CL6

Lexus are POS. The IS is garbage if you look at how they build it and the parts they use. "Luxury" isn't just about how a car looks from 5 feet away it's about how it's built from 5" away. If I had some of their cars and you in front of me I could show you stuff on their that you would wonder how they can call it "luxury."

Lexus sales are down HUGE when you compare to BMW and Mercedes-Benz because I think people know what poseur luxury is.

PetesTL

Lexus are "POS" huh? How many Lexus cars have you owned? Which luxury brand has the best record for quality and reliability the last 10 years? It certainly isn't BMW or Mercedes, my friend. Sorry, you lost some credibility points on that one. If Lexus never existed, BMW's would all be equipped with just "leatherette" seats right now.

darth62

Pete, I'm going to have to agree with everything you wrote (because you are just making too much damn sense here) and concede the point.

cp3117

While i agree that Lexus is tops in reliability and offers very nice luxury items (ie: the LS series) they are by no means leaders or setting the benchmark for others in terms of luxury.

When the LS was first introduced in 1989 the BMW's in the 80's (E23,E32) offered Heated and adjustable rear seats (which lexus only recently acquired), full leather, dual climate and radio control, walnut folding rear tables, leg rests and cool boxes etc.
BMW offered many other items in the 90's such as Navi before Lexus. The latest model (F01) is being made alongside the Rolls-Royce RR4 and just look at the "Individual series".

When you look at the flagships BMW is all about "Plush and Posh" if you want it, along with Performance and Handling that Lexus doesnt really have yet.

CL6

"Reliability" and "luxury" are not the same. Of course, we hope a car has both... say the Acura RL, but they are not the same. Lexus is a reliable brand overall (the Camry has had 20 recalls) but not a true "luxury" brand IMO because of all the corners they cut when they build them. Look at a new IS... the mufflers say Toyota on them and they do not even fill the entire bumper area. They use a Corrolla latch to hold the hood down (not the sturdy construction BMW and Mercedes-Benz use). If you put a Lexus IS on a lift you'll see the seats are attached with bolts through the floor of the car! If it's raining and you open the trunk on your IS all the water will run right down the rear window into your trunk... very luxurious! If you look at an RX you'll see gaps behind the steering column showing the wiring and you can easily remove the cheap plastic bezels surrounding the gauges not to mention other things like exposed bolts on the inside of the front doors as well as other things like how badly organized and cheaply made things like the mufflers are, and the poor aerodynamics underneath the car... a thing that neither the BMW or Mercedes-Benz have yet for all the corners Lexus/Toyota cuts they still charge close to what BMW/MB do. That's okay... they have great advertising.

And for BMW "leatherette" is actually standard on many models to this day... but they DO have better cupholders so I guess we have Lexus to thank for that.

The Lexus/Toyota is a car of first impressions... and I've never owned one I've only driven every model they make many times for the last 5 years when they come into where I work as trade-ins.

6SpdTerror

I too take in lots of trades of all kinds of cars. I wouldnt go as far to call Lexus a POS but im certainly not impressed by it. The IS is their entry level model but it's made very cheaply and the rest of their lineup are all dull and boring with a soft couch-like ride. They're definitely not known for their handling prowess. All that is supposed to change with the LF-A supercar but i heard that might be shelved also.

CL6

A Lexus IS350 with Navi is 45 grand. That isn't chump change for a car with a bumpy ride and a tiny backseat and you're right, it's very cheaply made. I think a true luxury car looks nice in the areas where you don't normally look like under the hood, the inside of the trunk, underneath the car, etc... These are areas where, if the investment in quality isn't made it'll clearly show and with a Lexus, they don't put the money into it.

I hadn't heard the LF-A would be shelved... interesting.

wh0lelotag00ds

what about 2009 CTS Vs. 2009 TL? My dads getting a new car, thinking about TL just because of dealership loyalty but he likes CTS as its more of a " IM A BOSS " car.

PetesTL

Well, if you want to meet the true masters of all luxury cars....look no further than a Bentley, a Maybach or a Rolls-Royce......I had a chance to ride in late model Bentley a couple summers ago from one of my bosses at work. These fine automobiles will make any BMW or Lexus look like cheap toys in comparison. Case closed.

PetesTL

I test drove a '08 CTS before getting my 4G. It's an excellent car....nice handling, good materials, and handsome design. GM did a great job with this car. Even though the upgraded V6 has 300+ hp, it didn't seem all that fast to me as the TL. During the time I was car shopping a loaded CTS was close to $45K......so I passed. I'm looking forward to the upcoming CTS coupe.....that car looks hot!

PGSberg

I owned a 07 IS 250AWD for 8 months. The first mistake was trading my 04 MINI Cooper S for the IS. I didn't spend enough time looking at the NAV/Bluetooth setup on the test drive. If I had, I wouldn't have purchased it. The car was smart enough to know that someone was sitting in the front passenger seat to turn the airbag on and off but not smart enough to release the limitations on the nav and phone. It's silly to pull over and look for a place to eat while I have someone in the car that can operate the nav while traversing the streets of downtown Baltimore. Hell, if I have to pull over, I might as well look for a pay phone. The paint on the front bumper pitted bad from day one. I keep my cars clean so you can imagine the frustration of the front brake dust build-up. The worst I have ever seen. While I didn't have a big problem getting in and out of the back seat, almost everyone bitched about contorting themselves to get in and out. Also, when nailing the gas to get onto a freeway or pass, the car simply hesitated before downshifting whether using the paddles or leaving it in auto. As far as the "Lexus experience", the dealership was great but remember you pay for the food and juice through the service prices. Lexus gets you after you buy the car where BMW options the crap out of you before you buy. At least with Lexus, you can take it to Toyota and have the same work done for a lot less. I don't care about the free car wash; they usually leave water spots on it anyway. Didn't mean to get on a soap box, I kick myself in the ass for buying the IS.
Lastly, for comparison, I noticed me as new IS buyer at the time took a beating from the previous IS generation owners like we 4G owners are getting from the 3G folks. I must be a glutten for punishment.

PGSberg

I also drove the CTS as well as some other brands. Look on the lot for a CTS that is a couple of years old. The fit, finish and materials don't seem to hold up. Hopefully, the execution is better in the new car. I didn't think the horsepower/torque was impressive enough to make me want the car. While I don't want racing seats, the Caddy seats weren't supportive enough for me. Both the TSX and TL seats fit well. The RL seats weren't impressive either. I guess I am getting old when seats are more important than the contact patch of the tires LOL!

Hugh9269

I agree the 3.6DI feels more like 275HP than 304HP. It still moves the car well enough and has a VTEC like powerband with the HP up north of the RPM range.

The nice thing is the price you pay vs sticker, my new CTS stickered for $46,680.00. No way you pay that on the street! The lease rate quote on a
4G base FWD TL was $55 more per month with $1000 more down.

Hugh9269

Even though I own one now, I am not completely sold on the Cadillac experience, but a few years down the road will be the verdict. I agree the
1st Gen CTS dated quickly and the quality of materials was questionable.
I think the 2nd Gen has improved greatly and it is a good car. The new seats offer much more support as well.

wh0lelotag00ds

i just love that CTS grill man, better than that damn shield although the color match is cool

Baapo

I am not sure how a person who's in the market for a Acura TL will also be targeting "compact, sport sedans" like the Lexus IS350 and BMW 335i...

Those two cars occupy a distinct niche and are essentially performance sedans with 0-60 times in the 5.0 secs (4.9 for the 335i) range...they don't necessarily stress luxury but performance...

Though I have to admit the IS250 AWD I tested (prior to buying my TSX) had the softest leather I have seen, and a Nav that was second to none in functionality and resolution...

The TL has moved away from this niche...it's LARGE...it's HEAVY...it's more LUXURY...more TECH...not PERFORMANCE...

JAB00

I'm just not a fan of Cadillacs. I suppose it's my bias against GM products. I hope that American auto companies have finally woken up and start building quality sedans.

----------------
Listening to: Mandalay - Beautiful (7" Canny Mix)
via FoxyTunes

CL6

The CTS does have an amazing engine... fastest lap of the 'Ring' by a production car (and on street tires!) but the plastic is cheap GM.

I'd never buy a Toyota/Lexus due to the fact that you can't use the Navi while driving... have to put it in park. That's retarded. Toyota/Lexus make the nanny car what with bluetooth, traction control not being able to be disabled and the Navi.

Generally when the transmission hesitates when you floor it it is because if it didn't do that it would break from getting slammed too hard.

The 4G TL has it in the performance and the interior and the technology but it's got a face made for radio.

shooter

I have to agree ... i have both Acura & lexus now and the inconvenience of not-being-able to use navi while you drive a lexus is just insane ...

Linnley

I just did the whole shopping thing for a sports sedan;


Acura's value cant be matched, the performance and safety are good! real good. The reliablity and TCO (total cost of ownership) is way up there - maybe even the BEST - ref: Consumer Reports. Technology in this TL, just like the 3rd GEN TL, is class leading.

This TL SH-AWD qualifies as a serious sports sedan - no question - time will show this to be a true statement. The TL has reached the next level.

You can get a base model and go out for dinner in style, or you can get the 6MT with SH-awd and go do some track days - with your buddies in the back - while listening to your IPOD!!!

Its tuff to make everyone happy - but at least Acura is trying. The ZEEE Germans think that you should compromise some comforts for all out performance - and pay us (extra 10K) for the prevalige of owning a NEW German auto!!

Please, I own a 1998 BMW540i 6sp...love it, but got it with 48Km and a discount is 75% off MSRP...I love my USED German car - but when I buy new, the cars from Japan are hard to beat!

cheers all.

darth62

It is dumb, but there is a inexpensive "lockpick" module you can buy for the Lexus/Toyota navigation. Infiniti's is not pickable though, unfortunately.

Right now, I think BMW, M-B, and Acura/Honda are the only brands with no lock-out.

Baapo

Let's be fair here...

In 2006, Lexus did not allow you to disable VSC...by 2007, you very much could...

Needing a Nav override is a big disappointment...and the saleman was very upfront about it when I test drove the IS250-AWD (before settling for the 2009 Acura TSX Tech)...though, admittedly, it's very easy to get the over-ride...

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

my understanding is that in 06- you could disable the VSC it just wasnt as easy. for 07 they changed it. at least, that's what i heard about the 06.

KeithL

Don;t get me wrong, I love Acura I have owned 5 3G Tls, but what exactly is class leading in the 4G, the Navia rez? Just about any car I look at has Bluetooth, navi, voice command, IPOD integration, heated seats (some even have cooled), keyless entry and push to start and most offer AWD, so while I think Acura is a great value, I'm not sure I would call the technology class leading any more.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

For example, some manufacturers still use dvd-navi, Acura is using hdd (along with a few other car makers), then there's the weather Doppler map (not necessary useful to me..but hey, that's new tech in a car!). Then SH-AWD is not a typical AWD system, there are many types of AWD systems out there, some full-time, some part-time, some can split torque at any moment, some cannot, and so far SH-AWD is one of the best, if not the best already. Perhaps DPC is better since it's basically an improved version of the system. But then, how often do you see a German prestige brand copies a Japanese brand? I think this shows that Acura is still "up there" with the tech department.

Then there's the controversial Acura track event where the 6MT TL SH-AWD spanked the competition....

6SpdTerror

What about nav traffic and weather forecasts?? I think acura was the first with both of those.

PetesTL

True, but in my opinion, nobody has implemented these technologies as well as Acura has for the past 5 years or so. I think the live weather radar and forecasts are a first...and they also came out with Nav traffic before anybody else. Also, the voice command in the 4G is the most sophisticated on the market....the extent of the vocabulary is amazing and I love the fact that it will read out the song list from CD's or the hard disk so that you don't have to look at the screen while driving. Of course, Acura's NAV, to me, is the best there is out there.....very accurate, links very well to voice command, and the addition of Zagat restaurant survey info. is a nice plus.

CL6

A 5 speed automatic is a serious gap... not to mention the fuel savings with going to a 6 speed.

KeithL

I will agree, I love the Acura implementation of their voice command and navi. And I will concede on the weather stuff, but one could argue they are missing some stuff too, like cooled seats and backup sensors, etc. Don;t get me wrong I want to like the 4G, I loved all my 3G TLs and wanted a 4G so bad until I saw it. I think the 4G is a nice car if you liek the styling, I have loved the value Acura has packed in their cars.

KeithL

Hell look at what a 7 spd auto does for the G37 Sedan, it take abysmal MPG and makes it repsectable, expectially since they have not been know for decent feul mileage. But then Honda has not had much luck mating autos to V6's so do we really want to be the beta testers for a new tranny on a 300HP car?

darth62

backup sensors are a dealer installed option (I believe). Other cars in this class have either b-up cameras (G35, Maxima) or sensors (3-series). I believe the TL is the only vehicle to offer both.

CL6

7 speed might be overkill but 6 is the bare minimum now. Acura's lead on technology is almost over. the DVD-A format is dead, many cars offer HD-based Navi systems (even Mercedes-Benz' system which has never been user friendly is HD-based and voice activated), and Infiniti has that cool "overhead" view when you park. SH-AWD (or torque vectoring by its generic name) is offered by other car makers like Subaru, SAAB, and BMW I believe so Acura has its reliability, Honda brand loyalty, and price advantage in its favor I think. The ugly snout is a big problem but this is subjective and only time will tell.

PetesTL

I don't know why anyone would need BOTH back-up sensors and a back-up camera......if you can't back-up properly wih one or the other, you shouldn't be driving. Remember the good 'ol days when all you had to do was turn your head back to see what was behind you?

Hugh9269

I had a big bias as well before the purchase. Never owned a GM product. The quality of GM cars have come along way IMHO.

I looked at just about everything VW CC, 335ix, Maxima, 4G TL, G35X (since the G37 are not out here) and Audi A4. It just came down to value, features, performance (although it is close enough) and really the most important, payment for me. I just could not wing $125 more a month for a 4G SHAWD.

If the Caddy does not hold up well, I will definantly be back to the Acura camp...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think that's why they are coming up with weather forecast (doppler map or something like that), traffic report, and stuff like that to keep themselves ahead. Sooner or later other makers will catch up to these too. But this is what "leading" means, others actually follow you. Same with torque-vectoring AWD, it took others some time to come up with DPC (from BMW), XWD (from Saab), s-awc (from Mitsubishi), and the newest sport differential from Audi.

IMO, it's not that Honda doesn't want to make a 6AT (or 7AT..8AT, or even dual clutch). The problem is they don't have the resources as I have said several times. They might have the money, but they don't have enough people. They are too diversified - cars, bikes, atv's, lawnmowers, robots, and even jets.

kobi2002

If you go to clublexus.com they do have a nav overide so you can drive and use nav at the same time

kobi2002

Actually weather is offered on the mercury cars so they are not leading just tied.

CL6

I don't buy the resources bit. Going from 5 to 6 speeds increases fuel economy by a few MPG you can't tell me with Honda's philosophy of being fuel efficient that they don't want to do that. Also they have enough lines of cars to spread the transmission over so many different kinds of models. When even the VW Jetta has more gears than the RL that's not good, either.

The Honda jet, BTW, was pretty much designed by one guy and he didn't use a lot of people for most of that project:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9ecc954c-9...18c,s01=1.html

Doppler radar and all that is nice eye candy and if you're into the whole "Honda philosophy" it's great but most people don't know/care. Do I need a weather report on my dash? No, I'll look outside it doesn't add value to me personally. I think Honda and Mercedes-Benz spend the most on R&D and have invented some fantastic things when it comes to automobiles but not adding an extra gear? That's what Joe Blow looks at when he sees the competition has 6 or 7 speeds in their cars...

You can go over the top like Lexus and have an 8 speed transmission but that's just for bragging rights but the point is that sizzle sells even if it is BS.

I worked for Acura for 4 years and while I greatly respect their philosophy they are behind the game on SMG transmissions, 6 speed automatics, marketing their products, and most recently, styling.

I don't buy the resources argument, sorry!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

kobi2002, I think you are talking about the Mercury Mountaineer, it does have weather forecast, but i don't think it has the doppler weather map.

CL6, no, again, I didn't say they don't want to do this or that. They don't have the resources. Obviously they know 6 ratios is better than 5, that's why they have 6MT. Unlike other automakers though, Honda likes developing its own products, that's why you rarely see systems made by other companies. For example, you will see many cars out there that have gearboxes designed by Jatco, Aisin, ZF, Getrag, etc. Honda? They make their own.

VW? That's a huge company, much MUCH bigger than Honda.

Yes, nobody really cares about doppler map, I myself don't care about it. But aren't we talking about luxury here? Dictionary.com defines "luxury" as,

"a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity."

Notice the last part, "rather than a necessity." We don't need auto headlights, auto wipers...in fact, a lot of luxury features that we have are not necessary (obviously..). My dad for one, considers a car is simply a "transportation device" to get him from point A to point B. But since we are talking about luxury cars, we are talking about tech in cars, that's why I bought up the "doppler map" feature.

Btw, one of the guys at Honda confirmed they are indeed working on a 6AT. I have no idea when it will be ready though.

It's too bad that you don't like the "resources" argument, I really think that's one of the reasons a 6AT isn't out yet. By the way, what do you mean by SMG gearbox? Do you mean clutchless manual gearbox? I don't think many companies have (or had) been successful with that, besides Ferrari, and arguably Alfa Romeo. While it offers great performance, it lacks refinement. It's more suitable to sports cars rather than luxury cars. For example, Maserati Quattroporte recently withdrew from using this type of transmission and go with a traditional automatic transmission with torque-converter. By the way, this new automatic transmission is the same one found in a BMW 7 series. Jaguar XJ, and Aston Martin DB9. This proves my point how many manufacturers share parts/components/systems.

Or did you mean twin-clutch design? As far as I know, both DSG of VW and GR6 in the GTR are supplied by the same company - BorgWarner.

CL6

The Toyota MR2 had an SMG transmission and Audi has one and Subaru I think has one, too, as does BMW (a small company indeed). If Honda can develop a hybrid (Insight), turbo (RDX), clean diesel (Euro Accord), jet (Honda Jet), and a robot (ASIMO) then they can develop a 6AT. Honda has gone outside to get products from other companies before (Passport/Isuzu Trooper) they can manage to get an extra gear for their slush boxes. It's not like they are reinventing the wheel, after all.

My statement about Doppler radar wasn't that it is not 'luxurious' but that the average Joe cares more about an extra gear when cross-shopping cars than a weather map and Honda should have spent their $$ there instead.