Why is it that Infiniti is often put on a higher pedestal than Acura?
10-23-2014, 07:39 AM
#281
So a 535 is not a luxury sedan, but a 550,and M5 are.
These are interesting distinctions, but while not clearly defined by anyone, you obviously have your own arbitrary scale that no one else is privy to.
Price alone does not make a luxury vehicle. You were the one making it seem so cut, and dry, I was the one saying its more complicated than just 2 classes of luxury or economy.
I wont bother with the example of street legal track cars which will sell in very limited numbers as an example of anything we have been discussing regarding mainstream sedans.
I don't think all vehicles can be so cleanly divided amongst just 3 categories either. A Chevy Suburban can easily sell for more than a 5 series with a V8, so there goes your classification system.
With your posts in this thread, and such cut, and dry delineations, are you sure you aren't in marketing?
Back to my original point, if you want a good example of an economy car, head over to a rental agency, and ask for one. Just to warn you, you won't be getting the keys to a car with HID's, power everything, etc like a TSX, or even an Accord.
These are interesting distinctions, but while not clearly defined by anyone, you obviously have your own arbitrary scale that no one else is privy to.
Price alone does not make a luxury vehicle. You were the one making it seem so cut, and dry, I was the one saying its more complicated than just 2 classes of luxury or economy.
I wont bother with the example of street legal track cars which will sell in very limited numbers as an example of anything we have been discussing regarding mainstream sedans.
I don't think all vehicles can be so cleanly divided amongst just 3 categories either. A Chevy Suburban can easily sell for more than a 5 series with a V8, so there goes your classification system.
With your posts in this thread, and such cut, and dry delineations, are you sure you aren't in marketing?
Back to my original point, if you want a good example of an economy car, head over to a rental agency, and ask for one. Just to warn you, you won't be getting the keys to a car with HID's, power everything, etc like a TSX, or even an Accord.
Javing rented a lot of cars since I travel for work, you're right. Sometimes, when I want to splurge, I rent the so called Prestige collection from Hertz. I rent so much, they sometimes upgrade me for no charge.
Those are the Volvos, the Mercedes, the Lincolns, etc. Even there, especially the Benz's, they are base cars that in all honesty, I'd prefer drivng an Accord. The last one I rented was a CLA. Suspension was terrible, crashing over pavement. Engine was underpowered. And, cost cutting was evident. Pretty car, though.
BTW, Honda and Acura don't do fleet deals with the rental agencies like all of the other manufacturers. That's why you won't see them at your rental lot.
Which gets us back to the previous poster. Some will like the Q50's styling, and no matter what it's foibles, will pony up the money for it. A couple of test drives is all it took for me to realize it's foibles (electronics, steering, etc) would have me looking to trade it in short order, once I was forced to live with it day-to-day.
Someone else mentioned the G. Truthfully, for the money they're selling them for, even with the antiquated electronics and spotty interior materials, I'd spend $30K on one of those before I would a Camry, Fusion or something in that price point.
10-23-2014, 08:28 AM
#282
Burning Brakes
Javing rented a lot of cars since I travel for work, you're right. Sometimes, when I want to splurge, I rent the so called Prestige collection from Hertz. I rent so much, they sometimes upgrade me for no charge. Those are the Volvos, the Mercedes, the Lincolns, etc. Even there, especially the Benz's, they are base cars that in all honesty, I'd prefer drivng an Accord. The last one I rented was a CLA. Suspension was terrible, crashing over pavement. Engine was underpowered. And, cost cutting was evident. Pretty car, though. BTW, Honda and Acura don't do fleet deals with the rental agencies like all of the other manufacturers. That's why you won't see them at your rental lot. Which gets us back to the previous poster. Some will like the Q50's styling, and no matter what it's foibles, will pony up the money for it. A couple of test drives is all it took for me to realize it's foibles (electronics, steering, etc) would have me looking to trade it in short order, once I was forced to live with it day-to-day. Someone else mentioned the G. Truthfully, for the money they're selling them for, even with the antiquated electronics and spotty interior materials, I'd spend $30K on one of those before I would a Camry, Fusion or something in that price point.
This is an easy choice for me, I like the way the infinitis drive, I'll take how the car drives over a better radio any day. Too bad the tlx came out just after I picked up my car, I would have liked to test drive it. However the sage advice of many here is taken; stay away from first year models.
10-23-2014, 08:54 AM
#283
10-23-2014, 09:49 AM
#284
Which gets us back to the previous poster. Some will like the Q50's styling, and no matter what it's foibles, will pony up the money for it. A couple of test drives is all it took for me to realize it's foibles (electronics, steering, etc) would have me looking to trade it in short order, once I was forced to live with it day-to-day.
Few things....today my wife's Q50 is going for service, the letter from Infiniti says "a system software upgrade to improve the InTouch system stability and add functionality" so the "slow" system issues could be resolved...not that the occasional few seconds lag is that big of a deal.
The Dry-By-Wire steering takes time to get used so an occasional road test may not fully reveal its advantages (I'm talking about the testers from the press)
It is actually a great feature and you can really fine tune the steering characteristics to your own liking way better than any traditional steering rack, I do like it a lot but I realize even few hours of driving time may not be enough to appreciate it.
10-23-2014, 11:39 AM
#285
Suzuka Master
I would put my 11 M37S up against my 09 AWD TL leather any day, I think they were both great, I would give the slight edge to the Infiniti. Unless you get the touring package on a M37/Q70 you do not get the better leather and I have yet to be in a G or Q50 that had great leather. Can not speak to their higher end SUVs.
10-23-2014, 11:43 AM
#286
Suzuka Master
The Bose SOW and Bose in Infiniti sucks in general. Not bad, but worse than most of the competition. Even the Bose in my A6 has cleaner deeper tones than the 5.1 Bose in my M37S. Infiniti needs to get a better line of audio systems in their cars.
10-23-2014, 12:45 PM
#287
Burning Brakes
It is okay and is not on the list of negative showstoppers for the vehicle.
10-23-2014, 12:54 PM
#288
Burning Brakes
10-23-2014, 01:45 PM
#289
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
Get a free loaner from Lieth BMW & the guy from National Car Rental will bring a nice very low mileage 328 to the Servi e Departments Door. LEITH one of the two largest BMW dealers in thr Carolinas also sells MB, Lexus, Acura Chevy ETC.
10-23-2014, 05:26 PM
#290
Will not bother with the whole post just your last point which I guess is to prove your points.
Get a free loaner from Lieth BMW & the guy from National Car Rental will bring a nice very low mileage 328 to the Servi e Departments Door. LEITH one of the two largest BMW dealers in thr Carolinas also sells MB, Lexus, Acura Chevy ETC.
Get a free loaner from Lieth BMW & the guy from National Car Rental will bring a nice very low mileage 328 to the Servi e Departments Door. LEITH one of the two largest BMW dealers in thr Carolinas also sells MB, Lexus, Acura Chevy ETC.
You said the TSX is a economy car, numerous other posters have said that it's not. His point is that the TSX is not a economy car. It's above that.
What the hell does Lieth or 328 loaners have to do with anything.
Get out of your bubble. The TSX is NOT an economy car. A economy car is something like a Mazda 3 or Toyota Corolla.
10-23-2014, 05:28 PM
#291
Also nobody care about your standards and definitions of 'economy cars' and 'luxury cars'. Nobody. The Auto Industry determines that and we go by it. You want to be a rebel and throw a big middle finger against the Auto Industry. Scream that a fully loaded Fusion is the same as a Mercedes CLA? Car forum people might actually agree. But you know what? The general American Public don't. And they speak with their wallets.
10-23-2014, 07:07 PM
#292
Yes, as I said, depending on cycles, there will be highs and lows for these two vs. eachother. Considering that the TL was in 'lame duck' mode for almost a year as Acura prolonged the launch of TLX and considering that TL + TSX production lines were closed in Dec/Jan there were few TLs to sell even if you had a customer looking to snap up one of the old models.
10-23-2014, 08:54 PM
#294
Few things....today my wife's Q50 is going for service, the letter from Infiniti says "a system software upgrade to improve the InTouch system stability and add functionality" so the "slow" system issues could be resolved...not that the occasional few seconds lag is that big of a deal.
The Dry-By-Wire steering takes time to get used so an occasional road test may not fully reveal its advantages (I'm talking about the testers from the press)
It is actually a great feature and you can really fine tune the steering characteristics to your own liking way better than any traditional steering rack, I do like it a lot but I realize even few hours of driving time may not be enough to appreciate it.
The Dry-By-Wire steering takes time to get used so an occasional road test may not fully reveal its advantages (I'm talking about the testers from the press)
It is actually a great feature and you can really fine tune the steering characteristics to your own liking way better than any traditional steering rack, I do like it a lot but I realize even few hours of driving time may not be enough to appreciate it.
In fairness to the Q50, I believe 95% of the issues they had have been fixed or don't show up anymore (again, I haven't followed the car in about a month or two). If the Q50 had been released without all the issues they had, I may have chosent it over the TLX, but "first impressions..." and all that.
10-23-2014, 09:14 PM
#295
AZ Community Team
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 3,405
Received 1,582 Likes
on
952 Posts
TLX will sale more than Q50 for sure. There is no doubt. The price range of too good...it fits everyone's budget. Q50 doesn't fit everyone's budget.
10-23-2014, 10:02 PM
#296
I just recently stopped following the Q50 forums since I got my TLX. The Q50 was just about to be the car I was going to get until the maniacal Intouch electronic glitches where you had to pull over and restart your car or, if you were lucky, just restart your InTouch system, missing apps on the Intouch, backup lines that don't show up for 30 seconds or so on the display when you put the car in reverse, people holding the steering wheel sideways to make it go straight, smelly interior, etc. pissed me off and I didn't even own the car. lol. That's when I just decided to wait on the TLX (after also having given up on the ATS).
In fairness to the Q50, I believe 95% of the issues they had have been fixed or don't show up anymore (again, I haven't followed the car in about a month or two). If the Q50 had been released without all the issues they had, I may have chosent it over the TLX, but "first impressions..." and all that.
In fairness to the Q50, I believe 95% of the issues they had have been fixed or don't show up anymore (again, I haven't followed the car in about a month or two). If the Q50 had been released without all the issues they had, I may have chosent it over the TLX, but "first impressions..." and all that.
Well I never had the sort of issues you did described but I admit the InTouch could have few seconds of "thinking" here and there.
I got the car back tonight after the system update service and I can definitely see a big improvement...system response is way crispier, very "fluid" and boot time is slightly better.
10-23-2014, 10:10 PM
#297
Racer
yea, it has rwd and more power...
that equals more gas... i would be practical and buy acura over infiniti.
besides, i hate nissan, had two nissan before buying the car of my dream (realistically) and got tsx.
that equals more gas... i would be practical and buy acura over infiniti.
besides, i hate nissan, had two nissan before buying the car of my dream (realistically) and got tsx.
10-24-2014, 12:11 AM
#298
Burning Brakes
If I cared about gas I would buy a prius or tesla. I'm not looking for absolute practicality I want a drivers car.
10-24-2014, 12:13 AM
#299
Burning Brakes
Maybe, maybe not. But Infiniti is not standing still either.
10-24-2014, 01:59 AM
#300
Infiniti cars are great. They really are. But like someone said, Infiniti trying to sell at the same price point as Lexus and in the same bracket as the Germans is just not going to work.
The reason the Q50 isn't selling as much is not because it's not a great car, it's because for that money a lot of consumers will rather go the Lexus or BMW route.
The Q50 is obviously a great car and I actually think it's better than every car in it's segment outside of the IS 350 F Sport. But Infiniti really messed up by not introducing a 33,000 MSRP USD version as well as the current one.
A weaker Q50 sellling for around 33-34k MSRP will be a lot more attractive than a TLX I4, the problem is that car does not exist.
The reason the Q50 isn't selling as much is not because it's not a great car, it's because for that money a lot of consumers will rather go the Lexus or BMW route.
The Q50 is obviously a great car and I actually think it's better than every car in it's segment outside of the IS 350 F Sport. But Infiniti really messed up by not introducing a 33,000 MSRP USD version as well as the current one.
A weaker Q50 sellling for around 33-34k MSRP will be a lot more attractive than a TLX I4, the problem is that car does not exist.
The following users liked this post:
hadokenuh (10-28-2014)
10-24-2014, 02:05 AM
#301
Despite this being an Acura forum, I think a lot of people under estimate Acura's perception in the real World. I stayed in Texas during the Summer and the overall opinion/vibe I got from the people there is that Acura is still perceived as the higher end Brand compared to say Buick.
I don't even think the issue with Acura is FWD. The Lexus ES is FWD and it's constantly being ranked high and it's always selling great numbers. The problem with Acura is that it tries to pass itself off as sporty luxury IN A FWD Package. That doesn't work.
The ES never tried the sporty route. It's simply a entry level luxury family sedan and it's always marketed as such. The 'sporty' Lexus cars are all RWD.
Acura should probably have followed that route.
FWD-TL for the Family Luxury and maybe RWD Version for the younger people.
I don't even think the issue with Acura is FWD. The Lexus ES is FWD and it's constantly being ranked high and it's always selling great numbers. The problem with Acura is that it tries to pass itself off as sporty luxury IN A FWD Package. That doesn't work.
The ES never tried the sporty route. It's simply a entry level luxury family sedan and it's always marketed as such. The 'sporty' Lexus cars are all RWD.
Acura should probably have followed that route.
FWD-TL for the Family Luxury and maybe RWD Version for the younger people.
10-24-2014, 06:50 AM
#302
Burning Brakes
Infiniti cars are great. They really are. But like someone said, Infiniti trying to sell at the same price point as Lexus and in the same bracket as the Germans is just not going to work. The reason the Q50 isn't selling as much is not because it's not a great car, it's because for that money a lot of consumers will rather go the Lexus or BMW route. The Q50 is obviously a great car and I actually think it's better than every car in it's segment outside of the IS 350 F Sport. But Infiniti really messed up by not introducing a 33,000 MSRP USD version as well as the current one. A weaker Q50 sellling for around 33-34k MSRP will be a lot more attractive than a TLX I4, the problem is that car does not exist.
10-24-2014, 07:29 AM
#303
Racer
New nomenclature for G37 is Q40.
10-24-2014, 10:41 AM
#304
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
Ergo 328's are part of the rental fleet.
That said if you want cars like the TSX & ILX to be something special, Enjoy!!
10-24-2014, 10:48 AM
#305
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
10-24-2014, 10:56 AM
#306
AZ Community Team
So a 535 is not a luxury sedan, but a 550,and M5 are.
These are interesting distinctions, but while not clearly defined by anyone, you obviously have your own arbitrary scale that no one else is privy to.
Price alone does not make a luxury vehicle. You were the one making it seem so cut, and dry, I was the one saying its more complicated than just 2 classes of luxury or economy.
I wont bother with the example of street legal track cars which will sell in very limited numbers as an example of anything we have been discussing regarding mainstream sedans.
I don't think all vehicles can be so cleanly divided amongst just 3 categories either. A Chevy Suburban can easily sell for more than a 5 series with a V8, so there goes your classification system.
With your posts in this thread, and such cut, and dry delineations, are you sure you aren't in marketing?
Back to my original point, if you want a good example of an economy car, head over to a rental agency, and ask for one. Just to warn you, you won't be getting the keys to a car with HID's, power everything, etc like a TSX, or even an Accord.
These are interesting distinctions, but while not clearly defined by anyone, you obviously have your own arbitrary scale that no one else is privy to.
Price alone does not make a luxury vehicle. You were the one making it seem so cut, and dry, I was the one saying its more complicated than just 2 classes of luxury or economy.
I wont bother with the example of street legal track cars which will sell in very limited numbers as an example of anything we have been discussing regarding mainstream sedans.
I don't think all vehicles can be so cleanly divided amongst just 3 categories either. A Chevy Suburban can easily sell for more than a 5 series with a V8, so there goes your classification system.
With your posts in this thread, and such cut, and dry delineations, are you sure you aren't in marketing?
Back to my original point, if you want a good example of an economy car, head over to a rental agency, and ask for one. Just to warn you, you won't be getting the keys to a car with HID's, power everything, etc like a TSX, or even an Accord.
To simple classify a 5 series a luxury car only if it has a V8 is silly and pointless. Reminds me of when the US Government decided a 2 door SUV was a truck but a 4 door of the same model was a car. The distinctions between vehicles and their classes is gray and blurry at best these days.
10-24-2014, 11:04 AM
#307
Senior Moderator
I said to ask for an economy car at a rental agency, and see what you get. You mentioned National, so here you go. https://www.nationalcar.com/index.do...withnav-header
Even taking their lowest tier vehicles, Chevy Sparks, Versas, Corollas are all a long way off from a TSX, let alone a 328.
I also said nothing about the TSX or ILX being special. I just completely disagree with your classification of them as economy cars.
If it makes you feel better to put them down in that manner, Enjoy!!
Last edited by Mr Hyde; 10-24-2014 at 11:08 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Stew4HD (10-27-2014)
10-28-2014, 12:12 PM
#308
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
Your recollection is completely wrong, and unnecessary since you quoted me only inches above. You can even rent exotics if you want, you just need to have deep enough pockets.
I said to ask for an economy car at a rental agency, and see what you get. You mentioned National, so here you go. https://www.nationalcar.com/index.do...withnav-header
Even taking their lowest tier vehicles, Chevy Sparks, Versas, Corollas are all a long way off from a TSX, let alone a 328.
I also said nothing about the TSX or ILX being special. I just completely disagree with your classification of them as economy cars.
If it makes you feel better to put them down in that manner, Enjoy!!
I said to ask for an economy car at a rental agency, and see what you get. You mentioned National, so here you go. https://www.nationalcar.com/index.do...withnav-header
Even taking their lowest tier vehicles, Chevy Sparks, Versas, Corollas are all a long way off from a TSX, let alone a 328.
I also said nothing about the TSX or ILX being special. I just completely disagree with your classification of them as economy cars.
If it makes you feel better to put them down in that manner, Enjoy!!
Had cars like the Jaguar 4.0 Sovereign V8 & MB-S class when I lived in the UK & consider them luxury cars. We were giving section supervisors 3 & C series cars so that is my frame of reference.
Your results may differ.
10-28-2014, 01:07 PM
#309
10-28-2014, 01:53 PM
#310
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
Hey what can I tell you? Was the R&T sibling compare that picked the Civic over the ILX not me. The Civic was quicker, stopped better & handled better.
Acura ILX vs. Honda Civic Si - Comparison Tests - Road & Track
Acura ILX vs. Honda Civic Si - Comparison Tests - Road & Track
10-28-2014, 01:59 PM
#311
Senior Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Tires...
10-28-2014, 02:23 PM
#312
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
Tires would help the ILX toward evening the gap to the factory equipped Civic but the Civic still has LSD, better roll bars etc. that you can't get on the ILX.
Regardless R&T is still calling it for the Civic. Maybe they think the $8000 extra does not cover the spread in content. As I said I did not make the call R&T did so post a letter to the ED.
Regardless R&T is still calling it for the Civic. Maybe they think the $8000 extra does not cover the spread in content. As I said I did not make the call R&T did so post a letter to the ED.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-28-2014 at 02:26 PM.
10-28-2014, 03:08 PM
#313
Some dude
Should have just locked this thread up after this post.
lol, I really doubt that should be taken as something to be proud of.
Despite this being an Acura forum, I think a lot of people under estimate Acura's perception in the real World. I stayed in Texas during the Summer and the overall opinion/vibe I got from the people there is that Acura is still perceived as the higher end Brand compared to say Buick.
10-28-2014, 07:13 PM
#314
Senior Moderator
I'm glad you said it's in your point of view, as your personal classification system is obviously at odds with everyone on this forum, all the magazine's, reviews, manufacturers, etc, etc.
10-29-2014, 11:40 AM
#315
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
The following users liked this post:
Monte TLS,MAX (10-30-2014)
10-29-2014, 11:51 AM
#316
Senior Moderator
Thinking outside the box has done me very well over my lifetime, no reason to change now. If car companies who sell cars for six figure prices want to tell the public their $35K entry is a luxury car & people are anxious to accept it at face value who am I to stand in the way of very good marketing.
10-29-2014, 01:12 PM
#317
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Raleigh, NC - USA
Age: 82
Posts: 7,674
Received 2,599 Likes
on
1,581 Posts
I did not say it was not a good strategy on the contrary the more people they can suck into higher priced offerings with marketing manufactured categories, labels & tag lines the better for profits.
Look how hard people will defend their "luxury" auto purchases. Something that never comes up at the top end because they are luxury cars with no equivocation. Question might be asked where is the lower cutoff. Can a TLX be a luxury car & a Buick not?
Not much has changed in auto marketing, the direct descendent of horse trading, since Henry Ford got the mass market rolling.
GM was founded on the concept of get them in young with a Chevy & grow them through the product line into a Caddy as they matured & their income increased. What's good for GM is good for the country.
10-29-2014, 01:57 PM
#318
Well the next company I bankrupt will be the first one I bankrupt. Have a good track record in the real world & am not worried about it.
I did not say it was not a good strategy on the contrary the more people they can suck into higher priced offerings with marketing manufactured categories, labels & tag lines the better for profits.
Look how hard people will defend their "luxury" auto purchases. Something that never comes up at the top end because they are luxury cars with no equivocation. Question might be asked where is the lower cutoff. Can a TLX be a luxury car & a Buick not?
Not much has changed in auto marketing, the direct descendent of horse trading, since Henry Ford got the mass market rolling.
GM was founded on the concept of get them in young with a Chevy & grow them through the product line into a Caddy as they matured & their income increased. What's good for GM is good for the country.
I did not say it was not a good strategy on the contrary the more people they can suck into higher priced offerings with marketing manufactured categories, labels & tag lines the better for profits.
Look how hard people will defend their "luxury" auto purchases. Something that never comes up at the top end because they are luxury cars with no equivocation. Question might be asked where is the lower cutoff. Can a TLX be a luxury car & a Buick not?
Not much has changed in auto marketing, the direct descendent of horse trading, since Henry Ford got the mass market rolling.
GM was founded on the concept of get them in young with a Chevy & grow them through the product line into a Caddy as they matured & their income increased. What's good for GM is good for the country.
I'm going to try to say this without sounding too offensive. The truth of the matter is your opinion does not matter. Because you are going against the opinions of the Auto Industry and millions of buyers. It doesn't matter how successful you are in real life. My Dad is a very successful person, nobody will care one bit if he started screaming that 'A BMW 328I IS NOT CONSIDERED A LUXURY CAR'. Nobody will care. He can drive up to the local BMW Dealership in his Bentley and start showing people proof that 'the 328i is not luxury'. People will just laugh at him(and laugh at you).
The Auto Industry and the consumers control what is viewed as luxury and what is not viewed as luxury. Not some poster on Acurazine.
This is just like me writing up a 200 page report on why Muhammad Ali is not a top 10 Heavyweight. I can use all sorts of stats and theories and maybe I'll actually be right. Maybe Muhammad Ali really ISN'T a top 10 All Time Heavyweight. But the BOXING WORLD and the sports world will just laugh me out of the park. It doesn't matter if it's true or not.
Maybe Ali isn't as good as everyone thinks. The fact that everyone thinks he's just that good makes the 'truth' irrelevant.
10-29-2014, 02:00 PM
#319
Sorry to bust your bubble BEAR. But driving a little BMW 4 series or whatever it is that you drive doesn't make a bit of difference to the average American person. They see your car and they see a 3 Series. They think 'BMW'. Sorry. They don't say to themselves 'hmm let's see, this guy got a M SPORT PACKAGE and that means ........ or this guy's 435 is OBVIOUSLY this much faster than a 428i by torque x CURB WEIGHT' Lol. No. What they see is a BMW and that's that.