ggesq

iTrader: (1)

I'm very well aware that the Accord is cross shopped with the TL/TLX. It's been happening since the late 80's but thanks for the reminder.

No matter what you and Nissan Motor Co believe the competition to the Maxima is, in the real world there are many varied comparisons being drawn by buyers and on maxima.org the Accord is a lot more prevalent in their discussions. Again, you should go tell them, that you are right and the buyers of Maxima's are wrong to compare the Accord.

saturno_v

Incidentally today I turned in at the rental desk a Chrysler 300 C (the middle tier trim with the S below the Platinum and above the Limited, 38K sticker).....I would love for you to tell me with a straight face that is not as luxurious or upscale as a TLX....that would make for a very good laugh indeed....

saturno_v

...we are saying exactly the same thing......

CaliAtenza

I drove one before I bought my TLX. The CVT still sucks the life out of any Nissan (its pretty blah in the Altima and it does no favors in the Maxima). The Maxima also felt heavy and not very sporty. The TLX by contrast is light on its feet, and sometimes a bit too light in the back in the curves...

kurtatx

Moral of this thread: Consider the Maxima unless you value interior quality, a real transmission, a premium experience, or a sport feel.

While you're trying out the Maxima, go try a Chevy Impala, as it's a better car than the Maxima.

Mr Hyde

I have been in a rental, and it was everything I would expect of a rental, fleet vehicle. Wrapping that interior in better leather, and throwing in some more options would not have made it any more of a luxury vehicle. That you would even say that is hilarious. Can I interest you in a Cadillac Cimarron?

There are currently 2 Maximas in my extended family, and my father used to own one a few years ago. All 3 were purchased after being cross shopped against Accords, and Camry's. That's not outside the mainstream norm at all despite what he is trying to claim.

Also what's with the 4 Door Sports Car line returning on a car you can only get with FWD, and a CVT???

Nice switcheroo, but you were talking about the fleet sale champion Dodge Charger, not the 300C. They share the same underpinnings, but hardly have the same NVH, sound, fit, ride quality, luxury design, and feel. If you think so, the next time you get in one, you should do so with your eyes open, earmuffs off, and both hands on the steering wheel.

Stew4HD

seems someone's touting the Maxima since they own a dressed up Ultima.. Just an observation.. Infiniti/Nissan>Acura/Honda. Some things never change.

I crossed shopped a Fiat 500 before getting into the RLX. That's how I roll! *snark*

Jakes_tl

It might be selling better than the TLX and I wasn't comparing it to the TLX, i just said it was ugly and it is ugly on the exterior! The interior is sweet.

Mr Hyde

That wasn't lost on me either. You missed the other vehicle in his stable which coincided with the sudden love for all things Dodge/Jeep/Chrysler.

Well if you did, that must mean ALL RLX owners cross shopped the Fiat too!!!

saturno_v

......I have no "love" for any car brand, I'm just an informed car enthusiast with no brand loyalty whatsoever, the day Dodge/Chrysler will be back at building garbage cars I will be the first one to say so (they still build some very crappy cars, I would pick a Civic over a Dart 100 tomes over...happy?? ) ....simply I'm not a fanboy as you seem to be...

saturno_v

....moral of your reply, you never put your butt on a new Maxima and you think that the think the TLX has a nice "sport feel"....but at least you got one thing right...the CVT is pure crap in a sport sedan (or a wannabe one) no matter how "good and improved" is...

Stew4HD

I doubt I could sit in Fiat.. I rode in a Mini once.. that was horrible. I felt like a giant in that thing.

I did see him talking up Dodge/Chrysler. I just shook my head.

BEAR-AvHistory

Nissan corporate thinks Infiniti is premium & Nissan is not. That's why they have a separate premium car division called Infiniti.

saturno_v

Again, planet earth to Mr Hyde......the TL has been cross shopped with the Accord forever.....so someone willing to spend let's say around 30 and half or so for a sedan would consider the Accord, the Maxima but the TLX is, for some mysterious reason, unreachable and not considered.......again planet earth to you, go on the maxima.org forum and search for the word"TLX"......

Finally you make a good point.....CVT is no bueno at all.......AWD should be on the way next year.

Switcheroo? No, it's simply called being informed my friend.....I understand that you tried to make a uninformed generic assumption hoping it would stick....sorry, no suck luck...I know and researched these two cars (well their recent redesign) extensively and I end up renting one or the other very often....the 300 and Charger are identical even in their NVH treatment, (easy to verify road tests and check technical details on allpar.com), the Charger has simply a more sport tuned suspension and a throatier sound at full power (much throatier on SRT models) by design, after all it is the sportier of the two.....acoustic laminated glass, noise abatement panel and filled cavities are the same for both (with similar powertrain the weight between the two is basically identical, so even without the info available any notion of extra NVH treatment is imaginary anyway).
Stickier tires on some Charger models may generate very marginal differences on some road surfaces. SRT Chargers are noisier, again, by design, to let their owners enjoy their soundtrack and because of their much bigger and stickier tires.
The main dashboard and door panel plastics grain is identical (including their "cousin" Challenger), so is the general assembly level (by the way, they are screwed together next to each other by the same people in the same assembly plant), all the switchgear, the steering wheel, the infotainment system and the high resolution driver display...the only difference is that the 300 has a either wood or brushed metal trim going across the dash and door panels horizontally, the Charger does not have that.
The 300 Platinum has a leather covered dash, center console sides and upper door panels but I never saw that trim offered on rental lots.
Seats are identical (stitching pattern may change a little bit) for both standard and sport seats (the SRT Chargers get their own more bolstered seats), the Charger has two type of leather available where the 300 has 3. Base Chargers (what you find on rental lots) have cloth seats, the 300 get leather even on the base trim
The 300 get couple of extra gadgets like the rear electric sunshade and the panoramic sunroof not available on Chargers.
Is the 300 more elegant in design?? Nooo!! Really??!! Obviously it is..that is the whole point about the difference between the two....one is supposed to be a luxury sedan, the other a sportier, brashier car.
It seems that you got exactly fooled by the proverbial lipstick on a pig......are you sure you are not interested in that Cadillac Cimarron??

P.S.

If I was in the market for a car like the 300, I would definitely pick a Hyundai Genesis instead...better assembly level overall and more modern engines for very little extra money not to mention the longer warranty and better reputation for reliability....you see how much of a fanboy of Chrysler products I am??

Mr Hyde

So they are identical in NVH, but the Charger has a rougher, louder suspension, more tire noise, and more engine/exhuast noise??? So more noise, vibration, and harshness, but identical N,V,H.... Got it!! Thanks for the explanation, sure sounds identical to me. :.

I didn't comment on build quality at all as I am very aware how they are similarly assembled, nice try, but I didn't fall for anything.

earth to Saturno..........You keep switching things around, but takes away nothing away from the fact that the FWD, CVT Maxima (What other lux sedans come so equipped????) is cross shopped much more against Accords and Camrys than it is luxury sedans.

ummm, exactly my point!!! I'm not the one trying to say the Charger competes with luxury sedans, that was you remember????

It's more muscle car than luxury sedan while the 300C is the opposite...The 300C is more than just a Charger with upgraded leather for the reasons you glossed over...you know the refinements that set a lux car apart from a muscle car.

saturno_v

...the Charger does not have a "rougher", "louder" suspension or less ride quality...just a bit more composed sporty ride, you confuse "harsh" with a sportier ride...a 3 Series is not "rougher" than an Avalon or a Lexus ES...

The Charger is not any louder either, as I said, there may be some minimal differences for some trims at cruise speed are due to different tires....the SRT duo is louder for sure.

The Charger is not a muscle car of yore but a proper sport sedan with proper body control....is not any less upscale than a 300, just a bit different mission.

You did not??? this is what you wrote:

They share the same underpinnings, but hardly have the same NVH, sound, fit, ride quality, luxury design, and feel.


Both of us have no statistical data about percentage...common sense (and anecdotal evidence) dictate that if I want to spend about 35K for a FWD sporty sedan the Maxima, Accord, TLX and others will be in the mix...period....yes if AWD is important to you you will not consider the Maxima, I give you that...or the Accord....by the way if the CVT is something that disqualify the Maxima from being cross shopped, the Accord V6 should not be in the mix either, according to your logic.... You see how it does not make sense to try to put people choices in well defined boxes??

...no I always said that the Charger in its current form is a damn fine and refined sport sedan especially considering the price tag...

...the 300 does not have "upgraded" leather compared to the Charger just different type of leather in top trims.....the Charger starts with cloth seats where the 300 begin with basic relatively lower quality leather (Limited trim)....then you have middle trims where the 300 get Nappa leather and the Charger get Nappa or a combo of Nappa/Suede. 300 top trim get Poltrona Frau brand leather and top trim Chargers (SRT and SRT Hellcat) get either Nappa/perforated Alcantara combo or Laguna leather.

The 300 is exactly like a Charger with couple of extra wood/metal trims, leather wrapped dash and upper door panels in the top trim (Platinum), softer suspension (except for the 300S which gets exacty the same suspension tuning as the Charger RT) and couple of extra gadgets...nothing more.

Mr Hyde

Are you being serious, or am I being trolled???

If you to take an Avalon vs a Sports suspension 3 series down a cobblestone NYC street, one definitely has a rougher ride in direct comparison to the other.

Here's Autotrader's take on the new 300 vs Charger in regards to Driving experience.

2015 Chrysler 300 vs. 2015 Dodge Charger: What's the Difference? - Autotrader

""In order to distinguish the 300 from the Charger, Chrysler has clearly set up some major differences between the two sedans. Specifically, the Charger is rougher around the edges, with more wind noise, more engine noise, sharper handling and a rougher ride. The 300, on the other hand, emphasizes luxury, and even base models offer a smooth, comfortable driving experience that's surprisingly enjoyable on even harsh road surfaces.......while the V8-powered Charger feels like a high-performance muscle car, when the 300 is paired with the same engine, it feels like a luxury sedan thanks to ride and handling that feels a little more stable and composed -- though not necessarily any less sharp. With that said, we don't want to give the impression that the Charger offers a mediocre driving experience, because it doesn't. But the two cars certainly show their respective benefits when you climb behind the wheel."""

That bold part sure sounds like more N,V,H to me.....
That flat out says exactly what I have been saying, and you seem to not want to acknowledge in the least.

There is a part mentioning how many luxury options you can get on a Charger like a heated steering wheel, etc, but in the end that doesn't change their conclusions or mine in regards to the driving experience.

There's more to fit than interior panels. Walking around the exterior of both cars, just look at their bumpers, grills, trim pieces, etc. The fit and finish of all of those are much better on the 300. Those are design specs, not assembly issues. When you look at the pre-update Charger, that front end was no better put together than most economy cars. The new one is much better, but as it improved, so did the new 300 as well.

That's no surpise to me when comparing one vehicle which was designed with an eye on selling at a discount en masse to rental agencies, gov't agencies, police forces, etc as a fleet vehicle vs one which has an eye to a more premium market (although there are plent of fleet 300s as well).

Actually you mentioned how a couple of people you know traded their 3 series cars on Chargers as if they were somehow an equivalent vehicle.

I agree that the new Charger is a nice car for the price tag, but sorry, the only person you seem to have convinced that it is in any way a luxury vehicle is yourself.

saturno_v

Yes, I'm serious, you are confusing rough, crashing suspension with stiffer ride

Stiffer and "rougher" to me are two different concepts....a WRX has a rough ride, a 3 Series has a sporty, stiff ride.....if for you the two are equivalents, so be it....it has to do how the suspension rebound, amount of travel, etc...compliance in one word.

A 335i MSport or my Infiniti Q50S does not make you feel tired after a long trip, a Ford Focus ST does within 50 miles.

"The 300 has handling that feels a "little more stable and composed"?? Are these guys actually driven the things they talk about?? Reading the snippet give me the impression that these guys also confuse "harsh" with "sportier".

We can throw snippet of driving impression back and forth at each other (which are still impression of others)

My turn:

This is C&D said about the old pre-2015 Charger

2011 Charger V6

" genuine sport-sedan agility"

"American Car, Italian Overlords, German Feel"

"In addition to the fantastic reupholstering job, engineers fussed with the suspension. This was as successful as the interior redesign: This beefy, 4113-pound American sedan has a decidedly Bavarian balance of ride comfort and handling, and its predecessor never felt so sophisticated. Body control is admirable, the Charger allowing just a few degrees of tilt during aggressive cornering, and neither end overwhelms the other"

2012 SXT V6 road test

"It drives a lot like that other V-6 Charger, which is to say like a big German sports sedan. There’s a masterful balance between ride and handling"


...this was before the redesign.....with the latest rework the rougher edges have been shaved off further.

2015 V6 First Drive

"For 2015, though, some refreshed surfaces, instrumentation, and minor control-input changes pay big dividends. A new, highly stylized yet restrained instrument-surround insert—Dodge calls it an “aluminum-lithograph driver bezel”—exudes an upscale look and feel, but it’s let down by the acres of textured plastic that cover the top of the dash. Although soft to the touch and light-years better than the plastics of just a few years ago, it still feels a bit industrial, like the material that might cover the gripping surfaces on a piece of exercise equipment. That said, a low-key matte finish mitigates the effect, while attractive stitched-fabric door upholstery and redesigned seating helps keep things looking and feeling luxe, something that can’t be said for the Abu Ghraib–grade benches of the previous car"

"It’s been a while since we last had some seat time in a Charger equipped with the Pentastar V-6 and eight-speed-automatic powertrain, but the almost stunningly low interior-noise levels in the 2015 model had us wondering whether Dodge had stuffed the body panels full of foam rubber."

2015 Scat Pack (SRT Engine, standard RT Road and Track non adjustable suspension) test drive

"The performance-tuned suspension doesn’t have the adjustable factor of the Hellcat’s or the SRT 392 Charger’s but is never jouncy in the middle of travel and delivers good body control without beating up its occupants. There’s almost no side-to-side head toss, even on undulating, high-crown roads"


The only thing that the 300 has different outside is the amount of chrome finished trims.....painting quality is the same, assembly, as we said, is the same.....similarly when you compare some BMW models where they have the luxury line and the Sport line.....the sport line get more black trims and no chrome around the door frames..the Sport line look more aggressive and sporty but no less upscale compared to the Luxury line.....consider also that with similar equipment the two cars price tag is basically the same....4K sticker price separates a base Charger from a base 300.....in the 300 base you get leather, back up camera, some electric adjustment for seats, electric adjustable steering wheel, the 8.4" full UConnect instead of the 5" base one and nicer wheels....option the Charger similarly and you get there.


You said it...both sell heavily to rental fleets so it's a moot point...surprisingly actually you often get more discount on the V8 300s than the V8 Chargers (probably more demand), then you have the SRT which are usually much tougher to negotiate.

Compared to a 328i and with a 40-45 max budget?? Charger RT Road And Track hands down every day of the week and twice on Sunday....ask forum member 012TL-GLM how harsh and unrefined his Charger RT Road & Track is and wait for the reply (he had a 2012 TL SH-AWD before)

To me the new Charger is a premium sport sedan when optioned right.....definitely more premium sport sedan than any Accord, TLX, Maxima and similar piece of hardware.

All of this may not mean anything to you if don't actually experience for yourself....if you have 15 minutes of spare time, go to a Dodge dealer and ask to test drive a properly optioned RT Road and Track, roughly same price tag (actually less) than your TLX SH-AWD....do it for the fun of it and report back.....how do you think I changed my opinion on the Charger from few years ago?? Rented at some point a 2015 and I was very impressed (granted was the standard el cheapo SE rental trim) and then I test drove the RT Road and Track, the SRT 392 and the Hellcat....I'm going to do my SRT track experience in May in Arizona (it came for free after we purchased our Grand Cheronee SRT) where I will take the Charger and Challenger SRT 392, Hellcat and Viper on the track.

Mr Hyde

LOL. I'm well aware of the difference between a well balanced sports suspension vs something that is just needlessly harsh. It might be a small price to pay, or a worthy compromise depending on the balance acheived, but as the review that compared the 2 cars directly against each other, a "rougher" ride is a "rougher" ride.

Wow those Charger reviews are outstanding, it must outhandle a Porsche!!

You can spend the next 2 days copying and pasting reviews of the Charger, but they are one sided, and meaningless since there is no direct comparison to the 300.

I posted a review directly comparing a 300 to a Charger, back to back which pretty much said what I said verbatim in regards to their N/V/H.

BeezleTL85

The new Maximas are gross looking, no thanks.

saturno_v

[QUOTE]...and the Charger achieve a very good good balance...that review frankly is suspect because they made a generic comparison between the two with no mention of specific trims...a 300 Limited is very comfy but is hardly a handling champion, the 300S is as stiff as a Charger RT and handle as well....a Charger SE has a softer ride than a 300S.


Complain with C&D not me.... ...yep it is an outstanding large sport sedan for the money. Kudos to FCA....will the next generation be as good?? Who knows?? It should inherit the new lightweight Alfa Romeo Giulia RWD platform and shrink in size...we will see...

Directly compared to the 300, the Charger has a stiffer, sportier ride (the 300S is the same) and as a consequence it has better handling (much better compared to the 300 Limited), there is not noticeable (tested) more road noise (again the different trims all come with different tire size and types so a comparison must be done on a trim by trim level)
The SRT trims are nosier on the road due to their enormous sticky tires despite being equipped with Active Noise Cancellation.
Engine note is a touch more throatier (by design) on V8 and V6 Rallye trims at full throttle.

E90 Skye

Maxima interior is great when properly optioned. But I didn't like that CVT even though it's better than most CVTs i've driven... also that front end... gross... the back actually grew on me, and in person it is a lot better than photos. But the TLX in both 2.4 and 3.5(especially SH-AWD) feel a little lighter on its feet and "easier" to point.

also... I don't understand why sales figures should sway anyones decision on buying a car? You should buy a car b/c you like it, not b/c other people/the masses do. One of my favorite midsize family sedans (Mazda 6) is trounced by almost every other major company offering, but I'd choose that in a heartbeat if I was looking at a 25k car.

RDX10

I also really like the mazda 6. I hate how it only comes with a shitty 4 cylinder though. It begs for a V6 or at the very least a turbo version of the 4 cylinder (like the cx9) and awd.

hadokenuh

I think the turboed engine will definitely make its way to the 6 soon. My problem with the 6 is the road noise. Otherwise, they are great cars, and the 3 hatchback too.

hadokenuh

Some people don't even consider American brand so they usually cross shop the Accord EXL, Avalon, Camry XLE, Altima SEL, Maxima, or TL, (used) ES350. Common features include basic FWD, V6, some luxury features and amenities, cheap to maintain and reasonably reliable with minimal maintenance. All for under 35K.

E90 Skye

Totally agree. That chassis, and design are amazing, but that motor... while it's not bad for being stuck in traffic and everyday commuting... is a little anemic. I had a 6 as a rental in NY, and drove to Philly and back and in sport it's not bad, but when you're doing 55 or so and you need to punch it... make sure to turn the a/c off lol... otherwise you'll get really sad. That being said, at it's price point i'm not expecting incredible performance or noise levels when you're giving me great driving dynamics in a family sedan, however including a turbo 4 would definitely make that a much more appealing car.

saturno_v

I have to agree with you totally...rented a new Mazda 6 once, beautiful looking (I personally believe it's the best looking FWD sedan out there currently) actually impressive interiors for the price, excellent road manners but that anemic engine and road noise was a total letdown and so was the transmission.....quite lot of unrealized potential.

A new turbo AWD Mazdaspeed6 with better gearbox (even better a manual option) and some more road noise treatment would be a killer deal.

RDX10

I really hope it does. Looking at some of the things the new cx9 will have, like napa seats, and real wood trim, I hope some of that trickles down. I heard about the wind noise from a lot of people actually. It is something that for sure needs to be fixed.


I love love love the exterior design, especially in white. Really has some classic rwd proportions. I can't stand cars with anemic engines, it just does not work for me. I don't care how fuel efficient a car is, if it can't pull the skin off of rice pudding, it is a no go for me. I am not expecting napa and real wood, and aluminum...etc. But I really think that if they are going to market the brand as sporty, less anemic engines are a start.

kevTL888

i love Mazda 6's exterior and interior design but the car is just way to big for my liking.

TacoBello

Wait, you want a sporty variant with more power, amongst other things, yet you want it quieter? Dafuq kind of drugs are you smoking? The reason you buy the sporty variant is for the feeling, the noise, the everything.

Im still confused as fuck as to what point you're trying to make here. Is it that you don't like the TLX? If so, great. But no one seems to really give a shit and you're not changing anyone else's opinion on the matter. Liking a car is very subjective and if people like their TLX, why are you losing sleep over it?

I've come to the realization that although I may not love the TLX (I don't mind it, but I don't love it), I have no right to shit on other people for doing so, like I did in the past. It won't get anyone anywhere by doing so. They like their car for their own reason, and whether one car is better than another is purely subjective. If the TLX meets their needs and desires, then it's doing it's job. And I'm guessing since Acura sold around 50k of them last year, people must be liking something about it.

hadokenuh

I am in agreement with Saturno here. There is engine/exhaust noise (good for sports/driving dynamics), and annoying road/tire/wind noise.

TacoBello

Let me point you in the direction of Mercedes Benz. A 20k Mazda 6 is NOT what you're after.

hadokenuh

Thanks, but no thanks

saturno_v

As forum user Hadokenuh has correctly pointed out, there is noise and there is noise......the Mazda 6 I drove had the type of noise I want to be eliminated...and there are cars in that price range that do better anyway.

...Acura with the TLX does better in the noise department than some much pricier Mercedes sedans.....

youngTL

What was the issue with the transmission? I haven't driven one (I badly wanted a V6 and torque vectoring AWD) so I'm curious.

saturno_v

Slow and only 6 speed (not many cogs nowadays for a modern automatic gearbox) not belonging to a car with sporty intentions IMHO

Stew4HD

Thread needs renaming.. TLX v Mazda 6

kurtatx

It's almost as bad as the Model 3 thread on the Automotive News forum.

E90 Skye

This is correct.

as Hadokenuh already pointed out theres good noise and bad noise. The noise in the Mazda 6 is not horrible but it's definitely well below it's own segment average. The Accord, Camry, Sonata, Optima, Malibu are all much quieter (not asking for Lexus type quiet but more like Accord levels of quiet aka taking out wind noise and tire/road noise). I know the 16s are quieter than the 14-15 but in my driving it's still a step behind... maybe that explains why it's so much lighter than it's competition lol. (Although I think the new Malibu is fairly light too)

And I agree with @Saturno the 6 is probably the best looking FWD sedan out right now, especially that GT Tech.

Mike_TX

I think for some of you people, all your taste is in your mouth. How could you call this ugly?





I think it's pretty damn sexy myself.

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