2009 Acura Tl vs. 2009 BMW 335xi
10-29-2008, 11:23 PM
#122
Not an Ashtray
First of all, this isn't really a serious issue since we're just shooting the shit here wasting time when we should be working or doing the chores. 
Here's that link to Motortrends review of 4G TL SH-AWD with manual transmission coming next year:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ual/index.html
Once again, on the track, the TL handily beats the 335's along with the G35 and Audi "S"4. But once again, this is a peformance test and not a real world drivability test.
Car companies don't develop and release cars in lock step so there is always going to be points in time when one car is better than another in whatever grading system is chosen.
But the overall pattern is clear:
BMW makes cars that are better for driving in typical real world situations.
Honda makes cars with better performance at the limits and higher quality, ergonomics, reliability and value.
Btw, I would really like to see a track race between a 3G Type S MT and 4G TL SH-AWD MT. I'm betting that the 4G would win.
Here's that link to Motortrends review of 4G TL SH-AWD with manual transmission coming next year:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ual/index.html
Once again, on the track, the TL handily beats the 335's along with the G35 and Audi "S"4. But once again, this is a peformance test and not a real world drivability test.
Car companies don't develop and release cars in lock step so there is always going to be points in time when one car is better than another in whatever grading system is chosen.
But the overall pattern is clear:
BMW makes cars that are better for driving in typical real world situations.
Honda makes cars with better performance at the limits and higher quality, ergonomics, reliability and value.
Btw, I would really like to see a track race between a 3G Type S MT and 4G TL SH-AWD MT. I'm betting that the 4G would win.
First of all, what you are linking to here is Motor Trends' coverage of an event sponsored by Acura. That is the least trustworthy of all the sources we've said here. I still don't see one wit of evidence that Acura makes vehicles that "handle better at the limits...." In fact, the best tests of that are probably the emergency handling tests that Consumer Reports tests (basically high speed avoidance of barriers in the road). The 3-series and G35 both kicked the snot out the previous generation base TL (CR never tested the TL-S).
Second, I never claimed that the 3-series was "better for driving in every day situations...." I said it HANDLES better. That doesn't mean that it accelerates better or rides better. Nor, btw, did I ever suggest the 3-series is a better car overall (which I don't believe).
10-29-2008, 11:29 PM
#123
Not an Ashtray
Well, the G37 isn't even out yet, so who knows what the reliability will be. The previous G35 had pretty good reliability, but I don't think it was as good as the 3G. I doubt, though, that you would be able to get a '09 G37 under $40K as comparably equipped as the TL Tech. Both are solid cars. You really can't go wrong with either one. Maybe after my lease is up in a couple years, I'll give the G37X a much closer look....unless Acura unleashes a new type S, of course.
Consumer Reports 2008 data is on their website. The G was every bit as reliable as the TL.
40 grand exceeds the MSRP on a G37 with nav and premium (basically equipped equivalently to a TL). The MSRP will coem to about 39,000 and discounts should bring it down to about 37,000.
I don't personally think the G is better all around than the TL. I just think it is sportier. The TL offers a better ride, more space, and better ergonomics. So, I can see how some would choose the TL over the G.
10-29-2008, 11:36 PM
#124
Not an Ashtray
well Darth I was mostly replying to when you said
"Second, all the racetrack results in the world won't convince me that the 3G TL-S or 4G TL handles as well as G35 or BMW 335i. There is no way a front heavy FWD will handle better than a RWD Beemer or Infiniti."
I'm just trying to prove to you that it can and it does
when it comes to 4G i post a link where edmunds drove the SH-AWD 6MT and they said it was better than all the others, not only did the event have the top dogs in the segment, it also had them in their sportiest package. The journalists all got the same result of the SH-AWD being on top
"Second, all the racetrack results in the world won't convince me that the 3G TL-S or 4G TL handles as well as G35 or BMW 335i. There is no way a front heavy FWD will handle better than a RWD Beemer or Infiniti."
I'm just trying to prove to you that it can and it does
when it comes to 4G i post a link where edmunds drove the SH-AWD 6MT and they said it was better than all the others, not only did the event have the top dogs in the segment, it also had them in their sportiest package. The journalists all got the same result of the SH-AWD being on top
That is even less convincing that your racetrack results.
What I want to see is full out roadtests but reputable sources (CR, Motor Trend, Car and Driver). Those sort of tests hardly support your perspective on the TL.
And, let me once again be clear, that I don't think the 3 G TL-S or 4 G base TL are inferior cars to the 3-series. Quite the contrary. I think Acura vehicles, overall, make a lot more sense than the more costly BMWs. My comments were about handling and interior material quality only.
Final comment: I did buy a BMW 3-series myself (its on the boat on the way to the states). But, NOT because the 3-series handles better than the TL or because it is a better car overall. I needed a wagon because of my active outdoor lifestyle. I would have bought the RDX if it had a V6 and a decent ride, because I've been so happy with my Acuras over the years. $ for $, I don't think there is a better buy in the upscale market than the TL - with the only possible exception being a G37.
10-29-2008, 11:53 PM
#125
FPR pimpin'
My friend how is it biased just because it is an acura event, edmunds, the TOV guys and C/D were there and ALL got the same results as the acura test pilot.
I'm sorry man but you're just not making sense. I dont know why you rate CR so high when they arent even testing lap times or something... how do emergency manouevers relate to handling.
And just to make sure, im not fighting, arguing or trying to be disrespectful
I'm sorry man but you're just not making sense. I dont know why you rate CR so high when they arent even testing lap times or something... how do emergency manouevers relate to handling.
And just to make sure, im not fighting, arguing or trying to be disrespectful
10-30-2008, 01:21 AM
#126
Not an Ashtray
How often do you have to swerve to avoid something while you are driving (which is basically what the "obstacle courses" set up by CR, Edmunds, and othere test)? That actually does happen for many drivers.
We may get heated here every once and a while. But, we are all friends. Car guys are passionate!
10-30-2008, 01:40 AM
#127
The reason why this test was biased is because Acura hosted the test at the Honda proving grounds comparing a Pre-Production car where the other competitors where 2 year older outdated models.
There would have been more credibility if they actual used current year production cars where they all had 19" wheels available etc etc.
Do the people actually attending a Honda backed event think that the competitors cars provided would actually beat out their's.....That would have been poor marketing on Honda's part.
10-30-2008, 01:49 AM
#128
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Acura needs to focus on either sportiness or luxury. Like Lexus focuses primarily on luxury, BMW focuses on sportiness with a hint of luxury. Also, they need to start making RWD cars with more upscale and higher quality interior (with a real wood trim, if they put one, not like the fake plastic ones in the old TLs).
I just feel that it's probably a great car, but needs to have one theme that it should focus on and build on it. The beemers always look classy, they don't try to out do their designs.. lexus is more flashy though. The previous Acuras really looked good, the new ones are just trying too hard.. That's one thing Acura needs to re-think, i.e. stick to a design philosophy. To me, seems like the mid level and upper level management at Acura don't know their stuff..
To build a great brand you need to have some attitude...
I just feel that it's probably a great car, but needs to have one theme that it should focus on and build on it. The beemers always look classy, they don't try to out do their designs.. lexus is more flashy though. The previous Acuras really looked good, the new ones are just trying too hard.. That's one thing Acura needs to re-think, i.e. stick to a design philosophy. To me, seems like the mid level and upper level management at Acura don't know their stuff..
To build a great brand you need to have some attitude...
10-30-2008, 07:17 AM
#129
This thread is like beating a dead horse! To re-cap...i have nothing against BMW and i would actually own an M model. But for me to get a run of the mill 3 series just to say: "i drive a beemer".....doesnt make much sense to me. Acura provides everything i want at a reasonable price and looks damn good whilst doing it. I personally like the 4g and will more than likely trade up to the 6MT next year.
For those of you who want a 328 or 335....more power to you.
BTW i understand the resistance the 4g is getting from current 3g owners but that's inevitable. People dont like change.........you should see how the current NSX guys are flaming the new V10 front engine replacement!
For those of you who want a 328 or 335....more power to you.
BTW i understand the resistance the 4g is getting from current 3g owners but that's inevitable. People dont like change.........you should see how the current NSX guys are flaming the new V10 front engine replacement!
10-30-2008, 07:31 AM
#130
FPR pimpin'
How often do you do high speeds around laps in real life? I don't know about you, but I've never had to that.
How often do you have to swerve to avoid something while you are driving (which is basically what the "obstacle courses" set up by CR, Edmunds, and othere test)? That actually does happen for many drivers.
How often do you have to swerve to avoid something while you are driving (which is basically what the "obstacle courses" set up by CR, Edmunds, and othere test)? That actually does happen for many drivers.
when it comes to the emergency maneuvers you may very well be right about the 3 series being better as I have no idea about the facts on that
Originally Posted by cp3117
The reason why this test was biased is because Acura hosted the test at the Honda proving grounds comparing a Pre-Production car where the other competitors where 2 year older outdated models.
There would have been more credibility if they actual used current year production cars where they all had 19" wheels available etc etc.
There would have been more credibility if they actual used current year production cars where they all had 19" wheels available etc etc.
10-30-2008, 07:32 AM
#131
FPR pimpin'
unless you mean that since the TL is coming in a year and the others are getting improvements in that time that the test is biased?
If so... how would Honda go about getting the competitors future models?
If so... how would Honda go about getting the competitors future models?
10-30-2008, 08:39 AM
#132
When the SH-AWD 6MT is finally released for the 2010 model year, all the other manufacturers will have updated versions ie: updated drivetrains, wheels etc etc. Then the comparo will be all 2010 models. (example: The S4 they used is now discontinued and was at the end of its production run compared to the new S4 version with S/C 3.0L 333hp, 7sp DSG, torque vectoring, 19" wheels etc) If Honda wanted to compare it to an S4 they should have waited for the comparable model years to compete but you can easily see why they didnt. I also assume for 2010 the 335i will get a power boost and wheel upgrade etc.
It would be similar if BMW hosted a track day with the 335i a couple years before its production and compared it to a 2G TL and then bragged about how much superior it was......it was nothing more than a marketing stunt by Honda.
10-30-2008, 08:47 AM
#133
If they wanted to do an unbiased comparo why didnt they compare the cars to a SH-AWD with the 5AT that is in current production...................I think well all know the answer and results to that one.
I dont blame Honda for doing what they did because its all about making money but you sure cant put a lot of weight behind their test.
10-30-2008, 09:22 AM
#134
Three Wheelin'
Consumer Reports 2008 data is on their website. The G was every bit as reliable as the TL.
40 grand exceeds the MSRP on a G37 with nav and premium (basically equipped equivalently to a TL). The MSRP will coem to about 39,000 and discounts should bring it down to about 37,000.
I don't personally think the G is better all around than the TL. I just think it is sportier. The TL offers a better ride, more space, and better ergonomics. So, I can see how some would choose the TL over the G.
40 grand exceeds the MSRP on a G37 with nav and premium (basically equipped equivalently to a TL). The MSRP will coem to about 39,000 and discounts should bring it down to about 37,000.
I don't personally think the G is better all around than the TL. I just think it is sportier. The TL offers a better ride, more space, and better ergonomics. So, I can see how some would choose the TL over the G.
10-30-2008, 10:11 AM
#135
FPR pimpin'
yikes.. obviously it was for marketing.. to show what is coming probably build a fan base for the 6MT but its not like comparing a 335i and a 2g TL those are yearrsss apart
I'm very interested to see what will happen when the car actually comes out against the upgraded players
and yea that G37 with 7spd sounds good... but no manual = fail in my books
I'm very interested to see what will happen when the car actually comes out against the upgraded players
and yea that G37 with 7spd sounds good... but no manual = fail in my books
10-30-2008, 10:26 AM
#136
Senior Moderator
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The G37S comes in a manual as well.
10-30-2008, 11:08 AM
#138
Senior Moderator
i heard that when the 7sp comes out its only gonna be auto... in the racing forum a current thread about racing a G37
That's because the MT that is available with the G37 is a 6 Speed
I don't think a 7 Speed MT exists.
10-30-2008, 11:33 AM
#139
Not an Ashtray
You're right, Darth, a G37 sedan Journey w/Premium and Nav comes out to a little over $39K. Not bad. I would definately choose this over a 335i. To me, though, Infiniti should have upgraded the interior and exterior somewhat and not just the engine and drivetrain......it looks identical to the '07-08.
I like the exterior of the G quite a bit. But, the interior is a notch below the TL in ergonomics and two notches below the German makes in interior quality. Just as a silly example, when I lift up the lid to get to the cup holders on the TSX, I feel this thick heavy lid. The plastics in my car just scream quality and you don't find that in a G35. My younger sister has one on lease, and I honestly think the interiors in the last generation Accords were nicer.
10-30-2008, 11:43 AM
#140
Not an Ashtray
Acura needs to focus on either sportiness or luxury. Like Lexus focuses primarily on luxury, BMW focuses on sportiness with a hint of luxury. Also, they need to start making RWD cars with more upscale and higher quality interior (with a real wood trim, if they put one, not like the fake plastic ones in the old TLs).
I just feel that it's probably a great car, but needs to have one theme that it should focus on and build on it. The beemers always look classy, they don't try to out do their designs.. lexus is more flashy though. The previous Acuras really looked good, the new ones are just trying too hard.. That's one thing Acura needs to re-think, i.e. stick to a design philosophy. To me, seems like the mid level and upper level management at Acura don't know their stuff..
To build a great brand you need to have some attitude...
I just feel that it's probably a great car, but needs to have one theme that it should focus on and build on it. The beemers always look classy, they don't try to out do their designs.. lexus is more flashy though. The previous Acuras really looked good, the new ones are just trying too hard.. That's one thing Acura needs to re-think, i.e. stick to a design philosophy. To me, seems like the mid level and upper level management at Acura don't know their stuff..
To build a great brand you need to have some attitude...
10-30-2008, 12:30 PM
#141
FPR pimpin'
10-30-2008, 01:13 PM
#142
Advanced
Thread Starter
lets not make this into an audi a4 vs. acura tl comparison thread now!! but audi a4's are scrappy. the interior is sloppy compared to a tl. bottom line is i really do not care for audi a4's and i dont see how anyone can compare them with the tl in any aspect.just my 
10-30-2008, 02:16 PM
#143
Not an Ashtray
We had an A4 1.8T (previous generation of the A4). It did have much more upscale materials on the interior and felt like more of a luxury vehicle than my TSX. It was also grossly unreliable. We sold it at 37,000 miles because it had so many problems.
10-30-2008, 04:03 PM
#144
Personally, I think Honda quality is overrated.
Honda owned so far
92 Accord LX- Warped brakes, Airbag did not deploy in a front accident
94 Accord EX- Warped Brakes, Damaged Sunroof tracks, rattle, broken AC compressor (twice)
98 Accord LX V6- Warped brakes, rattles
00 TL- warped brakes (went through 3 set of brakes), defective touch screen, broken center console box, transmission, rattles, rattles
07 Oddysey EX-L R+N- Warped brakes, Defective navi touch panel, warped D-pillar trims, wapred A pillar trims. Rattles. Gets 15 to 16 mpg.
None of the honda I have owned are trouble free.
BMW owned thus far
01 530i- Final stage resistor on the AC fan went out, on occaision navi system would crash
03 M3- broken moonroof interior panel, rattle from passenger seat
03 M5- O-ring problem.
06 M5- Steerng angel sensor failed
08 M3- No issues thus far.
Mechanically I think BMW are far superior than any Honda/Acura i have owned. Despite the abuse, i never had any kind of warped brake or transmission blew up on me.
Several years ago, i did a quick comparison on ownership cost between my 00 TL and 01 530i. TL ended up costing me a lot more to own as compare to my 530i.
Honda owned so far
92 Accord LX- Warped brakes, Airbag did not deploy in a front accident
94 Accord EX- Warped Brakes, Damaged Sunroof tracks, rattle, broken AC compressor (twice)
98 Accord LX V6- Warped brakes, rattles
00 TL- warped brakes (went through 3 set of brakes), defective touch screen, broken center console box, transmission, rattles, rattles
07 Oddysey EX-L R+N- Warped brakes, Defective navi touch panel, warped D-pillar trims, wapred A pillar trims. Rattles. Gets 15 to 16 mpg.
None of the honda I have owned are trouble free.
BMW owned thus far
01 530i- Final stage resistor on the AC fan went out, on occaision navi system would crash
03 M3- broken moonroof interior panel, rattle from passenger seat
03 M5- O-ring problem.
06 M5- Steerng angel sensor failed
08 M3- No issues thus far.
Mechanically I think BMW are far superior than any Honda/Acura i have owned. Despite the abuse, i never had any kind of warped brake or transmission blew up on me.
Several years ago, i did a quick comparison on ownership cost between my 00 TL and 01 530i. TL ended up costing me a lot more to own as compare to my 530i.
10-30-2008, 04:42 PM
#146
I really like Acura interiors over the other japanese luxury brands as they have a sporty and luxury look to them.....now if they could only upgrade the materials to match the look.
http://www.germancarblog.com/2005/05...s-in-2005.html
I believe this year the TT, A3 and Q7 took home some awards for their category.
Every year they are winning awards with one model or another and surprisingly the North American manufactuers are starting to win lots of these awards.
10-30-2008, 05:02 PM
#147
Although i believe Honda produces very good quality cars, I will agree that i believe they are a little overrated also.
The German cars seem to be improving lots while the japanese are slowly heading the other direction....but still leading. (Even NA cars are improving dramatically).
In 2006 i purchased a GLI/2.0T over a TSX for many different reasons (incl luxury, perf, price, etc). The only reason why i almost didnt was all the hype over VW reliabilty. In just over 3 years its the most reliable car I have ever owned (and i was mainly a asian/NA car owner before). I have had 3 minor problems fixed during oil changes and 1 major A/C issued that was fixed really quick (none left me stranded) and this was a first year totally redesigned car.
Just look at all the issues the 2G TSX is having especially with their engine pinging problems (looks like a recall will be coming soon) and the TSX is made in Japan.
I remember people here complaining about the reliabilty of the 3G TL and it being made here in NA. Hopefully the 4G being in its introductory year wont have similar issues as the 2G TSX.
The German cars seem to be improving lots while the japanese are slowly heading the other direction....but still leading. (Even NA cars are improving dramatically).
In 2006 i purchased a GLI/2.0T over a TSX for many different reasons (incl luxury, perf, price, etc). The only reason why i almost didnt was all the hype over VW reliabilty. In just over 3 years its the most reliable car I have ever owned (and i was mainly a asian/NA car owner before). I have had 3 minor problems fixed during oil changes and 1 major A/C issued that was fixed really quick (none left me stranded) and this was a first year totally redesigned car.
Just look at all the issues the 2G TSX is having especially with their engine pinging problems (looks like a recall will be coming soon) and the TSX is made in Japan.
I remember people here complaining about the reliabilty of the 3G TL and it being made here in NA. Hopefully the 4G being in its introductory year wont have similar issues as the 2G TSX.
10-30-2008, 06:03 PM
#148
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All these talk about reliability got me interested...I also remember someone mentioning how great Consumer Report is so I went to google and searched for "consumer reports reliability" and the first link I got is this:
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...tentid=4023544
Here are some quotes,
"Of the 47 vehicles on the most-reliable list, 39 were from Japanese automakers. Six came from the domestic automakers, and one each came from South Korea and Europe. Twenty-one Toyota vehicles earned top ratings. Honda had 11 vehicles at the top of our ratings. Ford, General Motors, and Subaru each had three, Mitsubishi and Nissan each had two, while Hyundai and Mini each had one."
"Of the 45 least reliable models, 19 were European, 20 were from U.S. manufacturers, 5 were Japanese, and 1 was South Korean. General Motors had 12, Mercedes-Benz had 8, Ford and Nissan each had 5, Chrysler and Volkswagen each had 3, BMW and Jaguar each had 2, while Kia, Land Rover, Porsche, Saab, and Volvo each had 1."
Most Reliable:
SMALL CARS: Honda Fit*, Toyota Yaris*, Honda Civic Hybrid*, Toyota Corolla.
FAMILY CARS: Honda Accord Hybrid, Toyota Prius, Honda Accord (4-cyl.), Ford Fusion*, Mercury Milan*.
UPSCALE/LARGE CARS: Lexus ES350*, Lincoln Zephyr*, Hyundai Azera*, Acura TSX, Acura TL.
LUXURY CARS: Lexus LS (2006), Infiniti M*.
Least Reliable:
SMALL CARS: Chevrolet Cobalt, Nissan Sentra (2006), Volkswagen Jetta (5-cyl.), Chevrolet Aveo.
FAMILY CARS: Volkswagen Passat (4-cyl.)*
UPSCALE/LARGE CARS: Jaguar X-Type, Chrysler 300 (V8), Saab 9-3.
LUXURY CARS: Cadillac STS (V8), Mercedes-Benz S-Class (2006), Mercedes-Benz CLS*, Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedan, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar S-Type.
As for the Acura sponsored event for the 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT, it's obviously marketing by Honda. That's why I didn't mention about that test, I only mentioned about the two tests for the 3G TL-S where both were conducted by a professional race car driver who is very well known and respected by true car enthusiasts. They did that test so that people will wait longer (may or may not work). The thing is, the normal 4G TL FWD and TL SH-AWD 5AT aren't very sporty, this is disappointing for a lot of 3G owners. The fact that there's no 6MT in the option list made them even more disappointed. Honda/Acura obviously doesn't want that to happen, that's why they want to let people know there's a 6MT model coming and they want people to know it's sporty.
IMHO, I don't think the S4 should even be in that test when it's like 20k more than the TL SH-AWD. It's simply in another class in terms of price. But I guess it was included just to make things more interesting? The new S4 with the optional torque vectoring AWD and the new SC V6 should be much faster than the 2008 S4. For the 335i, I don't know if there will be any changes for 2010, since it just received a mid-life makeover for the 2009 model. As far as I know there are major changes for the 335i (ie no power hike). The 2009 G37 sedan 7AT, it would be interesting to see how it goes against the TL SH-AWD as well as a 3G TL-S 6MT. The 6MT model apparently isn't any faster according to Car and Driver due to the added 120lb (no idea where all this weight is coming from when the car is still the same size...).
http://autos.msn.com/advice/CRArt.as...tentid=4023544
Here are some quotes,
"Of the 47 vehicles on the most-reliable list, 39 were from Japanese automakers. Six came from the domestic automakers, and one each came from South Korea and Europe. Twenty-one Toyota vehicles earned top ratings. Honda had 11 vehicles at the top of our ratings. Ford, General Motors, and Subaru each had three, Mitsubishi and Nissan each had two, while Hyundai and Mini each had one."
"Of the 45 least reliable models, 19 were European, 20 were from U.S. manufacturers, 5 were Japanese, and 1 was South Korean. General Motors had 12, Mercedes-Benz had 8, Ford and Nissan each had 5, Chrysler and Volkswagen each had 3, BMW and Jaguar each had 2, while Kia, Land Rover, Porsche, Saab, and Volvo each had 1."
Most Reliable:
SMALL CARS: Honda Fit*, Toyota Yaris*, Honda Civic Hybrid*, Toyota Corolla.
FAMILY CARS: Honda Accord Hybrid, Toyota Prius, Honda Accord (4-cyl.), Ford Fusion*, Mercury Milan*.
UPSCALE/LARGE CARS: Lexus ES350*, Lincoln Zephyr*, Hyundai Azera*, Acura TSX, Acura TL.
LUXURY CARS: Lexus LS (2006), Infiniti M*.
Least Reliable:
SMALL CARS: Chevrolet Cobalt, Nissan Sentra (2006), Volkswagen Jetta (5-cyl.), Chevrolet Aveo.
FAMILY CARS: Volkswagen Passat (4-cyl.)*
UPSCALE/LARGE CARS: Jaguar X-Type, Chrysler 300 (V8), Saab 9-3.
LUXURY CARS: Cadillac STS (V8), Mercedes-Benz S-Class (2006), Mercedes-Benz CLS*, Mercedes-Benz E-Class Sedan, BMW 7 Series, Jaguar S-Type.
As for the Acura sponsored event for the 2010 TL SH-AWD 6MT, it's obviously marketing by Honda. That's why I didn't mention about that test, I only mentioned about the two tests for the 3G TL-S where both were conducted by a professional race car driver who is very well known and respected by true car enthusiasts. They did that test so that people will wait longer (may or may not work). The thing is, the normal 4G TL FWD and TL SH-AWD 5AT aren't very sporty, this is disappointing for a lot of 3G owners. The fact that there's no 6MT in the option list made them even more disappointed. Honda/Acura obviously doesn't want that to happen, that's why they want to let people know there's a 6MT model coming and they want people to know it's sporty.
IMHO, I don't think the S4 should even be in that test when it's like 20k more than the TL SH-AWD. It's simply in another class in terms of price. But I guess it was included just to make things more interesting? The new S4 with the optional torque vectoring AWD and the new SC V6 should be much faster than the 2008 S4. For the 335i, I don't know if there will be any changes for 2010, since it just received a mid-life makeover for the 2009 model. As far as I know there are major changes for the 335i (ie no power hike). The 2009 G37 sedan 7AT, it would be interesting to see how it goes against the TL SH-AWD as well as a 3G TL-S 6MT. The 6MT model apparently isn't any faster according to Car and Driver due to the added 120lb (no idea where all this weight is coming from when the car is still the same size...).
10-30-2008, 06:28 PM
#149
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10-30-2008, 06:44 PM
#150
Not an Ashtray
On the A4 we had, the buttons on the dash would spontaneously melt. It is hard to describe, but you'd come out to the car in the morning, and buttons would have big holes in the middle - like somebody had stuck a burning match into the middle of them. Eventually, the entire A/C system died (which, btw, also happened to my TSX a year later).
That said, my TSX had lots of problems. HVAC died, broken engine mount, needed new nav faceplate after lights on it burned out, speakers buzzed and rattled, headlights developed condensation, power door switch stopped working, multiple incidents of warped brakes. All cars have some problems.
10-30-2008, 06:45 PM
#151
Not an Ashtray
Each are entitled to their own opinion of course, but Audi interiors are recognized in the world automotive community as the interior design leader.
I really like Acura interiors over the other japanese luxury brands as they have a sporty and luxury look to them.....now if they could only upgrade the materials to match the look.
http://www.germancarblog.com/2005/05...s-in-2005.html
I believe this year the TT, A3 and Q7 took home some awards for their category.
Every year they are winning awards with one model or another and surprisingly the North American manufactuers are starting to win lots of these awards.
I really like Acura interiors over the other japanese luxury brands as they have a sporty and luxury look to them.....now if they could only upgrade the materials to match the look.
http://www.germancarblog.com/2005/05...s-in-2005.html
I believe this year the TT, A3 and Q7 took home some awards for their category.
Every year they are winning awards with one model or another and surprisingly the North American manufactuers are starting to win lots of these awards.
10-30-2008, 08:21 PM
#152
Three Wheelin'
Well, with everything being global these days, very few cars have more than the majority of its components come from the country of origin. I bet the vast majority of plastics or silicon, or aluminum, or computer chips whether it is from BMW, Acura, or Lexus come from the same run-down sub-contracted factory in China. If you look at the details, it's sometimes hard these days to know which car is truly an import. Acura's should technically be called "domestics" since so many of their models now are made in the US. BTW, the switches, knobs, and the leather in my 4G feels every bit as sturdy and well-put together as what I had in my previous BMW's.
10-30-2008, 10:49 PM
#153
My only car is a Bus
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It is only natural due to economies of scale. Mercedes produces the E, CL, CLS, G, and S only in Germany. Some Cs are built in S. Africa. I believe almost all BMWs are built in Germany except for the crappy X3 and maybe the X5 now.
Under the new Federal bailout plan for the automakers only Honda qualifies because they've been in the States for at least 20 years.
My domestically built CL has excellent quality and materials and I'm very happy with my 'domestic' car. The X3 has plastic about as soft as concrete.
Under the new Federal bailout plan for the automakers only Honda qualifies because they've been in the States for at least 20 years.
My domestically built CL has excellent quality and materials and I'm very happy with my 'domestic' car. The X3 has plastic about as soft as concrete.
10-30-2008, 11:12 PM
#154
Not an Ashtray
Well, with everything being global these days, very few cars have more than the majority of its components come from the country of origin. I bet the vast majority of plastics or silicon, or aluminum, or computer chips whether it is from BMW, Acura, or Lexus come from the same run-down sub-contracted factory in China. If you look at the details, it's sometimes hard these days to know which car is truly an import. Acura's should technically be called "domestics" since so many of their models now are made in the US. BTW, the switches, knobs, and the leather in my 4G feels every bit as sturdy and well-put together as what I had in my previous BMW's.
I don't really follow you reasoning here. We know that the TL doesn't share lots of parts with the BMW or have lots of parts made in "some run-down sub-contracted factory in China" because Acura is required by law to disclose the content built in America. And, if you look at the sticker on your car, you'll see that most of it is American made. I doubt the BMW has any American content.
Second, even if makes do share parts, that certainly doesn't suggest that the interiors are of the same quality. That line of reasoning would suggest the interior of a TL is no nicer than that of a Civic. After all, Honda almost certainly uses the same suppliers across the line for some car parts. Heck, the TL is built in the exact same factory as the current Accord (which has an interior that looks it was ordered from IKEA).
Finally, nobody said the TL was "less sturdy or well made" in the interior. My comment about material quality was more about the upscale nature (real wood on the dash and armrest, somewhat nicer leather, etc). To me, the BMW just feels like more of luxury car. This is just a statement of opinion, however.
10-30-2008, 11:14 PM
#155
Not an Ashtray
It is only natural due to economies of scale. Mercedes produces the E, CL, CLS, G, and S only in Germany. Some Cs are built in S. Africa. I believe almost all BMWs are built in Germany except for the crappy X3 and maybe the X5 now.
Under the new Federal bailout plan for the automakers only Honda qualifies because they've been in the States for at least 20 years.
My domestically built CL has excellent quality and materials and I'm very happy with my 'domestic' car. The X3 has plastic about as soft as concrete.
Under the new Federal bailout plan for the automakers only Honda qualifies because they've been in the States for at least 20 years.
My domestically built CL has excellent quality and materials and I'm very happy with my 'domestic' car. The X3 has plastic about as soft as concrete.
10-30-2008, 11:43 PM
#156
Racer
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Dude you crazy, I will get a BMW any day over the 09 TL. Facts or opinions, it is based on the view point of the buyer. The design is not my style. That new CTS is nice to be an Domestic car.
Last edited by nhousepro; 10-30-2008 at 11:47 PM.
10-31-2008, 12:54 AM
#157
My only car is a Bus
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It's not a myth. The CTS has a cheap plastic interior and so does their roadster the XLR... which is about $100,000.00. In fact, the Robb Report remarked on this fact as well as all of the times that car broke down. The Mercury Milan's interior is not too bad, circa 1999 Honda Accord, but the domestics have a long way to go... look at the Mustang, Charger, Dodge Caravan, Ford 500/Taurus, Corvette (covering the dash with helped but it's still low rent) as well as numerous other cars.
Some things are a myth like the perfect girlfriend or a trouble-free computer but cheap plastic on domestics ain't one of 'em.
And the 3G TL had poor quality where the dash lined up to the body of the car, among other things.
I've worked at enough car shows and sat in enough cars to know about this.
Some things are a myth like the perfect girlfriend or a trouble-free computer but cheap plastic on domestics ain't one of 'em.
And the 3G TL had poor quality where the dash lined up to the body of the car, among other things.
I've worked at enough car shows and sat in enough cars to know about this.
10-31-2008, 11:53 AM
#159
RIP 06 TL
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OT!
09 TL vs. 09 335
not tsx audi etc....
I think it is hard for most that have not had both cars to know the real difference. A test drive is a test drive, it is not the same as owning a car. I do agree the TL is an awesome car, they both have advantages and disadvantages.
Darth62 has his points, most of which are valid and I can concur with from owning a BMW.
09 TL vs. 09 335
not tsx audi etc....
I think it is hard for most that have not had both cars to know the real difference. A test drive is a test drive, it is not the same as owning a car. I do agree the TL is an awesome car, they both have advantages and disadvantages.
Darth62 has his points, most of which are valid and I can concur with from owning a BMW.
10-31-2008, 03:17 PM
#160
Three Wheelin'
I don't really follow you reasoning here. We know that the TL doesn't share lots of parts with the BMW or have lots of parts made in "some run-down sub-contracted factory in China" because Acura is required by law to disclose the content built in America. And, if you look at the sticker on your car, you'll see that most of it is American made. I doubt the BMW has any American content.
Second, even if makes do share parts, that certainly doesn't suggest that the interiors are of the same quality. That line of reasoning would suggest the interior of a TL is no nicer than that of a Civic. After all, Honda almost certainly uses the same suppliers across the line for some car parts. Heck, the TL is built in the exact same factory as the current Accord (which has an interior that looks it was ordered from IKEA).
Finally, nobody said the TL was "less sturdy or well made" in the interior. My comment about material quality was more about the upscale nature (real wood on the dash and armrest, somewhat nicer leather, etc). To me, the BMW just feels like more of luxury car. This is just a statement of opinion, however.
Second, even if makes do share parts, that certainly doesn't suggest that the interiors are of the same quality. That line of reasoning would suggest the interior of a TL is no nicer than that of a Civic. After all, Honda almost certainly uses the same suppliers across the line for some car parts. Heck, the TL is built in the exact same factory as the current Accord (which has an interior that looks it was ordered from IKEA).
Finally, nobody said the TL was "less sturdy or well made" in the interior. My comment about material quality was more about the upscale nature (real wood on the dash and armrest, somewhat nicer leather, etc). To me, the BMW just feels like more of luxury car. This is just a statement of opinion, however.
To me, Lexus sets the benchmark for real luxury.....everything from the way the car is made, the materials used, and even the way it drives all screams luxury. To me, BMW's are mostly engineered with an emphasis on performance and the handling.....luxury is secondary. It wasn't until about 15 years ago when Lexus made a big splash in the auto industry with the first LS400 that BMW finally started to think about adding more luxury to their cars. However, even today though, BMW's still are not about plush or posh. Anyways, going back to the topic on build quality......while it's true cars like the TL may be built in the US....that just means the parts were brought here from other countries and ASSEMBLED here. Virtually anything these days made of plastic, aluminum, rubber or silicon is made in third-world countries like China, Mexico or India. This is the only way to keep costs down...otherwise, the TL would cost MUCH more than what it already is.