Probably going to get an Audi A4 instead of TLX
12-05-2016, 05:01 PM
#81
I formerly had a 2013 TL SH-AWD. Now, I have a 2016 Q5 3.0T. Some considerations I had.
My primary hangup to owning the Audi was the reputation for junky reliability (not so different than Hyundai). Objectively, though, when you look at the latest hard data (such as from Consumer Reports), Audi's been one of the most reliable brands for at least the last 5 years now. On the other hand, Acura/Honda used to be dead reliable back in the 1990's, but is now a total basketcase; half their cars are below industry average. My TL drank a quart of oil every 3000 miles; there was a time when you could trust that any Honda would have all the mechanicals and electrical all ironed out; that was the strength of their brand name, and that strength is now completely gone. I still can't understand how the 3.7L V6, out since 2006 in the RL, would be left unfixed 6 to 8 years into the life cycle of so many models. Only Toyota/Lexus still carries the Japanese quality torch.
Anyhow, despite my research into Audi's improved reliability, I still bought an extended warranty for the Q5. To be fair, the Acura would also have needed an extended warranty, if you're serious about keeping the car past warranty. You also never know when a Honda transmission is going to go out; the only consistent trend the last decade is that they definitely have no grasp of their transmission problems.
In all other aspects, the Audi is head and shoulders above Acura. The supercharged 3.0T V6, despite being rated at 272hp, is way stronger and torquier than Honda's 305hp 3.7L. There's no outwards signs of cost-cutting, unlike the Accord-like atmosphere of the Acuras. Dynamically, the TL SH-AWD was a fine handler, but the Q5 with the 20-inch rims is not far behind for an SUV. The Audi body structure is rock-solid. The Audi gives an impression of precision engineering; the Acuras appeals in a bargain-basement, "I got a good deal on Black Friday," value for the money kind of way.
I still wouldn't own any European brand outright without a warranty, though.
My primary hangup to owning the Audi was the reputation for junky reliability (not so different than Hyundai). Objectively, though, when you look at the latest hard data (such as from Consumer Reports), Audi's been one of the most reliable brands for at least the last 5 years now. On the other hand, Acura/Honda used to be dead reliable back in the 1990's, but is now a total basketcase; half their cars are below industry average. My TL drank a quart of oil every 3000 miles; there was a time when you could trust that any Honda would have all the mechanicals and electrical all ironed out; that was the strength of their brand name, and that strength is now completely gone. I still can't understand how the 3.7L V6, out since 2006 in the RL, would be left unfixed 6 to 8 years into the life cycle of so many models. Only Toyota/Lexus still carries the Japanese quality torch.
Anyhow, despite my research into Audi's improved reliability, I still bought an extended warranty for the Q5. To be fair, the Acura would also have needed an extended warranty, if you're serious about keeping the car past warranty. You also never know when a Honda transmission is going to go out; the only consistent trend the last decade is that they definitely have no grasp of their transmission problems.
In all other aspects, the Audi is head and shoulders above Acura. The supercharged 3.0T V6, despite being rated at 272hp, is way stronger and torquier than Honda's 305hp 3.7L. There's no outwards signs of cost-cutting, unlike the Accord-like atmosphere of the Acuras. Dynamically, the TL SH-AWD was a fine handler, but the Q5 with the 20-inch rims is not far behind for an SUV. The Audi body structure is rock-solid. The Audi gives an impression of precision engineering; the Acuras appeals in a bargain-basement, "I got a good deal on Black Friday," value for the money kind of way.
I still wouldn't own any European brand outright without a warranty, though.
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holografique (12-06-2016)
12-15-2016, 07:00 PM
#84
Racer
I actually test drove an 2017A4 premium Quattro today because I have been looking at moving in a new direction. I was impressed with the reviews and ecu tuning potential. Living at 4000 feet sea level and loosing horsepower feel a turbo just spins faster so you don't loose any. I actually was disappointed. The car drove fine. I did a quick u-tune and remember how much I hate turbo lag. In all honesty it felt cheap like
maybe an upscale Jetta. I was not expecting that at all. The side mirrors looked horrible in my opinion like they would break off with a hand adjustment. I was immediately impressed with my in person feel of my TLX when I bought it. Again I reiterate I was not expecting that at all. I only had good thoughts going to the dealership and walking to the car. After the test drive I actually felt better about my car again.
I test drove a Mercedes AMG c450 now the C43 and I liked not only the performance of that but the luxury feel of it just sitting in there. I didn't feel it was leaps and bounds better then the TLX but just a little better. I want to try the C300 next because that would be more in my price range.
Again I am not trying to knock Audi at all. That was just my personally opinion. It was the white exterior and all black interior. For some it is possible for them to have the exact opposite reaction compared to the Audi compared to the TLX. I am just big on subjective feel. Like I feel "my girl or wife" is super hot where as someone else may not see the same thing.
maybe an upscale Jetta. I was not expecting that at all. The side mirrors looked horrible in my opinion like they would break off with a hand adjustment. I was immediately impressed with my in person feel of my TLX when I bought it. Again I reiterate I was not expecting that at all. I only had good thoughts going to the dealership and walking to the car. After the test drive I actually felt better about my car again.
I test drove a Mercedes AMG c450 now the C43 and I liked not only the performance of that but the luxury feel of it just sitting in there. I didn't feel it was leaps and bounds better then the TLX but just a little better. I want to try the C300 next because that would be more in my price range.
Again I am not trying to knock Audi at all. That was just my personally opinion. It was the white exterior and all black interior. For some it is possible for them to have the exact opposite reaction compared to the Audi compared to the TLX. I am just big on subjective feel. Like I feel "my girl or wife" is super hot where as someone else may not see the same thing.
Last edited by ultrapogi; 12-15-2016 at 07:11 PM.
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wlkeel (12-16-2016)
12-15-2016, 10:30 PM
#85
2015 TLX SH-AWD Elite BWP
^^ I did a short A4 test myself and yes , I felt a little bit of lag from the stop start , but after is way better than the TLX. As I was driving with the sales guy , I believe the drive select was on comfort . After switching to Dynamic was much better and I would say no contest of TLX. What I'm referring is the linearity between throttle input and the feeling of going faster . Kind of same feeling on my old TL. What I hate at my TLX is the "elastic" effect (how I like to name it) , you hear engine crawling but the speed build up is coming way after.
Regarding the fit and finish , on my opinion , is again better . The A4 seats (sport comfort) were much better than TLX (at same level as TL) , at least for me.
The Tech, it's again much , much better (and it wasn't the Technik version with virtual cockpit) , starting with the resolution of the 2 displays (even without virtual cockpit , you have quite big display between gauges ) , Android Auto, nice interior lighting , Blind spot (more evident than the small TLX lights) .
Overall, I think , the difference on price is worth it , especially if you lease it.
Like I mentioned earlier on the thread , I'm was thinking to start negotiating my TLX way out , but finally I decide to wait after winter as I'd like to check the new Q5 also.
All the cards are now on Audi side , unless the MMC TLX will get rid of ZF , then I may give Acura another chance, but it has to be something better than actual A4.
Regarding the fit and finish , on my opinion , is again better . The A4 seats (sport comfort) were much better than TLX (at same level as TL) , at least for me.
The Tech, it's again much , much better (and it wasn't the Technik version with virtual cockpit) , starting with the resolution of the 2 displays (even without virtual cockpit , you have quite big display between gauges ) , Android Auto, nice interior lighting , Blind spot (more evident than the small TLX lights) .
Overall, I think , the difference on price is worth it , especially if you lease it.
Like I mentioned earlier on the thread , I'm was thinking to start negotiating my TLX way out , but finally I decide to wait after winter as I'd like to check the new Q5 also.
All the cards are now on Audi side , unless the MMC TLX will get rid of ZF , then I may give Acura another chance, but it has to be something better than actual A4.
12-16-2016, 12:07 AM
#86
There's a lot bigger difference between an A4 and a TLX 2.4 Tech than just a nicer interior (although the A4 interior is much nicer). The A4 has an extra 50hp and 90 lb/ft of torque and the torque is available at a much lower RPM. The A4 is also available with AWD. Personally, I'm OK with the screen on top of the dash and didn't like the two screens/touchscreen layout in the TLX, but I understand how someone could have the opposite opinion. However, the virtual cockpit in the Audi is a generation ahead of the system in the TLX (and CarPlay/Android Auto is a nice touch too).
Of course, the A4 is significantly more expensive than a TLX 2.4 Tech, so it should be nicer. To me, it was worth the difference though.
Of course, the A4 is significantly more expensive than a TLX 2.4 Tech, so it should be nicer. To me, it was worth the difference though.
12-16-2016, 12:12 AM
#87
I actually test drove an 2017A4 premium Quattro today because I have been looking at moving in a new direction. I was impressed with the reviews and ecu tuning potential. Living at 4000 feet sea level and loosing horsepower feel a turbo just spins faster so you don't loose any. I actually was disappointed. The car drove fine. I did a quick u-tune and remember how much I hate turbo lag. In all honesty it felt cheap like
maybe an upscale Jetta. I was not expecting that at all. The side mirrors looked horrible in my opinion like they would break off with a hand adjustment. I was immediately impressed with my in person feel of my TLX when I bought it. Again I reiterate I was not expecting that at all. I only had good thoughts going to the dealership and walking to the car. After the test drive I actually felt better about my car again.
I test drove a Mercedes AMG c450 now the C43 and I liked not only the performance of that but the luxury feel of it just sitting in there. I didn't feel it was leaps and bounds better then the TLX but just a little better. I want to try the C300 next because that would be more in my price range.
Again I am not trying to knock Audi at all. That was just my personally opinion. It was the white exterior and all black interior. For some it is possible for them to have the exact opposite reaction compared to the Audi compared to the TLX. I am just big on subjective feel. Like I feel "my girl or wife" is super hot where as someone else may not see the same thing.
maybe an upscale Jetta. I was not expecting that at all. The side mirrors looked horrible in my opinion like they would break off with a hand adjustment. I was immediately impressed with my in person feel of my TLX when I bought it. Again I reiterate I was not expecting that at all. I only had good thoughts going to the dealership and walking to the car. After the test drive I actually felt better about my car again.
I test drove a Mercedes AMG c450 now the C43 and I liked not only the performance of that but the luxury feel of it just sitting in there. I didn't feel it was leaps and bounds better then the TLX but just a little better. I want to try the C300 next because that would be more in my price range.
Again I am not trying to knock Audi at all. That was just my personally opinion. It was the white exterior and all black interior. For some it is possible for them to have the exact opposite reaction compared to the Audi compared to the TLX. I am just big on subjective feel. Like I feel "my girl or wife" is super hot where as someone else may not see the same thing.
12-16-2016, 07:34 AM
#88
12-16-2016, 08:50 AM
#89
Correct me if I am wrong, but those reliability studies with Audi near the top are NOT long-term studies, correct? More like initial quality and reliability? I would not advise ANYONE to own a German car
out of warranty. Lease it, give it back. Buy it and trade it in three years, or whenever Audicare, etc., expires.
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on Acura vs. any German car for reliability after 3-4 years of ownership. And at the end of that term the net value is near the same, as well.
If you're going strictly for performance or luxury, that's a different story...
out of warranty. Lease it, give it back. Buy it and trade it in three years, or whenever Audicare, etc., expires.
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on Acura vs. any German car for reliability after 3-4 years of ownership. And at the end of that term the net value is near the same, as well.
If you're going strictly for performance or luxury, that's a different story...
12-16-2016, 09:00 AM
#90
I don't believe CR differentiates between long term and short term reliability. Therefore, short term reliability that lasts for 5 years then is naturally another name for long term reliability. CR is not like JD Powers where they simply sample for the first three months of ownership.
Now whether or not a buyer chooses to be scientific about where to put down their money is another matter. The fact of the matter is that a lot of Honda buyers have banked with almost a certain religious faith in the brand to be reliable and well engineered, no matter what the data says and based on experiences from 25 years ago, and have personally paid the price.
Now whether or not a buyer chooses to be scientific about where to put down their money is another matter. The fact of the matter is that a lot of Honda buyers have banked with almost a certain religious faith in the brand to be reliable and well engineered, no matter what the data says and based on experiences from 25 years ago, and have personally paid the price.
Correct me if I am wrong, but those reliability studies with Audi near the top are NOT long-term studies, correct? More like initial quality and reliability? I would not advise ANYONE to own a German car
out of warranty. Lease it, give it back. Buy it and trade it in three years, or whenever Audicare, etc., expires.
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on Acura vs. any German car for reliability after 3-4 years of ownership. And at the end of that term the net value is near the same, as well.
If you're going strictly for performance or luxury, that's a different story...
out of warranty. Lease it, give it back. Buy it and trade it in three years, or whenever Audicare, etc., expires.
If I were a betting man, I would put my money on Acura vs. any German car for reliability after 3-4 years of ownership. And at the end of that term the net value is near the same, as well.
If you're going strictly for performance or luxury, that's a different story...
12-16-2016, 09:24 AM
#91
Team Owner
Personally, I'll take a smaller turbo'd engine, over a larger naturally aspirated engine. A V6 can't even come close to the amount of a torque a turbo 4 can put down, below 4000 rpm (where most driving occurs).
12-16-2016, 10:41 AM
#92
Racer
^^ I did a short A4 test myself and yes , I felt a little bit of lag from the stop start , but after is way better than the TLX. As I was driving with the sales guy , I believe the drive select was on comfort . After switching to Dynamic was much better and I would say no contest of TLX. What I'm referring is the linearity between throttle input and the feeling of going faster . Kind of same feeling on my old TL. What I hate at my TLX is the "elastic" effect (how I like to name it) , you hear engine crawling but the speed build up is coming way after.
Regarding the fit and finish , on my opinion , is again better . The A4 seats (sport comfort) were much better than TLX (at same level as TL) , at least for me.
The Tech, it's again much , much better (and it wasn't the Technik version with virtual cockpit) , starting with the resolution of the 2 displays (even without virtual cockpit , you have quite big display between gauges ) , Android Auto, nice interior lighting , Blind spot (more evident than the small TLX lights) .
Overall, I think , the difference on price is worth it , especially if you lease it.
Like I mentioned earlier on the thread , I'm was thinking to start negotiating my TLX way out , but finally I decide to wait after winter as I'd like to check the new Q5 also.
All the cards are now on Audi side , unless the MMC TLX will get rid of ZF , then I may give Acura another chance, but it has to be something better than actual A4.
Regarding the fit and finish , on my opinion , is again better . The A4 seats (sport comfort) were much better than TLX (at same level as TL) , at least for me.
The Tech, it's again much , much better (and it wasn't the Technik version with virtual cockpit) , starting with the resolution of the 2 displays (even without virtual cockpit , you have quite big display between gauges ) , Android Auto, nice interior lighting , Blind spot (more evident than the small TLX lights) .
Overall, I think , the difference on price is worth it , especially if you lease it.
Like I mentioned earlier on the thread , I'm was thinking to start negotiating my TLX way out , but finally I decide to wait after winter as I'd like to check the new Q5 also.
All the cards are now on Audi side , unless the MMC TLX will get rid of ZF , then I may give Acura another chance, but it has to be something better than actual A4.
Last edited by ultrapogi; 12-16-2016 at 10:43 AM.
12-16-2016, 08:39 PM
#93
It's actually crazy how powerful and reliable Turbo 4s are these days. These aren't the same ticking time bombs from the 1980s.
Personally, I'll take a smaller turbo'd engine, over a larger naturally aspirated engine. A V6 can't even come close to the amount of a torque a turbo 4 can put down, below 4000 rpm (where most driving occurs).
Personally, I'll take a smaller turbo'd engine, over a larger naturally aspirated engine. A V6 can't even come close to the amount of a torque a turbo 4 can put down, below 4000 rpm (where most driving occurs).
12-16-2016, 10:36 PM
#94
Burning Brakes
Question about Audi, Mercedes and other luxury alternatives - I know squat about luxury cars. I was told that not all oil change places will handle the luxury cars due to tools or some such thing. Is this still true?
12-16-2016, 11:27 PM
#95
Racer
Not to thread hijack but just for info purposes I test drove a 2017 Merc c300 today and I have to correct a statement I made before. It is super nice inside. It made my TLX feel kinda cheap going back to my car. Also the only difference between the A4 and the C300 is about 10 more horsepower to the Audi. They are both turbo 4s and about the same amount of torque. I was very impressed with the Merc the looked and the way it drove. I think I have found my next car. I need to pay down my lease so I will have to wait 6 more months to a year.
The turbo 4 in the 2017 Merc made Wards 10 best engine list too.
The turbo 4 in the 2017 Merc made Wards 10 best engine list too.
Last edited by ultrapogi; 12-16-2016 at 11:32 PM.
12-17-2016, 04:33 AM
#96
Not to thread hijack but just for info purposes I test drove a 2017 Merc c300 today and I have to correct a statement I made before. It is super nice inside. It made my TLX feel kinda cheap going back to my car. Also the only difference between the A4 and the C300 is about 10 more horsepower to the Audi. They are both turbo 4s and about the same amount of torque. I was very impressed with the Merc the looked and the way it drove. I think I have found my next car. I need to pay down my lease so I will have to wait 6 more months to a year.
The turbo 4 in the 2017 Merc made Wards 10 best engine list too.
The turbo 4 in the 2017 Merc made Wards 10 best engine list too.
12-17-2016, 04:40 AM
#97
It's actually crazy how powerful and reliable Turbo 4s are these days. These aren't the same ticking time bombs from the 1980s.
Personally, I'll take a smaller turbo'd engine, over a larger naturally aspirated engine. A V6 can't even come close to the amount of a torque a turbo 4 can put down, below 4000 rpm (where most driving occurs).
Personally, I'll take a smaller turbo'd engine, over a larger naturally aspirated engine. A V6 can't even come close to the amount of a torque a turbo 4 can put down, below 4000 rpm (where most driving occurs).
Along with adding complexity, force inducted engines don't normally last as long as naturally aspirated engines. (I guess this is more for people that actually purchase their vehicles than lease.) There are exceptions, but this is a general comment.
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a35tl (12-17-2016)
12-17-2016, 10:54 AM
#98
Racer
For what it's worth, the Merc C300 is dog slow compared to a TLX V6. I had an on road experience against a C300, although a "spoiled kid" was driving. He seemed a little "upset" that I could easily out accelerate him, he saw fit to follow me until he had the opportunity to cut me off. (I don't make it a habit to "race" little kids but he was acting like a real tool.)
12-17-2016, 11:15 AM
#99
It would be interesting to know what year that car was that you raced? The c300 didn't get the turbo 4 (241hp 273TQ) until 2015 which I thought felt great. Previous it had a 3.5 v6 2013-2014 that was a good chuck weaker then the TLX V6 at (248hp 251TQ). Then before that a 3.0 v6 (2008-2012)that was weaker still (228hp 221TQ). So I would say the brand new ones are on par with the Audi A4 and with a quick re flash of the turbo it could go from spirited to strong acceleration. So I guess I would say in the past they were pigs so people have discounted them.
As far as what year the C300 was, it was defintely the new body style (baby S class), and I would venture to say a 2016.
12-17-2016, 11:16 AM
#100
Racer
Okay also I found an equation to calculate my crank horsepower at elevation so at 4000ft my TLX has 255hp and 235tq. So the turbo 4 in the A4 or the Merc c300 would feel better just by the numbers since turbos spin faster at altitude to keep boost constant.
formula
elevation in feet x 0.03 x sea level horsepower / 1000 =amount of power lost
4000ft x 0.03 x 290hp /1000=34.8hp lost
4000ft x 0.03 x 267tq /1000= 32tq lost
formula
elevation in feet x 0.03 x sea level horsepower / 1000 =amount of power lost
4000ft x 0.03 x 290hp /1000=34.8hp lost
4000ft x 0.03 x 267tq /1000= 32tq lost
12-17-2016, 12:01 PM
#101
Racer
Don't get me wrong, the Merc C300 is a nice car overall, but for ~$60k there's a little to be desired in the performance department - especially considering the V6 TLX is closer to $40k with many similar options. But, all in all, they are not in the same league.
As far as what year the C300 was, it was defintely the new body style (baby S class), and I would venture to say a 2016.
As far as what year the C300 was, it was defintely the new body style (baby S class), and I would venture to say a 2016.
12-18-2016, 11:55 AM
#102
Yea you are probably right that I am comparing apples to oranges. I guess I got on this tangent because of some of my disappointments with Acura and the TLX. I started looking at the A4 then the C300. You are absolutely right though you get a ton of options with Acura for the starting price of a European brand. The c300 I test drove was $44k and yea I would have to give up options. I don't use a lot of them anyways so I was willing to sacrifice. I just wasnt impressed as much with the A4. The reason I started adding to this thread was because of my initial test drive and experience with the A4. I guess at the end of the day the only thing that matters whatever vehicle someone gets is that they want to feel satisfied without regrets no matter the performance or luxury of the vehicle. When I first got my TLX I gave it 5 out of 5 stars. Now i would change that to 3 out of 5. That is why I was looking for an out because of my own personal dissapoitnments.
I've observed a general progression in automotive purchases amongst consumers: used or American -> Japanese -> German (European) -> English -> Italian. (Nothing is wrong with any of the categories that makes one "better" than the others necessarily.) What can also be said is this is also an progression in ancillary costs, eg parts/labor, insurance, maintenance, and overall cost of ownership. These are hard and fast, but generally it's tough to compare vehicles from different categories.
12-18-2016, 01:45 PM
#103
Suzuka Master
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Luxury cars are always more costly than the sum of their parts, that's why they are luxuries.
12-18-2016, 02:19 PM
#104
Suzuka Master
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As far as power and acceleration, today's turbo 4's can match some V6/V8's. However, they do not sound any where as nice. Many are so quite OEMs have to use artificial sounds to simulate engine notes. But a 4 banger is a 4 banger.
Should be match or exceed most NA-V6 & many NA-V8.
Along with adding complexity, force inducted engines don't normally last as long as naturally aspirated engines. (I guess this is more for people that actually purchase their vehicles than lease.) There are exceptions, but this is a general comment.
Should be match or exceed most NA-V6 & many NA-V8.
Along with adding complexity, force inducted engines don't normally last as long as naturally aspirated engines. (I guess this is more for people that actually purchase their vehicles than lease.) There are exceptions, but this is a general comment.
Both the buses & trucks had engine longevity requirements that far exceeded any automobiles. Turbos on cars sucked for reliability early on because the were mostly NA- conversions without any real computer control. Manufactures today are offering basic engines designed from the ground up to handle a turbo instillation.
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wlkeel (12-19-2016)
12-18-2016, 07:45 PM
#105
Burning Brakes
I looked at two vehicles online today - the Mercedes and BMW entry level vehicles. Both came out to about $52,000 equipped the way I'd want them. A tad more than I want to spend but not holy crap expensive. I was out for a walk earlier and saw a new TLX. Honestly from behind it looks fine to me. When I got to the front though I have to admit it is hideous.
12-18-2016, 08:44 PM
#106
I looked at two vehicles online today - the Mercedes and BMW entry level vehicles. Both came out to about $52,000 equipped the way I'd want them. A tad more than I want to spend but not holy crap expensive. I was out for a walk earlier and saw a new TLX. Honestly from behind it looks fine to me. When I got to the front though I have to admit it is hideous.
12-18-2016, 08:50 PM
#107
Burning Brakes
I forgot to mention I also looked at the A4 and TLX online. I must be missing something but other than the GT package, I didn't see an option for a rear camera. I saw rear sensors to beep but no camera. Pretty sure it was an option before. Maybe it is there but I couldn't find it. Rocketsfan - curse you now I have to go back and look at it again! 
12-18-2016, 09:14 PM
#108
I forgot to mention I also looked at the A4 and TLX online. I must be missing something but other than the GT package, I didn't see an option for a rear camera. I saw rear sensors to beep but no camera. Pretty sure it was an option before. Maybe it is there but I couldn't find it. Rocketsfan - curse you now I have to go back and look at it again!
As for the rear camera, if you're talking about the backup camera on the TLX, it's there, and is standard. As for the rear sensors, if you're talking about the rear parking sensors, they're only available on the Advance package. I have both and both have been useful. There are times where the backup camera is not very useful at night, however, because of the graininess in low-light, but it's never been completely useless.
12-19-2016, 03:10 PM
#110
Of course it's bland, it's Honda. Honda are mostly updated at the mid-cycle refresh, and that's it. However, for the most part, they age well. I still see a boat load of Gen 2 and Gen 3 TL's on the road still, and many still look fresh.
12-21-2016, 06:26 PM
#111
Racer
Just an interesting observation. The Audi A4 made the list of nominees but did not make it to the top 10
here is a quote on how they do their testing,
"WardsAuto editors evaluated the 40 vehicles in October and November, driving to and from home, work, school, the hardware store and on weekend roadtrips. There is no instrumented testing. Vehicles must have a base price no higher than $62,000 to be eligible.
Editors score each powertrain based on horsepower, torque, comparative specs, noise attenuation, observed fuel economy and the application of new technology. The guiding principles: Does the engine or electric propulsion system truly sell the car or raise the bar for its competitive set?"
And the winners
The Class of 2017 in alphabetical order:
here is a quote on how they do their testing,
"WardsAuto editors evaluated the 40 vehicles in October and November, driving to and from home, work, school, the hardware store and on weekend roadtrips. There is no instrumented testing. Vehicles must have a base price no higher than $62,000 to be eligible.
Editors score each powertrain based on horsepower, torque, comparative specs, noise attenuation, observed fuel economy and the application of new technology. The guiding principles: Does the engine or electric propulsion system truly sell the car or raise the bar for its competitive set?"
And the winners
The Class of 2017 in alphabetical order:
- 3.0L Turbocharged DOHC I-6 (BMW M240i)
- 1.5L DOHC 4-cyl./Dual Motor EREV (Chevrolet Volt)
- 3.6L DOHC V-6/Dual Motor PHEV (Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid)
- 2.3L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Ford Focus RS)
- 2.0L DOHC 4-cyl./Dual Motor HEV (Honda Accord Hybrid)
- 1.4L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Hyundai Elantra Eco)
- 3.0L Turbocharged DOHC V-6 (Infiniti Q50)
- 2.5L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Mazda CX-9)
- 2.0L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Mercedes-Benz C300)
- 2.0L Turbo/Supercharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Volvo V60 Polestar)
01-30-2017, 11:14 AM
#112
Former Sponsor
Sorry to hear you've been unhappy with the Acura, and for all of those in the same boat (since I've seen a couple of these threads lately), we actually specialize in the German market!
We're the northeastern distributor of APR and the only importer of MSS spring kits!
Keep us in mind, and best of luck!
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We're the northeastern distributor of APR and the only importer of MSS spring kits!
Keep us in mind, and best of luck!
Feel free to PM me with any questions.
01-25-2018, 08:24 PM
#114
At the moment, I agree: buy = Acura, lease = Audi...
I mean, unless you OK with the possibility of having to spend a lot on repairs - I'm not trying to claim that modern Audi's are any less reliable than Acuras, just there is no denying that when you do have to fix Audis, they're damn expensive.
I'm not saying don't lease an Acura, if you like it. Just that I'd probably get a little more driving satisfaction from an Audi, until Acura releases 2nd gen TLXs...
I mean, unless you OK with the possibility of having to spend a lot on repairs - I'm not trying to claim that modern Audi's are any less reliable than Acuras, just there is no denying that when you do have to fix Audis, they're damn expensive.
I'm not saying don't lease an Acura, if you like it. Just that I'd probably get a little more driving satisfaction from an Audi, until Acura releases 2nd gen TLXs...
01-25-2018, 08:39 PM
#116
Suzuka Master
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Just an interesting observation. The Audi A4 made the list of nominees but did not make it to the top 10
here is a quote on how they do their testing,
"WardsAuto editors evaluated the 40 vehicles in October and November, driving to and from home, work, school, the hardware store and on weekend roadtrips. There is no instrumented testing. Vehicles must have a base price no higher than $62,000 to be eligible.
Editors score each powertrain based on horsepower, torque, comparative specs, noise attenuation, observed fuel economy and the application of new technology. The guiding principles: Does the engine or electric propulsion system truly sell the car or raise the bar for its competitive set?"
And the winners
The Class of 2017 in alphabetical order:
here is a quote on how they do their testing,
"WardsAuto editors evaluated the 40 vehicles in October and November, driving to and from home, work, school, the hardware store and on weekend roadtrips. There is no instrumented testing. Vehicles must have a base price no higher than $62,000 to be eligible.
Editors score each powertrain based on horsepower, torque, comparative specs, noise attenuation, observed fuel economy and the application of new technology. The guiding principles: Does the engine or electric propulsion system truly sell the car or raise the bar for its competitive set?"
And the winners
The Class of 2017 in alphabetical order:
- 3.0L Turbocharged DOHC I-6 (BMW M240i)
- 1.5L DOHC 4-cyl./Dual Motor EREV (Chevrolet Volt)
- 3.6L DOHC V-6/Dual Motor PHEV (Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid)
- 2.3L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Ford Focus RS)
- 2.0L DOHC 4-cyl./Dual Motor HEV (Honda Accord Hybrid)
- 1.4L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Hyundai Elantra Eco)
- 3.0L Turbocharged DOHC V-6 (Infiniti Q50)
- 2.5L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Mazda CX-9)
- 2.0L Turbocharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Mercedes-Benz C300)
- 2.0L Turbo/Supercharged DOHC 4-cyl. (Volvo V60 Polestar)
01-25-2018, 08:42 PM
#117
If you look at reports on "average cost of ownership over 10 years", Audi is pretty high up there - but that doesn't mean any one person is sure to have problems with reliability. Just that when you factor the numbers of problems across long term owners with (and this part is key) the expense of repairs when you do have some significant problems, that gets high.
Heck, even fixing small problems, on an Audi seems pretty expensive from my perspective - but most of my cars in the past have been Toyotas, so, take my perspective with a grain of salt, if you're wealthy enough to be say, complaining about problems at your vacation home, or with your private plane...
Heck, even fixing small problems, on an Audi seems pretty expensive from my perspective - but most of my cars in the past have been Toyotas, so, take my perspective with a grain of salt, if you're wealthy enough to be say, complaining about problems at your vacation home, or with your private plane...
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niray9 (01-25-2018)
01-25-2018, 08:46 PM
#118
If you look at reports on "average cost of ownership over 10 years", Audi is pretty high up there - but that doesn't mean any one person is sure to have problems with reliability. Just that when you factor the numbers of problems across long term owners with (and this part is key) the expense of repairs when you do have some significant problems, that gets high.
Heck, even fixing small problems, on an Audi seems pretty expensive from my perspective - but most of my cars in the past have been Toyotas, so, take my perspective with a grain of salt, if you're wealthy enough to be say, complaining about problems at your vacation home, or with your private plane...
Heck, even fixing small problems, on an Audi seems pretty expensive from my perspective - but most of my cars in the past have been Toyotas, so, take my perspective with a grain of salt, if you're wealthy enough to be say, complaining about problems at your vacation home, or with your private plane...
Infiniti Q50 is not doing great either from a reliability perspective (according to consumer reports). In addition the twin turbo V6 is relatively new and not sure how good it will be after 5-7 years.
01-25-2018, 08:54 PM
#119
Niray - according to scientific research and not just "well Acura must be reliable because that's what I've always heard, and I think so", Toyota and Lexus are cars that actually have very low long term cost of ownership. I don't wanna waste my money on car repairs, but, I did go ahead and purchase (not lease) an Acura despite those studies told me (that Acura is not quite as reliable as the anecdotal opinions you'll hear from pro-Honda/Acura folks). My "gut instinct" has usually served me pretty well in the past, we shall see if I was wrong this time, after a few years I guess?
I also strongly prefer to buy "good things at a good price (value)" - I don't generally like to pay a big premium for that "last 10%" improvment, I aim to buy from categories in the "middle", and try to pick products that are in a real "sweet spot" if I can, I'll get something that's really great, but still delivers great value for your money. Same with computer parts - so I have the nVidia 1070 GTX, not the 1080, and I found one that cost about 50% less than most others at the time, yet was high quality.
Current Acura TLX engines are fairly far behind all these other brand's turbos, and yet, I do still get a nearly 300 HP V6 in a car that, from my perspective, is a fantastic car. Do I want a 400HP+ 3.0L Turbo V6? Absolutely, but, I'm simply not going to find this kind of quality car, quiet ride, comfort, pleasing (to me) aesthetics, etc. for the same price (~$37K).
That's exactly what I want to change about my TLX! It just doesn't seem right that a nearly 300HP V6 should feel that way, and I feel like somehow, it's something Honda/Acura has done on purpose, as if they want the car to be more "smooth" and/or save on gas miliage. Well it's my damn car, let ME choose to not have "smooth"/slowed acceleration when I press the throttle. If I want smoother accel, I'll press the throttle down smoothly, not suddenly!
I also strongly prefer to buy "good things at a good price (value)" - I don't generally like to pay a big premium for that "last 10%" improvment, I aim to buy from categories in the "middle", and try to pick products that are in a real "sweet spot" if I can, I'll get something that's really great, but still delivers great value for your money. Same with computer parts - so I have the nVidia 1070 GTX, not the 1080, and I found one that cost about 50% less than most others at the time, yet was high quality.
Current Acura TLX engines are fairly far behind all these other brand's turbos, and yet, I do still get a nearly 300 HP V6 in a car that, from my perspective, is a fantastic car. Do I want a 400HP+ 3.0L Turbo V6? Absolutely, but, I'm simply not going to find this kind of quality car, quiet ride, comfort, pleasing (to me) aesthetics, etc. for the same price (~$37K).
...What I'm referring is the linearity between throttle input and the feeling of going faster . Kind of same feeling on my old TL. What I hate at my TLX is the "elastic" effect (how I like to name it) , you hear engine crawling but the speed build up is coming way after...
Last edited by Christopher.; 01-25-2018 at 09:06 PM.
01-25-2018, 10:18 PM
#120
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Current Acura TLX engines are fairly far behind all these other brand's turbos, and yet, I do still get a nearly 300 HP V6 in a car that, from my perspective, is a fantastic car. Do I want a 400HP+ 3.0L Turbo V6? Absolutely, but, I'm simply not going to find this kind of quality car, quiet ride, comfort, pleasing (to me) aesthetics, etc. for the same price (~$37K).
The bigger problem is that there isn't a trim that can compete with the 3.0T trims of others. IMO, in terms of performance, the TLX 2.4 does fine against 320i, IS200t, Q50 2.0T, etc. The TLX 3.5 does fine against A4 2.0T, 330i, C300, IS350, ATS 2.0T/3.6, etc.
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kurtatx (01-25-2018)