kobi2002

noRe456

<~~~~ 335i coupe owner, this thread is interesting.

cp3117

I agree that resources are not the problem here. I believe that they are having problems developing and testing their new 6AT and just want to make sure its not going to give problems (which they should be doing) so that they dont have a nightmare like their previous AT where they had a recall that potentially affected 1.1M vehicles.

CL6

Okay I found this article:
http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_honda_falls_behind/

The Honda spokesperson blames "resources" but also says sales have grown from 800,000 in 1996 to 1.37 million in 2007... so it's not about having the resources it's about making it a priority. Honda probably figured, I suspect, that while they might lose some sales due to not offering a 6 speed automatic they probably wouldn't lose enough to work on the project at the expense of other stuff.

Anyway the 335 has a 6 speed automatic and the TL should, too.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I am not sure if Subaru and Audi have/had SMG style gearbox. I know the MRS used to have it.

Honda is indeed developing a 6AT like I said in my previous post. Besides the resources issue, like cp3117, I'd imagine they don't want to repeat the tranny failure. I think they don't have any problem making one. They simply want to ensure it's reliable.

Ah, yes, that's the article where it says they are developing a new 6AT and how they are lacking manpower to keep up with all the projects going on. Like I said, they have the money, but they need to hire more people.

Yea, I agree, they probably did some Gantt charts and/or some sort of weighted-decision matrices and decided what's important and what's not.

And you are right, the Acura SLX was simply a rebadged Isuzu Trooper, while the Honda Passport was simply a rebadged Isuzu Rodeo. However, both of these didn't sell well at all.

I personally have no idea why they insist on building their own automatic transmission. Simply sourcing it from elsewhere would make it so much easier. I mean, they can certainly keep making their own MT, since they are so good with it, but AT...I have no clue...

Rennfahrer

"..TL handily beats the 335's" <== Whoever said this is insane! The TL is a nice car. I'm sure TL owners are very proud of their car but don't get crazy.

CL6

A former sales person told me Honda outsourced much of the 5 speeds that had problems... I can't confirm this but she seemed pretty damn sure of it.

Honda has always been behind the curve going from 4 to 5 speeds when others went from 5 to 6 speeds and, in some cases, 7 speeds.

Legend2TL

Honda has always designed and developed their gearboxes. Alot of components are outsourced but the sub-assembly, integration and final assembly are always done by Honda. The 4AT and 5AT problems were well documented by a excellent article in the LA Times newspaper that did the best job of getting into not only some of the design issues but more importantly the 2nd gear shaft assembly that was manufactured outside and had poor tolerances and finishing which was one of the problems with those transaxles. The problem machine company is no longer used since they did not follow proper quality control and did not make parts that adhered to the drawing and process specifications.


There was also a great article in Business Week in the early 90's that showed the entire process of a Honda Civic crankshaft in Ohio. I think 5-6 outside companies were involved with casting, heat treating, rough machining, fine machining, hardening and finah processing. Very intersting on how Honda manages that many sub-contractors, but nothing compared to Boeing (which I though had ~3000 sub-contractors).

TMQ

A run of the mill 3 series... Only if BMW puts it in FWD. BMW 3 series is still the standard of sports sedans, even the base model. A base BMW with 6MT and sports package handles really well and is a lot of fun to drive. People are still running BMW 3 series from the late '80s on the track.

The appealing part of BMW is the wide range selections of products in terms of sportiness or comfort to pick from.

pokin

Wow, this thread is still going....
TL 4G vs. 335xi = no comparison. Different classes (i.e. super sports sedan vs. luxury sedan), performance and handling - different planets (b 4 real - not close), size (Escalade vs. Explorer), Tech (fair comparison here), Price ($$ difference), Powertrain (lightyears apart), Target Demographics (335 - 8 to 55 tickers vs. TL - 40 to 50 tickers). It is much easier to contrast these two vehicles than to compare them.

CL6

And yet they compete with one another. Imagine that.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the info legend2tl! I also heard that for Honda, they stick to the same contractors as long as they keep making reliable products for them, even if the price is more $$. I heard that other brands, they simply go to the cheapest contractor.

CL6, I think Honda was one of the first with 5AT, at least in the mainstream market while others were still using 4AT. Also, a lot of companies, like Toyota, skipped 5AT (Camry) and went straight to a 6AT.

Legend2TL

Still going, kinda wish it would be locked at some point but....
Depending on your definition both the 335xi and TL 4G are both sport sedans. A M3 or M5 can be considered a super sports sedan but not a lowly AWD BMW. According to the editors in the Acura sponsored event the 4G AWD was faster than the 335, so being 4 real they are close in handling. Have to wait for a independent test but for now I'll trust the editors of Edmunds on that. Size is not that much different (98 cuft vs 93 cuft). Price there is definitely a difference. Powertrain, I'd give the BMW upper marks for the engine (twin turbo, direct gas injection, VANOS,...) but lower marks for the transmission/differentials (the SH-AWD is superior on paper at least). Not sure where you got the target demographics but I guess they are about the same for both vehicles (I thought I read somewhere the buyers of BMW AWD are older than their RWD versions). So yeah it's actually very easy to compare these two vehicles...

Hugh9269

Somewhat intresting point BMW uses a GM sourced 6AT, a 6L45 Never knew that.

I agree a 6AT should be at least the standard. With cost cutting these days, every car maker is trying to save some $$$. A 6AT from Honda although should not be a big issue to produce.

Hugh9269

Well allot of cars compete in that class; IS350, IS250, ES350, MKS, G37, CTS, C300, A4, C350, TL etc....

They are all quite different cars... But I have too agree a 335i RWD vs TL FWD is a different class in pure driving experience... After test driving one. The SHAWD is too be seen, but looks impressive.

But after talking to friends and my own opinion, a Acura proves to be a great value, quality, reliablity and good sporting appeal.

mustiy

Current 2008 e90 335xi fully loaded owner, upgraded from a 3g TL navi (bought it the month it came out). I loved my TL, never really had any complaints about it especially after slapping on the A-spec aero kit - this perfected the look.

That being said...Some of you are clearly on some fanboy shit thinking the 4g TL is a better overall car then a 335.

PetesTL

Performance-wise...no........value-wise...absolutely.

kharateez

Not only is the 335 more expensive, but it is far less reliable than any Acura. The problems that it has and the cost of replacing parts is really high. Regular maintenance is also way overpriced. With Acura though, if you take care of the car, change the oil, and do the routine maintenance, the car will be flawless until at least 100k miles. BMW's are marked up because they know people will always buy them just because of the name and logo. Also, many options on the 335 are stock on Acuras, like bluetooth, ipod integration, and REAL leather. The 3-series doesn't even come with real leather; it has leatherette instead. Adding leather is a few thousand dollar option. pretty ridiculous IMO.

noRe456

Maintenance is included for 4 yrs/50k miles or can be extended to 6 yrs/100k. i had 3 oil changes done and all 4 rotor/brake pads replaced for FREE! Goto your local Acura dealer and ask for 3 free oil changes and replacement of all 4 rotors and brake pads and wiper blades. Watch them to you.

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...e/Default.aspx

06 Acura TL

you know ill give him this much..the facts are true..but me my self...i love the stiff steering. and the bmw handles better..depends on ur preference...i love stiff sport ride.

CL6

Nothing is free that's why the BMW is more expensive.

Saintor

Ok... but ultmately, don't you want to bring home the best car instead of the best value.

Best value is just .... deceiving.

With 3rd gen, it was a fight with myself if I'd prefer a 328i or a TL.... now with the 4th gen, this is issue is cleared... back to BMW.

PetesTL

Well, if price is not a factor, then sure why not a BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus. But the fact is, the vast majority of buyers who go with Acura do so because price IS a factor.....esp. in this economy, "value" is a golden word. For less money than a 3 series, the 4G TL offers a lot more room, comfort, luxury, standard features and traditional Honda reliability and good resale value....it's not a track monster like the 3 series, but the vast majority of TL buyers/owners don't care.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol..whether the 4G TL (AWD version) is a track monster...we still need to wait for more testing.

CL6

Buying and Acura has always been a good value. The NSX was a great value and so is the MDX. The TL has tons of great technology, too. But remember, a true luxury buyer does not always consider price to be the #1 determination of "value." People may laugh when things like "prestige" or "brand" are used in conjunction with buying a car but these things are what a premium carline is... it's a soft fact not a hard one like Car A is $5,000.00 less than Car B.

I think the issue for Honda/Acura is keeping their products a good economic value while also being a luxury brand instead of spiffy Hondas. The RL never has been considered that way and I doubt the TL will. But, overall, the TL is an outstanding vehicle I think.

Maybe when the SH-AWD 6 speed comes out and a different grill you will see those cars taking business away from BMW.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think you hit the nail, if you are talking about a $50k car. The RL is good value too, but at that price point, value really doesn't mean much. That's why it didn't work (along with several other reasons such as lack of options, lack of powertrain choices, poor marketing, conservative styling, etc).

The TL and TSX for the most part are in the $30k region, where value, and thus price, is still a rather important issue. Starting at $40k, I can see why value and price are not as important though. That's where the TL SH-AWD with tech is sitting at. But it doesn't really matter for Honda if that particular model sells well or not. The majority of the buyers will buy the FWD base model anyways. If the top model sells, that's good for Acura, they know they are doing things right. If not, they can think of this as a lesson and rethink their strategy in how to sell $40k cars.

darth62

I don't think the TL is about value as much as it is about balance. It gives you most of the performance of the 3-series and G35, most of the comforts of the Lexus sedans, and most of the practicality of the Honda sedans. If you were to create a summary score across categories, the TL would beat most other vehicles.

PetesTL

Yes, the TL's (new and old) are about balance, too. But, if you surveyed TL shoppers and owners, I would bet the vast majority of them would place value high on their list. (Let's face it, Honda/Acura buyers are much more price sensitive than BMW/Mercedes/Lexus shoppers). Besides the Infiniti G35, there is no other luxury car that gives you so many features the TL has for under $40K.

lumpulus

This is something that makes me scratch my head in amazement. The fact that someone purchases any product because it makes them somehow feel better about themselves, or how their neighbor perceives them, or even if it will get them more "action" in some way DOES make me laugh.

I bought an RL because of price breaks that brought it down to a number that made sense for me to get that instead of the RDX I had originally planned to buy. That it's a "luxury" car meant nothing to me. I was more interested in the Tech features. If I had to pay the full sticker no way would I have bought one.

I like BMW's designs(except for the roadster and cuv/suv) but until the price comes way down and they become more reliable, I'll just watch them drive by.

mjangda

Hey can you tell me the HID xenon voltage K on 2009 Acura Tl, should i replace the bulb with 2008 tl s type or not? its just that 2008 Tl s type HID are more blue

CL6

I don't know many people who aspire to one day own a Timex whereas I know plenty of people who want to own a Rolex eventually.

darth62

My "flawless" 2004 TSX:

HVAC system completely dead. Replaced at a cost of about $3500 (picked up by Acura as goodwill). Unfortunately, the replacement HVAC system started acting up a week ago and the car is going back into the dealer tomorrow.

Engine mount broken.

Discolorations on hood. Acura wound up repainting the front end of the car under warranty.

Buzzing in speakers. Dealer had to take apart the doors and line the speakers with noise reduction material.

Nav/stereo unit replaced after lights on it went dim.

Condensation in front headlights.

Power window switch died.

Front dome light shorted out and had to be rewired.




This is just what I remember off the top of my head.

All things being equal, an Acura product will be far more reliable than the German makes, but these are not "flawless" cars.

S2000 Driver

The 3 Series is a Compact Car, the TL is a Mid-Size car.

This is a fundamentally flawed comparison.

The 5 Series is a Mid-Size Car and would be the appropriate model from the BMW lineup for comparison purposes.

CL6

Acura themselves compares the 5 Series with the RL which leaves the 3 Series with the TL. Not to mention the $20,000.00 price disparity between the 5 and TL.

I'm shocked the TSX had so many problems the highest quality cars used to be the RSX and the TSX.

Legend2TL

In the Acura press release for the 3G Acura introduction, Acura compared the 3G to the E39 5-Series. It's interior and exterior size was very close for the two cars. On the latest Honda Digital (Hondanews.com) they seem to not compare either the RL or TL to any other manufacturers models

cp3117

I use to think this too when all i owned was Japanese cars. Since owning my first German car for three years now, which was also a first year redesigned car all i have had is an A/C and O2 sensor issue.

While many reports show that the Asian market is overall still more reliable they are also quick to say that the Euro models are quickly improving......in turn i wouldnt venture to say that they are anywhere near flawless or far more reliable anymore.

Just look at all the issues going on at the 2G TSX forums. Some guys arent even getting home from the dealerships without problems. When i saw the new TL last week i was surprised to see the stitching in the seat coming apart and the material on the console showing huge wear. The salesman said they had the replacement parts on order and where debating about replacing the car in the showroom untill the parts came in......Makes a guy wonder how it will last after a year of steady driving.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Let's face it, every car has problems. And a lot of you have been around in this forum for a long time (darth, you've been here since 2003, for example), no doubt you have seen a lot of problems. That's normal, really. I've seen many problems for the 2G TL in the 2G TL forum too, but luckily my TL, with 150000km on it, is still running strong without any issue (except for a cracked motor mount, due to the fact that I love flooring it every once in a while). You will hear a lot of people complaining how unreliable the 2G TL is due to all the rattling noise and tranny issue. Afterall, this is a forum, people come here to complain. I mean it's pretty rare for a person to simply make a thread saying "oh my TL is so reliable." Same goes for other cars.

You might own a German car that's reliable, good for you. But there are many others that are having problems. Simple search in google you will come up with a lot of links, like the following:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1462

foglights not working...rattling...bluetooth problem...bad turbo, fuel leakage, steering wheel noise, that's only the first page of the thread....

darth62

The main point is that every make has problems. I still believe Acura is the most reliable car on the road but objected to the "flawless" characterization of the above poster.

I'd also have to say that the response of the factory to problems goes a long way in determining my satisfaction. And, Acura has stood behind the product every step of the way (at least for me) and the dealer has worked hard to resolve all problems.

paliknight

^^^i felt the exact same way. and since i dont have around 70k to blow on a car, im stickin to acura until i can afford either an AMG or an RS4 or an M series.

darth62

Actually, the base 328i RWD does 0-60 in a time that is competitive with the TL. The TL has a lot more power, of course, but it is also heavier and FWD. Because it is FWD, power transfer to the ground is less efficient.