cg2006TSX

Greatest. Car. Owned. Ever.

Seriously, how do you define "be all" and "end all"? Here's how I define "be all" and "end all": I love my car every minute of every day, whether I'm behind the wheel or not.

More than worth every penny. It's a bargain.

Acura? Personally, if was going Japanese I would buy an Infiniti which provides BMW performance at Acura prices (or lower). And this is coming from a long-time Honda fan. That said, no one does luxury sport quite like the Germans, and Audi is equal when compared to Acura and Infiniti price points.

But that's just me. The bottom line for me is to simply buy the car that you want, and not because it provides a better 'value' than the car you really want. 'Value' gets expensive when you're not driving the car you want for the price a meal out once a week.

SpicyMikey

Test drove the 3 series and TL the same day this week.

No comparison in interior refinement. TL beats the 3.

No comparison in driving performance and handling. 3 beats the crap out of the TL.

The TL handles well but if you drive the two back to back within an hour of each other you are reminded why BMW has that reputation for driving experience.

Having said that, the TL is the better all around choice and value by far, unless you can really appreciate the superior handling of the BMW and regularly like to take right turns at 30mph.

I bought the TL/Tech

PetesTL

Yup, and in these days with the economy tanking, I think we've seen the last of these hp-crazy vehicles. Even GM and Chrysler are slowly phasing out their V8's. I can't wait to see more diesels, though......perfect combination of fuel economy and power.

darth62

It sort of all harkens back to you earlier comments about living with a car on a day to day buisness. Enthusiasts always focus on what happens at the test track. But, in the real world, issues like reliablity, MPG, and overall comfort are key. This is why Acuras are such wonderful vehicles - because of the amazing balance of all these competing concerns.

PetesTL

You must a lucky guy to drive the cars you want, but the fact is most Americans don't have the means to do that.....esp. in this economic climate. I "want" to drive a Ferrari but does that mean I am "depriving" myself somehow because I can't afford to? A loaded 335i is $10K-15K more than a TL.....that's much much more than the price of a "meal out once a week." My TL gives me everything I want for the price I paid.

darth62

A loaded 328i is also a lot more than a TL. Configure a 328i to hae everything the TL offers, and you easily get to $43,000 to $44,000. And, that doesn't even take into account the ridiculous prices for upkeep (yeah, I know that the 3-series has 4 years of maintence - but I keep my cars longer than that).

I'd take the 3-series of the basis of performance, but the value equation is steep in favor of ACURA (IMO).

cp3117

+1

I have never heard it stated that way before.....but very well said.

6SpdTerror

Just to clear it up......i didnt get a TL because i can't afford a BMW. I can well afford it if i wanted to but i just love my TL for what it is. Im in the process of looking for my first NSX and id be the first to tell you that i can get a lot faster for a lot cheaper. It all comes down to S.P.A.C.E.D.

safety
performance
appearance
comfort & convenience
economy
dependability.

Some people can live with just one of the above and some of us want more than just one of the above. There's guys at my job making deep in the 6 figures and they drive cars ranging from M6 to ferrari, the owner of the dealership....the one that signs all of our checks.....drives an NSX.
I guess its all about how a car makes you feel and what you are willing to put up with.
HP is overated these days because u can make anything fast. I have a 500+whp Honda accord that will satisfy my need for balls out power when i need it but i drive my TL 97% of the time.

cp3117

Although your right that a 335i is about 12k more than a Base TL you need to compare apples to apples.

A base TL is comparable to a 328i which is about 6k more when comparably equipped and a TL SH-AWD is more comparable to a 335xi which is about 7-8k more......That works out to roughly $150-$200 a month which is what i assume he was using as a comparison.

Rugel

Hey darth62, you're driving the wrong car man....get a BMW since you talk it so much.

darth62

Hey Rugel, I already own a Beemer (just purchased a three series sportwagon) in addition to my Acura.

And, I continue to believe the Acura offers a better balance of reliablity, low cost of ownership, ergonomics, and hassle free ownership experience. Acura gives you all that along with strong performance across the board. I don't own a 4G TL but can tell you that there is basically nothing my TSX doesn't do competently.

I also continue to belive the BMW offers better overall handling and braking and, is ultimately, the better driver's car.

Both makes have advantages and disadvantages.

Sonor Kid 2

Comments like this one make me laugh, honestly!
I own a 2001 CL and a new 2008 TL and I love Honda as much as anybody having also owned a few BMW's.
Please, don't compare the new TL to the 335, it's not as close as you might want to believe, unless you have been drinking lots of Honda Koolaid.
I drove the new 335 extensively along with the new G from Infiniti and the 335 is better built overall in and out, and it will outperform the new TL in just about every performance perameter, YES it's worth the extra dough.

Sonor Kid 2

Oh, I forgot that the new TL is one fugly car compared the the 335.

6SpdTerror

U need to read my other post before you flap your gums. No one ever disputed that the 335 is faster or handles better than the current 3g type-s. For me and quite a few others.....the overall package of the TL is much better hence why i have one. And like i stated above.....i buy and sell cars for a living and have driven a lot more cars than the average individual so im talking from personal experience not just because a bunch of badge conscious yuppies tell that BMW is the best one can get.

CL6

You're not going to sell a car to somebody speaking about dampening rates and an extra 2 inches of rear shoulder room. That was basically my point. And people aren't even going to walk into a BMW dealership without knowing, about, how much pay it takes to play there.

My buddy at an Acura dealership said they're selling their 2008 TLs for more than they are selling their 2009 models... when those are selling.

darth62

No offense, but the fact that you buy and sell cars for a living doesn't making you especially credible. I've met a lot of car salesman who didn't know a whole lot about cars. You personal experience is no more valuable here than the dozens of other posters in this forum, all of whom have driven many different cars and most of whom are extremely well-informed.

And, just so you know, the discussion here is not about the "current 3 GL Type S." We're discussing the 4G vs. 3-series.

Finally, I'd suggest that many Acura owners are just as a much "badge concious yuppies" as the typical Beemer driver. The Acura TL doesn't really offer a lot of performance beyond the V6 Accords. But, my guess is that SOME choose the TL partially because it is an upscale brand name.

6SpdTerror

I concur. I know a ton of car salesmen that don't know crap about what they sell........im not one of those. Ive driven the 4g and cant wait to drive the AWD version and as far as im concerned....i like it.
Again, im just stating my opinion, no one here has to agree with me if they dont want to. If one of my clients wants a BMW....ill sell it to him/her, but for me....i like my TLs.

Peters

Can't speak to the 4G but I have a 3G and a 328xi Coupe. Both are equipped with Navi, bluetooth etc. Even though the 3G might be a little more powerful, overall the 328 is a driver's car in every sense. I am going to test a 4G to see how it compares. Power isn't everything. The road feel and handling the 3 series is excellent from my perspective, one of the best actually.

CL6

I think many Acura customers are brand loyal but I wouldn't call them brand snobs. I think the average BMW driver is going to be more of a brand snob than brand loyal. Americans are the most brand loyal people on earth it has been shown and many Acura people started out on Hondas and just kind of bumped themselves up into Acura because it is "premium." But there's a huge gap between a typical BMW and Acura customer. I, too, have driven a ton of cars... everything from a Mercedes-Benz SL65 to a humble Acura Integra. German and Japanese cars drive differently... I, for one, tend to prefer the German drive but I like the Japanese ergonomics but that advantage is being eroded.

I just think comparing Acura and BMW customers is like comparing two different mindsets and I don't think you'll learn much doing it.

darth62

I definitely don't think MOST Acura owners are "brand snobs" and I don't think that MOST BMW owners are "brand snobs." I think there are some owners of both cars like that. And, yeah, probably more BMW drivers are into brand names than Acura drivers.

darth62

You are obviously a guy who knows his stuff (as do most of the posters here). So, that was not meant as a personal shot. I'm just saying that the fact that you sell cars doesn't buy you any credibility here.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Where were you able to drive the AWD model of the TL? Or did you just drive the FWD model?

If you did drive the AWD model, can you give us some more in depth feedback about the driving dynamics of it?

I would also like to hear your take on the new G37 sedan as well if you don't mind. I'm sure others would too.

I think we all agree or a great majority agrees that the 3er in any model is the driver's car. I was just wondering what you specifically observed between the two.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

A lot of you keep on talking about how a 3 series has better handling than the TL. But one has to be careful when saying that since a 3G TL-S has been proven to be faster on a race track than both G35S 6MT and IS350 by a massive margin. And in another comparison test conducted by professional driver, the G35S is as fast as the 335i on Tsukuba under rain condition. This isn't a direct comparison between the TL-S and 335i, but at least it shows the handling of the TL-S is on par, if not better, than other sports sedans.

Google these if in doubt:

1.) TL-S vs G35S vs IS350 - Streets of Willow Springs by Keiichi Tsuchiya
2.) Best Motoring Tsukuba battle with 335i, G35S, Legacy, IS350

darth62

First of all, we aren't talking about the 3G TL-S. We are talking about the 4G base. Whether or not the 3G TL-S handles better is somewhat irrelvant issue because it is a different car altogether.

Second, all the racetrack results in the world won't convince me that the 3G TL-S or 4G TL handles as well as G35 or BMW 335i. There is no way a front heavy FWD will handle better than a RWD Beemer or Infiniti.

That isn't to say, btw, that the 3 GL TL-S or 4 GL base aren't better cars OVERALL. But will they handle better? No.

L3wD

thats because all you know is that RWD cars oversteer and FWD cars understeer.... a G35 and 335 "feel" like they handle better... they dont necessarily kick out faster laptimes

you guys really know nothing about suspension tuning and handling just about what you feel because you can slide the back out and you think your turning faster.. you're not

Honda has continuously showed that FWD platforms can beat RWD platforms

ITR, CTR, TL-S.... best handling car under 30,000 used to be the Honda Preludes for the longest while

In 1984 or 85 the 2nd gen prelude was the 2nd best handling car in the world, losing to the porsche basically because the engine was a 98hp 1.8 dual carb... aka weak unit

You can't really know a good handling car until you hit the track with it... for the avg driver a RWD will always feel like it handles better

Darth62 go test drive a 5.0 stang and tell me if that handles better than your TSX... it doesnt

PetesTL

Got you down as another "hater." Check. Seriously, though, the 335i is a hot rod, but in real world traffic, it won't get me to work any faster than my TL. And my TL is a lot more comfortable, reliable, and fuel efficient. For the price I paid, no Bimmer can touch it as far as what it delivers.

CL6

You're right! And that's why they are in different price brackets and why many people who buy an TL vs. a 3 Series have very different mentalities and you can't compare them.

I bet the Accord is cross-shopped more with the TL than the BMW is. Maybe that will change now but when I sold the 3G TL that was often the case.

6SpdTerror

I 100% agree. Everyone and this RWD handling crap and 98% of you have never/will never take your car on a road course. The only time i ever feel the ill effects of FWD is when i drag race my turbo accord. For those of you not drag or circuit racing your car.....how can you accurately compare TL vs 335 handling? by hitting the apex on your local expressway??

CL6

You can get a FWD car to handle as well or better than a RWD car with suspension changes among other things but it's just common sense that having the same tires driving the car as well as steering it will create issues. The 3G TL Type-S MT has so much torque steer it's absurd and makes the car difficult to drive. The more power you throw into a car the worse the torque steer gets. There's a reason race cars are RWD/AWD.

FWD cars aren't built for performance they're built so the automaker can save money by packaging everything more cheaply.

You're also going to run into problems with balance when you have the engine/transmission mounted over the front axle instead of slightly or completely behind it.

I think FWD can handle better as in a Civic my buddy had that did amazing things on the track but that is a lightweight car that had substantial modifcations made to the suspension geometry.

My CL, with only 260 HP, is what I'd call right at the limit of having too much power to be useful.

Maybe many people who buy RWD cars do so because of the handling people talk about even though they'll never use it but, objectively, I think a RWD car will handle better out-of-the-box than a FWDer will which is why Acura is moving away from it.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Referring back to his thread, several folks mentioned the 3G TL.

No offense, but your second comment is simply ignorant. I think what you mean is, FWD doesn't "feel right" when cornering. That makes more sense. We aren't talking about F1, Le Mans, ALMS, or any hardcore racing. We are talking about stock, street-legal, sporty family sedans. These are far from real race cars. Just because you have RWD, it doesn't automatically mean it will have the best handling. It's an important part, but there are lot more than just RWD.

darth62

You are right. I'll never take my TSX or the 328 out on a road course. In fact, I've never taken any of my cars to the track, and never will. So what? Newsflash: we're talking about how cars handle in the real world - not what they do at the track.

I've been driving Honda sedans for 20 years. I've had two Accords, a TSX. Other front wheelers that I drove fairly frequently include a A4 and a 3G TL (base, not Type S). I think I know how front wheelers drive.

And, I'm sorry, but I stand by my earlier statement. The new TL is not in the same league as either the G35 or the 3-series when it comes to handling. Not even close, as a matter of fact.

darth62

The point of the thread was a comparision of the 4G to the 328i. The 3G Type-S is no longer being made - so it is pretty irrelevant.


If you don't want to offend somebody, starting off by calling their comments "ignorant" is a pretty dumbass approach. No offense intended, of course.

Who said that all RWD cars "automatically" handle better than all FWD cars? I had a RWD Buick Regal in high school. Do you think I believe that handles better than my current TSX?

What we are talking about here are two of the best handling cars in their class - 3-series and G35. And, I'm sorry but the TL is not in that class. This is not only my personal experience, but a perspective that is also shared by tons of more objective sources (Consumer Reports, Motor Trend, etc). You don't have a leg to stand on in this discussion.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Again, like I was saying, we are talking about sporty family sedans that get us from point A to point with some luxury features, with enough space to seat 4-5 people comfortably, not race cars. They are totally different.

Theoretically, you are right, RWD is better than FWD in handling. Originally FWD isn't built for performance, but Alfa Romeo and Honda have proven many times that with proper engineering and tuning, FWD can be made to handle well, better than their RWD competitors. Now, even GM is joining, best example is the Cobalt SS, with only 260hp driving the front wheels, it has a record of 8:23s at Nurburgring. That time is faster than E46 M3 for comparison, which has 333hp.

A stock JDM FD2 Civic Type R with OEM tires and 225ps (222hp) is also capable of beating NSX Type S, R34 GTR, FD RX7, Lan Evo on Suzuka, partly because the car was developed at Suzuka. Why? Lightweight, proper suspension tuning, close-ratio gearbox, aerodynamics, stiff chassis, etc.

By the way, my dream car is the NSX-R, a MR machine, not a FWD car, if you think I'm biased.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I simply replied to the other guys after the handling of the 3G, not to you, you can ignore that part if you prefer.

Sorry for my poor English skill (English is my 2nd language), I didn't know what other word I could use besides "ignorant" in that situation.

Good, you know that RWD doesn't automatically mean better handling than FWD.

darth62

I mostly agree. But, I also think FWD offers some advantages, beyond handling. For example, a FWD car is much better in snow than a RWD. And, FWD vehicles offer more space, and tend to get better MPG. So, it isn't just about saving Honda/Acura money, FWD cars are also more practical.

darth62

No, I'm the one who should say I am sorry. I had no idea that English was not your native language and apologize for taking offense at your comment.

I understand why you were focusing on the 3G. Because we are all Acura enthusiasts here, and many of us have long experience with TLs, TSXes, Accords, etc - it is natural for us to draw comparisons based on the vehicles we know.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and thank you for being such a good sport.

CL6

I'd love to see links to those claims.

The Colbalt is fast and, in fact, it is the second FWD vehicle (a Renault is #95) to be listed in the fastest time category... which puts it in position number 111 (granted among cars that cost much more).

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track2.html

Part of that is good engineering but more of it is a superior power-to-weight ratio. That said, the NSX-R is ahead.

However, out of 203 cars listed only 23 are FWD and who knows how many are "stock."

Most of us will never drive on the Nordschleife, when 89% of the cars listed there are not FWD that's got to tell you something.

L3wD

lol darth why do you insist on ignoring the test with the IS350, G35S and TL-S driven by Keichi Tsuchiya the Drift King. An actual race car driver. Where the TL-S ran willow springs faster than both.

Then theres the video of the TL-S on streets of willow springs where you can see how a FWD car can oversteer. And on streets of willow the TL-S beat the 350Z

Not some Road and Track Bullshit if anyone tells me Road and Track is reliable I would never believe, the article that sent me over the edge with road and track is when they took a stock USDM NSX and a 450hp Spoon NSX R-GT and only cut 1.5 seconds off the laptime

The point iforyou is making is that just because a car is FWD means it cant handle as good as a RWD... so don't be blind

I really dont know why ppl buy a FWD car and complain that it doesnt handle as good as a RWD... i guess if they bought a RWD and got blown away in some corners by a FWD they wouldn't know what to complain about

L3wD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTBtFsadTjo heres one where 2 CTRs VS Nismo Z33 and STI RA-R

heres another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKeT4znYD4E
this you see his laptimes on suzuka for different cars on their debut
CTR:2:35:20
NSX S-Zero 2:35:44
EVO VI RS 2:36:50
RX7 RS 2:35:81
R34 V-Spec 2:39:56

Baapo

Bottom line is this...you won't find BMW dealerships offering such "objective" comparisons *sarcasm* on their websites...

A BMW 3 series will sell on its own...