200 horsepower and 166 pound-feet of torque. That's more power than either of the four-cylinders from Audi or Mercedes, and nearly 20 hp more than the inline six-cylinder in BMW's similarly priced 325i. As big fans of the A4 and the 3 Series, the TSX's sheer horsepower figures alone immediately grabbed our attention. After our weeklong test-drive, the TSX moved from just capturing our attention to holding it in a headlock.

The engine is as smooth and quiet as any other power plant present in a luxury performance car, and while it was strong up high, there is considerably less power down low. Keep it above 3,000 rpm, however, and it rewards you with solid midrange torque that extends right up to its lofty 7,110-rpm redline. A trip to our closed test track showed that the TSX could cover a quarter-mile in 16.3 seconds at 86 miles per hour — a half second behind our last recorded number for a V6-equipped A4 (with an MSRP of $38,410). The lack of low-end torque was all the more apparent during acceleration testing, but as the times prove, the TSX turns up the power quickly once engine speed builds.

The smooth, short throws of the standard six-speed manual shifter are pure automotive bliss. Even the most jaded editor on our staff had to admit that the Acura's transmission feels as quick and precise as they come. Everything, from well-placed pedals to the leather-covered knob that fit perfectly in the palm of your hand, makes you eager to move through the gearbox.

A taut suspension keeps the front-wheel-drive TSX stable yet comfortable. We've gushed through many a road test about the superior handling characteristics of the BMW 3 Series, and when it's considered against the coveted BMW, we still have to express enthusiasm for the TSX. With limited body roll, and plenty of grip from the standard 17-inch wheels and tires (a necessary upgrade for its competitors), the TSX didn't disappoint. Should you get in over your head, the standard Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) system can help get you and the car back on course. There was some dissent among our group about the precision and weighting of the steering, but we'd bet most buyers will find the TSX's rack-and-pinion setup more than adequate..."

darth62

So, where in this article does EDMUNDS talk about the BMW and TSX being tested against each other, and the TSX emering as the 3-series' equal? What EDMUNDS does say is that aftering having tested both "they still have enthusiasm for the TSX." The comparison you implied was never made.

Also, why would anybody care about the 323i? That car hasn't been available for years. We're talking about the TSX and the currently available 3-series.

And, btw, I am aware that we are now in the 2 generation of the TSX, but the new TSX has the same engine, tires, and basic suspension, as the old TSX, but has an inferior steering system. The fact that the current 3-series kicked the snot out of the previous generation TSX should tell us what we need to know about the vehicles that are available TODAY.

Legend2TL

It's mentioned all throughout the article I referenced ("'The TSX was designed to fill the slot between Acura's racy-looking RSX coupe, and the larger Acura TL sedan. Such a position places it directly up against the lower end of BMW's 3 Series, Audi's A4 and the Mercedes C-Class sedans.").

And no it's not a fact that the 2G TSX has the same engine, it's been evolved very slightly (and I will admit it's very slightly but it's not the same engine). The tires have also increased 10mm in width, which again last time I checked 225 not equal to 215. The base suspension is the same layout but I extremely doubt they are the identical components. Every generation small changes are made to suspension dimensions, pickup points, geometry, bushing material, damper rates, spring rates, roll bar stiffness... So no it's not the same.

darth62

There aren't any performance comparisons as you suggested. EDMUNDs is just telling us that the TSX is MARKETED at the same end of the market as the less expensive German sedans. That is zero basis for conclusion.

Nowhere in that article does EDMUNDS conclude the TSX or TL is the equal of the 3-series or any other sedan. Again, no disrespect meant and not trying to flame, but I think you misrepresented what they did say.


There are changes and improvements and they are not the same car. But, most sources says that those changes actually had the net effect of detracting from the sportiness of the TSX. My own impression, for what little it is worth (because there is only so much you can learn in a 15 minute test drive) is that the new TSX rides better, does better in bumpy corners, but that the new numb EPS removes any pretense of sportiness.

Legend2TL

Again here is the entire article to read, Edmunds contrasts and compares the 1G TSX against the C, 3, and A4. Very clearly stated, and Edmunds in the article compare various performance measurements with it's German counterparts.

And my original statement was "Actually Edmunds compared a 1G TSX to a 3 series and other German cars. Overall it did pretty well from their review." After reading the entire article that is a fair statement. I never said it was equal to or otherwise in any of my posts.




"Just when you think the German automakers have every angle covered, along comes a car that could switch an auto connoisseur's taste from schnitzel to sushi quicker than you can say Hefeweitzen.

Acura's new 2004 TSX sedan rolled into Acura showrooms this spring, but for a car that's been on sale for nearly four months, we haven't noticed many of them out on the road. And we can't understand why. If Honda, parent company of Acura, decided to send a fleet of its acclaimed Odyssey minivans around to pick up potential buyers from BMW, Audi and Mercedes-Benz dealerships, typical German sedan consumers would be impressed with a TSX test-drive. We certainly were.

The TSX was designed to fill the slot between Acura's racy-looking RSX coupe, and the larger Acura TL sedan. Such a position places it directly up against the lower end of BMW's 3 Series, Audi's A4 and the Mercedes C-Class sedans. Having just said good-bye to a 2002 Audi A4 that had been with us for 12 months, we were able to wipe away the tears after getting into the TSX. With its luxurious interior, slick shifting transmission and smooth four-cylinder engine, we quickly forgot about our previous A4 allegiance.

Only one engine choice is available — a 2.4-liter four-cylinder that produces 200 horsepower and 166 pound-feet of torque. That's more power than either of the four-cylinders from Audi or Mercedes, and nearly 20 hp more than the inline six-cylinder in BMW's similarly priced 325i. As big fans of the A4 and the 3 Series, the TSX's sheer horsepower figures alone immediately grabbed our attention. After our weeklong test-drive, the TSX moved from just capturing our attention to holding it in a headlock.

The engine is as smooth and quiet as any other power plant present in a luxury performance car, and while it was strong up high, there is considerably less power down low. Keep it above 3,000 rpm, however, and it rewards you with solid midrange torque that extends right up to its lofty 7,110-rpm redline. A trip to our closed test track showed that the TSX could cover a quarter-mile in 16.3 seconds at 86 miles per hour — a half second behind our last recorded number for a V6-equipped A4 (with an MSRP of $38,410). The lack of low-end torque was all the more apparent during acceleration testing, but as the times prove, the TSX turns up the power quickly once engine speed builds.

The smooth, short throws of the standard six-speed manual shifter are pure automotive bliss. Even the most jaded editor on our staff had to admit that the Acura's transmission feels as quick and precise as they come. Everything, from well-placed pedals to the leather-covered knob that fit perfectly in the palm of your hand, makes you eager to move through the gearbox.

A taut suspension keeps the front-wheel-drive TSX stable yet comfortable. We've gushed through many a road test about the superior handling characteristics of the BMW 3 Series, and when it's considered against the coveted BMW, we still have to express enthusiasm for the TSX. With limited body roll, and plenty of grip from the standard 17-inch wheels and tires (a necessary upgrade for its competitors), the TSX didn't disappoint. Should you get in over your head, the standard Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) system can help get you and the car back on course. There was some dissent among our group about the precision and weighting of the steering, but we'd bet most buyers will find the TSX's rack-and-pinion setup more than adequate.

Slalom test notes from instrumented testing revealed the TSX's predictable handling manners at the limit, where only slight body roll and solid grip contributed to quick runs through the cones.

Distances in the 60-to-0-mph braking test were less impressive, as the Acura's best distance of 128 feet was considerably longer than the last 3 Series we tested, which turned a stop of 117 feet, or the last A4, which halted in 118. Not only were the distances a bit lengthy, but the pedal could be more progressive, and some front-end dive was displayed. Four-wheel antilock disc brakes (ventilated in front) are standard.

Describing the TSX's exterior can be quite challenging — as there aren't many interesting or noteworthy design elements to consider. Parked next to the BMW and Audi, the TSX looks much less assuming dressed in its simple sheet metal, but after climbing inside, any slight displeasure about its exterior blandness is instantly forgotten.

Honda and Acura are well-known for their intuitive, ergonomically efficient interior designs, and the TSX is no exception. The expansive cabin is instantly inviting. Soft-touch leather abounds, with no cheap, hard plastic surfaces that allude to cost-cutting measures. Like its Acura siblings, the TSX is truly a luxury car. The sporty black perforated leather interior of our test car was highlighted by stylish brushed aluminum trim that adds just enough contrast without looking too flashy.

Smack in the middle of the TSX's center stack is a DVD-based navigation screen that will knock your socks off. Not only is the 8-inch screen painless to read, it's also easy to operate — with or without using the voice recognition system. The dual-zone automatic climate control is integrated into the system, as is the kicking 360-watt, eight-speaker sound system complete with an in-dash six-disc changer and steering wheel-mounted audio controls. Within minutes of taking the wheel, we had adjusted the air conditioning and were scanning the preset buttons in search of a worthy tune.

The TSX's front seats are comfortable with plenty of padding in the bottom cushion, and good support from the back cushion. Drivers receive a standard eight-way power seat (an option in the A4 and 325i), but the passenger seat is only available with manual controls. Other standard luxury amenities include xenon headlights, a tilt and telescopic steering column and a power moonroof plus heated seats for those cool nights.

In terms of interior room, the TSX's measurements are comparable to those of the German sedans. The Acura takes the front legroom prize — but only by an inch or so. Otherwise, in every measurable direction, the TSX, A4, 325i and C230 are within inches of one another. Rear-seat passengers will find plenty of toe room under the front seats and comfortable outboard cushions, but as in other compact luxury sedans, a fifth passenger will suffer in the center seat.

When planning a weekend getaway, the Acura's trunk offers 12.8 cubic feet of maximum storage capacity, which is a bit less than the Audi, two cubic feet more than the BMW and about equal to the Mercedes. The trunk lid closes effortlessly and features hinges that don't intrude into the cargo space when the lid is closed. In fact, all the doors are extremely easy to open and close, without ever once causing us to look back to make sure a door was truly shut.

Ultimately what makes us so fond of the TSX? When you combine its long list of amenities and comfortable ride, add in the refined engine and impressive transmission, you're smitten even before the phrase "good value" comes to mind. Money matters, whether you're buying your first car or your 10th, and at $28,490 (or $2,000 less if you skip the nav system), a fun-to-drive luxury car is a good buy. Even if it's Japanese instead of German."

SSFTSX

Standard 328 has only 16 inch tires and certainly cannot pull more Gs than standard TSX. offcourse anyone can spend money on modifications.
On other hand TSX has lower noise levels, bigger fuel tank and more fuel efficiency over extended range of drive. thats what counts.


Show me test result from any magainze be it from Europe or Australlia than 2nd G handles worse than I G. It is only the feeling of steering wheel. nothing to do with real world figures.
Wheel base is different, brake size is different, suspension is different, It is only heavier by 150lbs but it has alot of road presence and eye catching design. It has more usable torque over wide band with better fuel efficiency.




Let give you some history. BMW/Nissan spent 5 decades on refinining diesel technology. Honda first diesel came just five years ago and before that they were using Isuzu diesel engines.
It handles better. It hugs the curves at higher speeds than the previous verison. Just no one feels that it is even the bends.

auto_freak

Isn't this thread about the TL vs 335xi? how can you guys go so off-topic? lets get back to the topic, guys...

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

CL6

It has never been 'abandoned' as there are many cars in the 80s and 90s that had RWD. And while it may be efficient the main reason is because it is far cheaper to make FWD than RWD... cheaper to make = cheaper to sell and more profits for the manufacturer.

Fishy

Yes, I don't see how the TSX can be compared now with the BMW 3 series since the cheapest is the 328i which bare bones is more expensive than a loaded TSX.

The 4G TL's should be compared to the 328i (and not the 335i's) because the 328i's are in the 4G TL's price range trim for trim.

With that, its a no-brainer to pick the TL over the 328i.

As for the 335i, you either need extra $$$ to get the same features or you have to settle for a bare base model with that nice warm leatherette

PetesTL

Before I bought my 4G last month, I was close to pulling the trigger on a '08 335i.......the sticker was a little over $47K, but it had no NAV, no Bluetooth, no back-up camera, no push-button start, and no fancy radio.....But it did have the Sports package with paddle shifters, bigger wheels and sports seats. It handled great and took off like a rocket....but without all the fancy toys, it felt too "old school" and "cheap" for me.......and with so many 3 series on the road I see everyday, too "vanilla."

SSFTSX

Problem is no one has tested 328 in bare bones forum. In every test the load it up with some thing to get the desired result.
All those have costly suspension option which Acura does not offer as there cars much more standardize interms of engines and suspension modifications. Only the new SH-AWD is new thing from Acura.
TSX much closely compare with 328i interms of perfomance, handling, interior space, fuel economy etc. It would be another matter if TSX took 9 seconds and BMW 328 took 5 seconds for 0-60.
TL is more favourably compared to BMW 528 and TL-S to 535. I am sure TL will beats it in all categories except for price.
These are prices for 2007-2008 models.

darth62

There are a ridiculous number of 3-series sedans out here. That is one reason I'd never have one. I always liked that my TSX was relatively rare. And, at least for a while, there won't be that many TLs on the road (should be a big seller though, at the end of the day).

cg2006TSX

A couple of points now that I've logged in after seeing my first 4G TL on the road, as opposed to test driving a base soon after launch:

1. As a follow-up to the 3G TL, the 4G TL is an epic failure. As a competitor to the Lexus GS, it's a comparable ride if that's what rocks your boat. I blew by some grandpa in PWP 09 Base on the Bronx River Parkway earlier today, with some young college girl in a Mazda 3 following in my spray. Should have dug deep for the Lexus, popsicle! That TL is one fugly ride, front and back!

2. The 1G TSX was a great option in the 25K range, especially if you were sweet on tech with the built-in nav and bluetooth. I'd say it's one of the best cars I've ever owned, but in large part the equation was the perceived value, especially as a sportier Accord. As a follow-up to the 1G however, the 2G TSX is another epic failure. I've only seen a handful, and if I never see that grill or those anemic tailights again, it won't be soon enough.

3. I presently drive a 328xi, which is in a completely different class than the TSX, or the TL, for that matter. It's a classic sports sedan, as opposed to a pair of family sedans pretending to be something they're not. Spare me the numbers, I'm telling you how they drive, pure and simple.

The bottom line is that Acura is stuck with these dogs for another five years, unless they get with the program and release new models.

Epic. Fail.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Seems like you are comparing a car that you have driven (328xi) vs cars that you haven't (2G TSX and 4G TL).

Hugh9269

Infiniti and Lexus have moved to RWD. Honda is moving towards AWD is certain cars. The only car they offer without it is the TSX. FWD has met it's limit HP wise in most current cars due to torque steer which has been tamed within limits. A G37 with RWD offers the same fuel economy as a 4G TL.

The 08' TSX was preferred most most car magazines as having better steering, better handling and lighter weight.

darth62

I just bought a 3-series myself (E91 Sportwagon) but I really couldn't disagree with you more. I think both the TL and TSX are fantastic cars. Compared to the 3-series, they're better balanced, offer more value, and probably will be easier to live with over the longterm.

SSFTSX

G37 is size of TSX certianly not size and weight class of TL which moved into LS/740 category. RWD and AWD are in some expensive luxury cars. Not mass market cars. what is drive train for Altima/Maxima?. . There is little point in increasing hp beyond certain point unless all freeways become autobhan.
There is reason that Acura has such low depreciation compared to other brands.

better handling? that needs to be proven.
lighter weight? Lighter weight is meaningless unless it shows marked improvement in fuel economy otherwise noise reduction, comfort, sability, better brakes, performance, safety in every objective measurement 2G beats first one. etc.
Steering is more thing of feeling not some objective criteria.

cp3117

Gee, im not sure how this thread got turned into a TSX vs BMW thread but im glad someone realised Edmunds didnt test the TSX to those other brands.
The test they did do was the GLI vs 1G TSX in which the TSX lost out and had to work hard at just competing with Audi's parent company. That in itself is not good being that Acura is suppose to be a premium company. This is where i find it hard to compare a TSX to the Tier 1 brands (with exception to maybe a 323 available here in Canada).

The 2G TSX i feel has grown up a bit and has now pulled away from the GLI as far as the luxury look goes but still has to prove itself performance wise. With all the problems popping up on the TSX board though i would wait a year or two especially due to the engine knocking/pinging problem. I know a lot of people wanted a diesel TSX but acura didnt have to go through all the trouble and give them the sound of one.

Bottom line is that this is a TL vs 335i thread and we should probably at least keep it close to there.....

cg2006TSX

A few follow-up points:

1. I've driven both the 4G TL & 3G TL, the 2G TSX, the 335, and owned the 1G TSX prior to buying the 08 328xi. If you want to state balance, the 328 is the closest to car perfection I've ever owned/driven. The 335 is nirvana, however in the case of the 335, I was concerned about the longevity of the turbos since I intend to give the 328 to my wife and buy an M coupe for the 2010 LCI.

2. As pointed out by a number of posters, the 4G TL is not a competitor to the 3, but to the 5, if at all - I don't believe anyone really cross-shops a TL with a 5. Personally, I believe the 4G TL competes with the Lexus GS. Infiniti's G, Audi's A6, BMWs 5 are beyond Acura's ability to compete.

3. Forums like these can go round and round about meaningless statistics and reviews, however the truth is there if you are willing to accept it:

Acura. Epic. Fail(ure). Following. Success. 3G TL. 1G TSX.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Car and Driver did a test of the 1g TSX vs Audi A4, Volvo S40, and Subaru Legacy.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...omparison_test

I believe the A4 is a competitor to the 3 series. If TSX is a competitor to the GLI, I can say the A4 is a competitor to the GLI as well. Uh oh..what do we have here then..VW vs Audi...that's not good..

2G TSX performance-wise, it has already been proven. 0-60 in 6.7s and 1/4 mile in 15.1@93mph. Not the fastest out there, but competitive already (IS250 it slower at least).

Yes, the 3 series is famous for its balance. No doubt about that.

The 4G TL IMO is not a DIRECT competitor to any car in the market. It's bigger than the G, 3 series, A4, C class etc. But it's priced similar to those cars. I don't think anyone would really cross-shop a TL with a 5 either, there's a huge gap in price. I don't think it directly competes with GS, A6, E class for the same reason.

And it seems like you haven't driven the 4G TL SH-AWD yet. Look at what Pete said, he's owned both FWD and AWD models, and there are huge differences between the two. The base model becomes more like a ES350-kind of car. It's softer than the old 3G base TL.

CL6

I'm afraid right now the data does not support your conclusions as to the TL and the TSX. Even BMW is down and they are bleeding money as a company. When November or December's #s come out then we'll know better how these models are selling but, right now, auto sales in general are in decline and the market is not the same as it was when the 3G TL and 1G TSX were introduced.

Have you driven all these different cars you are comparing?

darth62

Let me be clear what I mean by balance (and, again, keep in mind this comes from guy who has just bought a three series and will soon be unloading his Acura - so I have no reason to be biased in favor of Acura): I do think the BMW will ultimately handle better and may have other performance advantages. But, the 3-series will not be as reliable, offer cabin technology that is the equal, or be as cheap and easy to maintain. I'm talking about the full package - not just dynamics.

Oh, and btw, I have the latest issue of Roundel (the BMW Club official mag) on my desk. It has a article on cars that BMW should fear (basically cars that offer value that exceeds that of the BMW line). First car on the list? TL SH-AWD.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol darth, my post was in response to cg2006TSX and cp3117. This is what cg2006TSX said,

"If you want to state balance, the 328 is the closest to car perfection I've ever owned/driven."

I was assuming he meant the handling balance.

Otherwise, I agree with what you said.

Hugh9269

Actually ithe TSX s closer to 7.3 0-60

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cs+page-2.html

People will still cross shop the G37, IS350, CTS, A4, Maxima, 3 Series, but I agree not the 5 series, price is much higher. i shopped all but the 5 series. If total interior room and value the 4G TL wins, but many people like me like the add benefit of space, but dont need it day to day.

If I have the extra cash and my druthers I would own a 335ix. I fell in love on the first test drive. The balance of the car and the drivetrain is simply incredible!

damnboy37

I agree

Actually the Hyundai Genesis is the first car they mention, they say it has the space of a 7er to compete with the 5er at the price of a 3. They mention the TL after the Infiniti suv.

People have to remember the 3 series is the bottom of the barrel for luxury (325), but at the top in performance (M3). The 7 series is all luxury, performance comes after. The 5 series fits right in the middle. There is a reason why car magazines say good things about BMW or compare other cars to BMWs.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The one you quoted is not the actual number, it was only an estimate.
The real test can be found here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/..._tsx_road_test

Actually it's 15.3@93mph, not 15.1 as I said earlier. But 0-60 is 6.7s.