My Thoughts on Acura Bashing
01-10-2017, 11:24 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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My Thoughts on Acura Bashing
There is a lot of negativity about the TLX and Acura in general that is regularly expressed in these posts, to go with many positive comments about the TLX and, to a lesser extent, Acura. In trying to make sense of these widely disparate views, I have mused about why this is. My thoughts are my opinions, based on my 16 months leasing a 2015 3.5 SH-AWD Tech and my current lease of a 2016 2.4 Tech, now 9 months, as well as months of reading various AcuraZine posts, and independent car reviews. In no particular order:
1. I think it's important to note that this phenomenon of blog, forum, twitter, etc posts that are often on polar ends of the opinion spectrum is not unique to car blogs - it's an established trend in political, sports, and other forums. The silent majority still remains somewhat silent, and when you consider the tiny percentage of car owners that actually participate in forums such as these, it keeps things in perspective.
2. The majority of people that post negatively about the TLX come from the the 3rd or 4th gen TL. As a former TSX owner, I'm not sure if the converse is true, but I suspect it is. It makes a certain amount of sense, as the TL was a more expensive car, in large part due to the engine choices. Conversely, the 4th gen TL drew a lot of criticism from reviewers and owners for it's somewhat polarizing looks and some transmission issues. Personally, with experience driving the TL as a loaner on several occasions, I remained loyal to my TSX for overall value. Regardless, I find that some posters, previous owners and otherwise, have tended, IMHO, to overhype and glorify the TL in making their comparisons to the TLX. This is a common thing to do in many areas, and I have certainly been guilty of the same behaviour of being overly nostalgic about previous flawed products or people.
3. In terms of criticisms of the TLX from actual owners or people who have extensively test driven one, the significant majority come from those that purchased or leased a 2015 model. Not to minimize those issues, I do believe, based on my own experience, that the transmission issues associated with the 9 speed, and the 8 speed have been somewhat addressed in 2016 and 2017 models. It's easy to stay with old transmissions, but Aura took a risk using the ZF 9 speed and developing it's own 8 speed DCT, which has drawn criticism from many of the folks that also criticize ACURA for not being innovative. There is no question that it's taken some time to properly set up these transmissions for maximum effectiveness, and that is unfortunate, but it's also true that there are sacrifices to some aspects of performance when you pair a 9 speed tranny with a 290 hp engine, for example. It's also true that the vast majority of owners never notice or identify a problem (I have an excellent relationship with my Service Manager, a very honest and ethical guy). Regardless, like other manufacturers, perhaps it's time to focus on current editions vs previous ones.
4. Yes, I know that Acura has been slow to make substantial changes, such as offering a higher hp sportier version. However, this criticism seems substantially out of step with the fact that the vast majority of the market will not care, one way or the other. I hope they do, but with a declining sedan market overall, perhaps their best use of dollars should be focused on improving the car to appeal even more to mainstream buyers in a dwindling sedan market.
5. Related to all of the above, I find many criticisms of the TLX tend to be somewhat overstated and sometimes simply inaccurate. We seem to live in a world that if you just say it, it must be true.....For example, many reviewers speak favourably about the interior look and finish. I li have compared it to many other brands, luxury and otherwise that I have driven, but understand that others may not. However, to call it cheap looking is inaccurate and one that doesn't pass the observational "smell" test. I would add, with a little less fervour, that the harsh criticisms of the Infotainment system seem to ignore the many good things it does very well - the functions that most of us want - good sound, multiple ways to play music, multiple fast ways to make and receive calls, provide superb climate control etc. I know it doesn't look like my phone interface, but like many, I don't really care. I look forward to the next generation of the system, when it comes out, but I will continue to enjoy what I have. In any case, my main point here is that many of those who don't like the car tend to go over the top with their criticisms, and no doubt, the same might be said of a few that adore the car.
6. I would agree that Acura has it's flaws as a car company. However, I have a theory about why they may get harsher criticisms from some of their users than other companies who have their own product shortcomings. If you spend 60K on a luxury car like a fully loaded BMW or Mercedes or Lexus 350, etc, you may be less critical of the product in public given your outlay and given the somewhat higher "status" of those companies. I would also argue that outside of the enthusiasts, there are a lot of folks who buy those vehicles for status rather than performance and would not notice issues that some of the true enthusiasts would, or if they did, would likely not care. On the other hand, Acura is a significantly more affordable luxury brand, and in terms of sedans, attracts younger and less well heeled buyers who want a fully loaded car that will give them most of what the higher end luxury brands do, for less money. When the dust settles, and they see that Audios have a virtual dash, or BMW has a 320 HP, or Hyundai has a Turbo, or Honda looks similar for less money, etc etc, they are more likely to criticize Acura for not being as good as the other luxury brands and not much better than the mainstream brands. The reality is, IMHO that the TLX is a premium vehicle that provides good value and saves you significant cash rather than buying other luxury brands, and doesn't cost you a huge premium in stepping up from mainstream sedans.
7. The TLX is good value for the money, and many reviewers have stated the same thing. Most certainly there are many good value options out there, luxury or otherwise. It's a question of budget vs wants, and in that equation, my 2.4 Tech fits my needs very well. For some it won't, but don't trash it because it doesn't fit your particular needs. Surely your time and energy is better spent doing other things?
8. Lot of chatter about reliability. As yesterday I saw yet another German luxury car (Mercedes) broken down in our cold weather and being towed, I reflected on the fact that despite some of the nasty issues that a few folks have reported, for the most part Acuras remain reliable in the way that counts - keeping you on the road vs the side of the road.
I will end this little stream of consciousness by adding that it is not my intention to minimize other poster's legitimate issues and concerns, but rather to attempt to reconcile, in my clumsy way, the rather conflicting views one can often read on this forum. Perhaps it's also my way of focusing on the many positives, rather than the inevitable shortcomings. As a Leafs fan, that approach has kept me somewhat sane, and as a political observer and parent, it's my lifeline in the rather topsy turvy world we live in.
1. I think it's important to note that this phenomenon of blog, forum, twitter, etc posts that are often on polar ends of the opinion spectrum is not unique to car blogs - it's an established trend in political, sports, and other forums. The silent majority still remains somewhat silent, and when you consider the tiny percentage of car owners that actually participate in forums such as these, it keeps things in perspective.
2. The majority of people that post negatively about the TLX come from the the 3rd or 4th gen TL. As a former TSX owner, I'm not sure if the converse is true, but I suspect it is. It makes a certain amount of sense, as the TL was a more expensive car, in large part due to the engine choices. Conversely, the 4th gen TL drew a lot of criticism from reviewers and owners for it's somewhat polarizing looks and some transmission issues. Personally, with experience driving the TL as a loaner on several occasions, I remained loyal to my TSX for overall value. Regardless, I find that some posters, previous owners and otherwise, have tended, IMHO, to overhype and glorify the TL in making their comparisons to the TLX. This is a common thing to do in many areas, and I have certainly been guilty of the same behaviour of being overly nostalgic about previous flawed products or people.
3. In terms of criticisms of the TLX from actual owners or people who have extensively test driven one, the significant majority come from those that purchased or leased a 2015 model. Not to minimize those issues, I do believe, based on my own experience, that the transmission issues associated with the 9 speed, and the 8 speed have been somewhat addressed in 2016 and 2017 models. It's easy to stay with old transmissions, but Aura took a risk using the ZF 9 speed and developing it's own 8 speed DCT, which has drawn criticism from many of the folks that also criticize ACURA for not being innovative. There is no question that it's taken some time to properly set up these transmissions for maximum effectiveness, and that is unfortunate, but it's also true that there are sacrifices to some aspects of performance when you pair a 9 speed tranny with a 290 hp engine, for example. It's also true that the vast majority of owners never notice or identify a problem (I have an excellent relationship with my Service Manager, a very honest and ethical guy). Regardless, like other manufacturers, perhaps it's time to focus on current editions vs previous ones.
4. Yes, I know that Acura has been slow to make substantial changes, such as offering a higher hp sportier version. However, this criticism seems substantially out of step with the fact that the vast majority of the market will not care, one way or the other. I hope they do, but with a declining sedan market overall, perhaps their best use of dollars should be focused on improving the car to appeal even more to mainstream buyers in a dwindling sedan market.
5. Related to all of the above, I find many criticisms of the TLX tend to be somewhat overstated and sometimes simply inaccurate. We seem to live in a world that if you just say it, it must be true.....For example, many reviewers speak favourably about the interior look and finish. I li have compared it to many other brands, luxury and otherwise that I have driven, but understand that others may not. However, to call it cheap looking is inaccurate and one that doesn't pass the observational "smell" test. I would add, with a little less fervour, that the harsh criticisms of the Infotainment system seem to ignore the many good things it does very well - the functions that most of us want - good sound, multiple ways to play music, multiple fast ways to make and receive calls, provide superb climate control etc. I know it doesn't look like my phone interface, but like many, I don't really care. I look forward to the next generation of the system, when it comes out, but I will continue to enjoy what I have. In any case, my main point here is that many of those who don't like the car tend to go over the top with their criticisms, and no doubt, the same might be said of a few that adore the car.
6. I would agree that Acura has it's flaws as a car company. However, I have a theory about why they may get harsher criticisms from some of their users than other companies who have their own product shortcomings. If you spend 60K on a luxury car like a fully loaded BMW or Mercedes or Lexus 350, etc, you may be less critical of the product in public given your outlay and given the somewhat higher "status" of those companies. I would also argue that outside of the enthusiasts, there are a lot of folks who buy those vehicles for status rather than performance and would not notice issues that some of the true enthusiasts would, or if they did, would likely not care. On the other hand, Acura is a significantly more affordable luxury brand, and in terms of sedans, attracts younger and less well heeled buyers who want a fully loaded car that will give them most of what the higher end luxury brands do, for less money. When the dust settles, and they see that Audios have a virtual dash, or BMW has a 320 HP, or Hyundai has a Turbo, or Honda looks similar for less money, etc etc, they are more likely to criticize Acura for not being as good as the other luxury brands and not much better than the mainstream brands. The reality is, IMHO that the TLX is a premium vehicle that provides good value and saves you significant cash rather than buying other luxury brands, and doesn't cost you a huge premium in stepping up from mainstream sedans.
7. The TLX is good value for the money, and many reviewers have stated the same thing. Most certainly there are many good value options out there, luxury or otherwise. It's a question of budget vs wants, and in that equation, my 2.4 Tech fits my needs very well. For some it won't, but don't trash it because it doesn't fit your particular needs. Surely your time and energy is better spent doing other things?
8. Lot of chatter about reliability. As yesterday I saw yet another German luxury car (Mercedes) broken down in our cold weather and being towed, I reflected on the fact that despite some of the nasty issues that a few folks have reported, for the most part Acuras remain reliable in the way that counts - keeping you on the road vs the side of the road.
I will end this little stream of consciousness by adding that it is not my intention to minimize other poster's legitimate issues and concerns, but rather to attempt to reconcile, in my clumsy way, the rather conflicting views one can often read on this forum. Perhaps it's also my way of focusing on the many positives, rather than the inevitable shortcomings. As a Leafs fan, that approach has kept me somewhat sane, and as a political observer and parent, it's my lifeline in the rather topsy turvy world we live in.
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01-10-2017, 11:46 AM
#2
There are four lights!
That's my observation as well. The complaints in general that the TLX receive are from previous Acura owners. I came from a WRX before my TLX so the Acura was a huge upgrade for me in most metrics other than handling and sportiness. It's unfortunate that the 2015 models are the way they were but having had a early model 2011 X3 and the myriad of problems I had to deal with, I refused to be beta tester ever again.
01-10-2017, 12:53 PM
#3
Pro
First off, thanks for the excellent post. With that said, one excerpt stands out above the rest as to why all the complaining exists...
What if I told you that there was a time when Acura's tech was better than Audis, made more power than non-M BMWs with even needing a turbo, and looked better than Hondas, AND STILL cost less money. I can't speak for the rest, but that's the era of Acura that made me a believer.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
The power is what it is. I don't need a rocket for my DD, (obviously, my DD is a 4 banger TSX), but where's the progress? How many J series V6s are we going to go through? Where's the big advantage over the accord? 12hp? Give most tuners 6 extra octane to play with and they'll give you 12 crank hp pretty easily. Acura, You had 260 in 2002. You have 290 in 2017? Whatcha been doing? The 02 Accord V6 had 200hp. The 17 Accord has 278. The four banger? 206/182? Lexus is guilty of the same thing. I cannot in good faith consider an IS350 just because it's not actually fast by 2016 standards and it gets horrible mileage by 2016 standards. In 2006? Oh yeah, that motor had clout, but the world passes you buy if you rest on your laurels for 10 years. Everyone else pumps out new motors just to up the ante over and over again. Infiniti already had their japanese rivals beat in terms of power, but it was old and people didn't like the way it sounded, so they bring in one engine that's faster than the TLX, and another one that's way faster. BMW's trotted out 3 completely different I6 turbo motors in since 2007 that all were leaders of their class. Audi just changed their 2008-introduced "faster than any non M and AMG" supercharged V6 for turbo V6. So it's not that the TLX is legitimately slow, it's just that it looks like everyone else is actively trying to get better and better and better and Acura isn't even interested. There was a time when you could walk onto a mercedes, lexus, bmw, infiniti, acura, audi, and honda lot and say "okay, who has the most powerful V6" and Acura could say "We do."
In some sort of way, I guess I feel like one of those parents watching their child get Cs when they know they're capable of As. There's nothing actually wrong with being average, but I know they're capable of better because I witnessed it first hand. Navigation, a killer radio with a 6 disc in dash changer, and 260hp from a naturally aspirated 3.2 liter... purchased in november of 2001. I just can't pretend to be satisfied or even accepting of their progress in the last 15 years.
When the dust settles, and they see that Audios have a virtual dash, or BMW has a 320 HP, or Hyundai has a Turbo, or Honda looks similar for less money, etc etc, they are more likely to criticize Acura for not being as good as the other luxury brands and not much better than the mainstream brands. The reality is, IMHO that the TLX is a premium vehicle that provides good value and saves you significant cash rather than buying other luxury brands, and doesn't cost you a huge premium in stepping up from mainstream sedans.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
The power is what it is. I don't need a rocket for my DD, (obviously, my DD is a 4 banger TSX), but where's the progress? How many J series V6s are we going to go through? Where's the big advantage over the accord? 12hp? Give most tuners 6 extra octane to play with and they'll give you 12 crank hp pretty easily. Acura, You had 260 in 2002. You have 290 in 2017? Whatcha been doing? The 02 Accord V6 had 200hp. The 17 Accord has 278. The four banger? 206/182? Lexus is guilty of the same thing. I cannot in good faith consider an IS350 just because it's not actually fast by 2016 standards and it gets horrible mileage by 2016 standards. In 2006? Oh yeah, that motor had clout, but the world passes you buy if you rest on your laurels for 10 years. Everyone else pumps out new motors just to up the ante over and over again. Infiniti already had their japanese rivals beat in terms of power, but it was old and people didn't like the way it sounded, so they bring in one engine that's faster than the TLX, and another one that's way faster. BMW's trotted out 3 completely different I6 turbo motors in since 2007 that all were leaders of their class. Audi just changed their 2008-introduced "faster than any non M and AMG" supercharged V6 for turbo V6. So it's not that the TLX is legitimately slow, it's just that it looks like everyone else is actively trying to get better and better and better and Acura isn't even interested. There was a time when you could walk onto a mercedes, lexus, bmw, infiniti, acura, audi, and honda lot and say "okay, who has the most powerful V6" and Acura could say "We do."
In some sort of way, I guess I feel like one of those parents watching their child get Cs when they know they're capable of As. There's nothing actually wrong with being average, but I know they're capable of better because I witnessed it first hand. Navigation, a killer radio with a 6 disc in dash changer, and 260hp from a naturally aspirated 3.2 liter... purchased in november of 2001. I just can't pretend to be satisfied or even accepting of their progress in the last 15 years.
Last edited by TheAcAvenger; 01-10-2017 at 12:56 PM.
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01-10-2017, 01:01 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
I won't fault the car, enough has already been said about it when compared to past TLs and Acuras.
There is one thing though that must be mentioned. As a man of science, anything can be fixed as long as some money is injected into it. And that's were Acura has done a lot of wrong. Being known as a brand of reliability, blatantly refusing to acknowledge problems when they keep on pushing fixes and continuously refusing their mea colpea is not what customers expected. If they would at least try to fix problems without customers forcing for it, even if doing so multiple times and failing, it'd be a pass in my books. It's the constant fighting that turned me off, not very representative of a luxury brand. The servicing experience is an integral part of the luxury mantra, and that's something that Acura has ruined with the TLX to my eyes.
There is one thing though that must be mentioned. As a man of science, anything can be fixed as long as some money is injected into it. And that's were Acura has done a lot of wrong. Being known as a brand of reliability, blatantly refusing to acknowledge problems when they keep on pushing fixes and continuously refusing their mea colpea is not what customers expected. If they would at least try to fix problems without customers forcing for it, even if doing so multiple times and failing, it'd be a pass in my books. It's the constant fighting that turned me off, not very representative of a luxury brand. The servicing experience is an integral part of the luxury mantra, and that's something that Acura has ruined with the TLX to my eyes.
Last edited by pyrodan007; 01-10-2017 at 01:09 PM.
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01-10-2017, 05:16 PM
#5
Senior Moderator
The OP posted a very comprehensive and thoughtful post, to which I'd like to express my thanks.
Those who've truly had reliability issues deserve a pass for any venting with regard to their negative experiences. I feel very bummed out for them. Not every product is quality personified and Honda is no exception.
Those folks aside, I suspect the issue is more to do with managing expectations. Aside from first and second generation offerings, Acura sedans (mainly the TL) were never that far from their Accord cousin in terms of powertrain. And this seems to be a formula that Honda is sticking with through the TLX. To wit, Honda is unlikely to build an IS/Q50 counterpart anytime soon.
For most, the TLX is a capable sedan with respectable performance, nice features, attractive styling and good build quality. That was all I expected when I got mine and that's what I got. Thus far, no regrets.
Those who've truly had reliability issues deserve a pass for any venting with regard to their negative experiences. I feel very bummed out for them. Not every product is quality personified and Honda is no exception.
Those folks aside, I suspect the issue is more to do with managing expectations. Aside from first and second generation offerings, Acura sedans (mainly the TL) were never that far from their Accord cousin in terms of powertrain. And this seems to be a formula that Honda is sticking with through the TLX. To wit, Honda is unlikely to build an IS/Q50 counterpart anytime soon.
For most, the TLX is a capable sedan with respectable performance, nice features, attractive styling and good build quality. That was all I expected when I got mine and that's what I got. Thus far, no regrets.
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01-10-2017, 06:16 PM
#6
I'm thinking about changing to a "sport sedan" for my next car, and I've test driven a 320i xDrive, 328i xDrive, IS250, IS300, Q50, ATS 2.0T AWD, and a TLX SH-AWD tech. I almost didn't test drive the TLX because of what I read about them. I actually liked it the best. If I had never read any reviews, comments, etc. ahead of time, and someone had asked me what the best-rated vehicle was in this category was, I would have had to put the TLX at the top. I guess that's why it's important to test drive as many cars as possible.
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01-10-2017, 06:51 PM
#7
Suzuka Master
Just look at 2018 Kia Stinger, enough said.
Look at Kia/Hyundai and there you have a company focused with a plan and strategy. Acura can't get on a path without tripping over itself.
Look at Kia/Hyundai and there you have a company focused with a plan and strategy. Acura can't get on a path without tripping over itself.
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01-10-2017, 09:02 PM
#8
As I don't bash them, I decided not to respond directly. 
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01-10-2017, 09:04 PM
#9
Senior Moderator
Well said Maple.
Sorry, I'll break with my rule of going to far astray from the TLX, but it remains to be seen how well the idea of a 40-52k (the price range being quoted) Kia actually turns into sales. Its way too early to say how good of a plan /strategy this vehicle will be in the long run.
Sorry, I'll break with my rule of going to far astray from the TLX, but it remains to be seen how well the idea of a 40-52k (the price range being quoted) Kia actually turns into sales. Its way too early to say how good of a plan /strategy this vehicle will be in the long run.
01-10-2017, 09:11 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
It already has taken a hit, this is from autotrader.ca article about the Stinger. No mention about the TLX even though it's very similar:
..and a longer wheelbase than a number of its competitors in the segment, including the Audi A4, Infiniti Q50 and Lexus IS.
Last edited by pyrodan007; 01-10-2017 at 09:15 PM.
01-10-2017, 09:20 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Maple,
I agree with much of what you said. At this point I think the bashing actually needs to be louder and far more direct though. I don't think a 2x4 to the back of the head of Acura at this point would be subtle enough. It took a decade for Acura to get the message about the beak. I doubt they even removed the beak due to the incredibly bad sales or the chorus of journalists and acura enthusiasts telling them to dump it - I'm guessing they decided THEY wanted something new. I wouldn't assume they exactly are running any new ideas up the flagpole as their responses are slower than a government bureaucracy.
I agree with much of what you said. At this point I think the bashing actually needs to be louder and far more direct though. I don't think a 2x4 to the back of the head of Acura at this point would be subtle enough. It took a decade for Acura to get the message about the beak. I doubt they even removed the beak due to the incredibly bad sales or the chorus of journalists and acura enthusiasts telling them to dump it - I'm guessing they decided THEY wanted something new. I wouldn't assume they exactly are running any new ideas up the flagpole as their responses are slower than a government bureaucracy.
01-10-2017, 09:23 PM
#12
The OP posted a very comprehensive and thoughtful post, to which I'd like to express my thanks.
Those who've truly had reliability issues deserve a pass for any venting with regard to their negative experiences. I feelh very bummed out for them. Not every product is quality personified and Honda is no exception.
Those folks aside, I suspect the issue is more to do with managing expectations. Aside from first and second generation offerings, Acura sedans (mainly the TL) were never that far from their Accord cousin in terms of powertrain. And this seems to be a formula that Honda is sticking with through the TLX. To wit, Honda is unlikely to build an IS/Q50 counterpart anytime soon.
For most, the TLX is a capable sedan with respectable performance, nice features, attractive styling and good build quality. That was all I expected when I got mine and that's what I got. Thus far, no regrets.
Those who've truly had reliability issues deserve a pass for any venting with regard to their negative experiences. I feelh very bummed out for them. Not every product is quality personified and Honda is no exception.
Those folks aside, I suspect the issue is more to do with managing expectations. Aside from first and second generation offerings, Acura sedans (mainly the TL) were never that far from their Accord cousin in terms of powertrain. And this seems to be a formula that Honda is sticking with through the TLX. To wit, Honda is unlikely to build an IS/Q50 counterpart anytime soon.
For most, the TLX is a capable sedan with respectable performance, nice features, attractive styling and good build quality. That was all I expected when I got mine and that's what I got. Thus far, no regrets.
I don't feel a RWD platform is necessary because in truth the SH-AWD system fills the gap left over by going with FWD architecture. But I feel it would help Acura tremendously to implement some form of rotary knob or multi-settings buttons (like they do in MANY other makes) that allows people to drive with the full 70% pushing to the rear all the time (this would require beffing up the rear AWD clutches or switching to a differential) and speaking of which I applaud Acura for getting out the second generation SH-AWD in 2016.
Powertrain wise, the 2017 Toyota camry has a 3.5l V6 putting out 295(3?)hp and yes it is a 15(3?)hp increase so nothing to lose sleep over, but the fact is the TLX should have more power than the camry by a large enough margin that even though the TLX is a few years behind, it still comes out ahead now if that makes sense. I think we need to give Acura one more chance with the next generation of vehicles and let's see what they do. I am willing to bet we will be pleasantly surprised when they drop the 10 speed in and take out the ZF9 (assuming it is better) and I am going to bet they are going to drop in an engine that will thoroughly satisfy all of our qualms. Just look at all the massive changes they are doing with the Honda lineup, I have hated the civic/Accord/CRV with a passion, but I LOVE the latest gen. Now on that same token, Honda needs to get over the J35 already and realize that SOHC V6's are early early 1990's tech. In the last 6-ish years Ford has come out with a 1.5,1.6,2.0,2.7,3.3,3.5(with different generations) of ecoboost engines while Honda is still using what is essentially the same architecture V6 from the early 2000's. It gets the job done while delivering awesome MPG..but it's time to crank up the volume.
The infotainment has been a weak spot for a very long time, my 2007 X5 had a MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer display than my 2007 MDX but I think this 2 screen setup is very classy with so much potential and if they can work out all the little kinks, it will be very sick. Just look at how far myfordsync has come compared to what it was.
If Honda wants to make Acura their luxury-Lexus like lineup, then go for it, but go all in. Use things like real wood on all vehicles, cut down on wind noise on all your vehicles, make it a bank vault on wheels. Use napa/Milano leather in the top trims of all your cars (Kia does this on the Optima and Sorento, as well as Cadenza and K900). Stop showing your cars on a race track while offering them without true sport trims, not stick and paste aero kits that serve no function.
Phew been holding that on my chest for a little while now. Lmao yes I have done my fair share of voicing displeasure on these boards, but this is the first time I get to post how I really really feel all the way.
The following 4 users liked this post by RDX10:
01-10-2017, 09:42 PM
#13
Team Owner
Well said Maple.
Sorry, I'll break with my rule of going to far astray from the TLX, but it remains to be seen how well the idea of a 40-52k (the price range being quoted) Kia actually turns into sales. Its way too early to say how good of a plan /strategy this vehicle will be in the long run.
Sorry, I'll break with my rule of going to far astray from the TLX, but it remains to be seen how well the idea of a 40-52k (the price range being quoted) Kia actually turns into sales. Its way too early to say how good of a plan /strategy this vehicle will be in the long run.
I don't think the price is that crazy, considering what you get. But then again, I've owned a turbo Hyundai for 6 years and 140,000km now, and have had a great ownership experience. I can't imagine this car being any different, reliability wise (though admittedly, I'd still wait for at least the second production year, to work out or be aware of early bugs). Yeah, it is higher than most are willing to spend on a Kia, but Kia also has the K900, or whatever it's called, and it costs even more than the Stinger GT likely will. Im sure they have a good idea on what to expect. At least I hope
Hey, you started the thread derail!!
01-10-2017, 10:38 PM
#14
Senior Moderator
I said 10 Hail Mary's for the derail...
You're absolutely right, the K900 costs even more than the Stinger..... Seemed to be a decent car to boot, but your point would have more impact if they actually sold any. Seems like it was way more than a vast majority were willing to spend on a Kia. I've never even seen one on the road, and even the RLX outsells it.
You're absolutely right, the K900 costs even more than the Stinger..... Seemed to be a decent car to boot, but your point would have more impact if they actually sold any. Seems like it was way more than a vast majority were willing to spend on a Kia. I've never even seen one on the road, and even the RLX outsells it.
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TacoBello (01-10-2017)
01-10-2017, 10:45 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
But IMHO that is the issue that a lot of people have with the TLX (and to a lesser extent the ILX). I won't sit here and say that the Accord and TLX are equivalent, I don't feel they are, but I will say that they are not differentiated enough. Aesthetics wise, the Accord is pretty damn good looking and from some angles is nicer than the TLX but the TLX also looks really good (I prefer the TLX) but I feel that the TLX should look better from all angles if that makes sense. I applaud Acura for coming up with P-AWS for FWD TLX's and not just simply sticking to FWD like they did with past FWD TL's so there is some differentiation there.
I don't feel a RWD platform is necessary because in truth the SH-AWD system fills the gap left over by going with FWD architecture. But I feel it would help Acura tremendously to implement some form of rotary knob or multi-settings buttons (like they do in MANY other makes) that allows people to drive with the full 70% pushing to the rear all the time (this would require beffing up the rear AWD clutches or switching to a differential) and speaking of which I applaud Acura for getting out the second generation SH-AWD in 2016.
Powertrain wise, the 2017 Toyota camry has a 3.5l V6 putting out 295(3?)hp and yes it is a 15(3?)hp increase so nothing to lose sleep over, but the fact is the TLX should have more power than the camry by a large enough margin that even though the TLX is a few years behind, it still comes out ahead now if that makes sense. I think we need to give Acura one more chance with the next generation of vehicles and let's see what they do. I am willing to bet we will be pleasantly surprised when they drop the 10 speed in and take out the ZF9 (assuming it is better) and I am going to bet they are going to drop in an engine that will thoroughly satisfy all of our qualms. Just look at all the massive changes they are doing with the Honda lineup, I have hated the civic/Accord/CRV with a passion, but I LOVE the latest gen. Now on that same token, Honda needs to get over the J35 already and realize that SOHC V6's are early early 1990's tech. In the last 6-ish years Ford has come out with a 1.5,1.6,2.0,2.7,3.3,3.5(with different generations) of ecoboost engines while Honda is still using what is essentially the same architecture V6 from the early 2000's. It gets the job done while delivering awesome MPG..but it's time to crank up the volume.
The infotainment has been a weak spot for a very long time, my 2007 X5 had a MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer display than my 2007 MDX but I think this 2 screen setup is very classy with so much potential and if they can work out all the little kinks, it will be very sick. Just look at how far myfordsync has come compared to what it was.
If Honda wants to make Acura their luxury-Lexus like lineup, then go for it, but go all in. Use things like real wood on all vehicles, cut down on wind noise on all your vehicles, make it a bank vault on wheels. Use napa/Milano leather in the top trims of all your cars (Kia does this on the Optima and Sorento, as well as Cadenza and K900). Stop showing your cars on a race track while offering them without true sport trims, not stick and paste aero kits that serve no function.
Phew been holding that on my chest for a little while now. Lmao yes I have done my fair share of voicing displeasure on these boards, but this is the first time I get to post how I really really feel all the way.
I don't feel a RWD platform is necessary because in truth the SH-AWD system fills the gap left over by going with FWD architecture. But I feel it would help Acura tremendously to implement some form of rotary knob or multi-settings buttons (like they do in MANY other makes) that allows people to drive with the full 70% pushing to the rear all the time (this would require beffing up the rear AWD clutches or switching to a differential) and speaking of which I applaud Acura for getting out the second generation SH-AWD in 2016.
Powertrain wise, the 2017 Toyota camry has a 3.5l V6 putting out 295(3?)hp and yes it is a 15(3?)hp increase so nothing to lose sleep over, but the fact is the TLX should have more power than the camry by a large enough margin that even though the TLX is a few years behind, it still comes out ahead now if that makes sense. I think we need to give Acura one more chance with the next generation of vehicles and let's see what they do. I am willing to bet we will be pleasantly surprised when they drop the 10 speed in and take out the ZF9 (assuming it is better) and I am going to bet they are going to drop in an engine that will thoroughly satisfy all of our qualms. Just look at all the massive changes they are doing with the Honda lineup, I have hated the civic/Accord/CRV with a passion, but I LOVE the latest gen. Now on that same token, Honda needs to get over the J35 already and realize that SOHC V6's are early early 1990's tech. In the last 6-ish years Ford has come out with a 1.5,1.6,2.0,2.7,3.3,3.5(with different generations) of ecoboost engines while Honda is still using what is essentially the same architecture V6 from the early 2000's. It gets the job done while delivering awesome MPG..but it's time to crank up the volume.
The infotainment has been a weak spot for a very long time, my 2007 X5 had a MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer display than my 2007 MDX but I think this 2 screen setup is very classy with so much potential and if they can work out all the little kinks, it will be very sick. Just look at how far myfordsync has come compared to what it was.
If Honda wants to make Acura their luxury-Lexus like lineup, then go for it, but go all in. Use things like real wood on all vehicles, cut down on wind noise on all your vehicles, make it a bank vault on wheels. Use napa/Milano leather in the top trims of all your cars (Kia does this on the Optima and Sorento, as well as Cadenza and K900). Stop showing your cars on a race track while offering them without true sport trims, not stick and paste aero kits that serve no function.
Phew been holding that on my chest for a little while now. Lmao yes I have done my fair share of voicing displeasure on these boards, but this is the first time I get to post how I really really feel all the way.
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blakura (01-15-2017)
01-11-2017, 05:37 AM
#16
01-11-2017, 10:59 AM
#17
Burning Brakes
Acura evokes mixed feelings from me. I want them to succeed, but sometimes, their behavior and products are just maddening. The drop in ratings from Consumer Reports *and* at the reliability reports at TrueDelta (a smaller independent outfit) are disappointing and make me sad.
For owners of the ILX, TLX, and RLX -- do those cars make you feel special? As if the car was built just for you? They don't speak to me, but my TSX Wagon does. Few see this, but in many ways, the TSX Wagon is the first gen 5 door Integra, but all grown up and refined.
Similarly, my modest 2010 Mazda3 speaks to me as well. At the time, the Mazda3 was described as a baby BMW, as long as you stay off the autobahn.
Meaning, at high speeds, the Mazda3 can't compare. But at normal speeds and especially in the curves, it can almost keep up. For me, the Mazda3 can be argued as the unofficial successor to the Integra. The ILX has no such standing.
Acura needs to fix their hardware issues. But they also need to address the intangibles. I've said it before and it's worth repeating: love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin, so Acura bashing isn't necessarily a bad thing. We care. Indifference, however, can be deadly.
For owners of the ILX, TLX, and RLX -- do those cars make you feel special? As if the car was built just for you? They don't speak to me, but my TSX Wagon does. Few see this, but in many ways, the TSX Wagon is the first gen 5 door Integra, but all grown up and refined.
Similarly, my modest 2010 Mazda3 speaks to me as well. At the time, the Mazda3 was described as a baby BMW, as long as you stay off the autobahn.
Meaning, at high speeds, the Mazda3 can't compare. But at normal speeds and especially in the curves, it can almost keep up. For me, the Mazda3 can be argued as the unofficial successor to the Integra. The ILX has no such standing.Acura needs to fix their hardware issues. But they also need to address the intangibles. I've said it before and it's worth repeating: love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin, so Acura bashing isn't necessarily a bad thing. We care. Indifference, however, can be deadly.
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01-11-2017, 12:38 PM
#18
First off, thanks for the excellent post. With that said, one excerpt stands out above the rest as to why all the complaining exists...
What if I told you that there was a time when Acura's tech was better than Audis, made more power than non-M BMWs with even needing a turbo, and looked better than Hondas, AND STILL cost less money. I can't speak for the rest, but that's the era of Acura that made me a believer.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
The power is what it is. I don't need a rocket for my DD, (obviously, my DD is a 4 banger TSX), but where's the progress? How many J series V6s are we going to go through? Where's the big advantage over the accord? 12hp? Give most tuners 6 extra octane to play with and they'll give you 12 crank hp pretty easily. Acura, You had 260 in 2002. You have 290 in 2017? Whatcha been doing? The 02 Accord V6 had 200hp. The 17 Accord has 278. The four banger? 206/182? Lexus is guilty of the same thing. I cannot in good faith consider an IS350 just because it's not actually fast by 2016 standards and it gets horrible mileage by 2016 standards. In 2006? Oh yeah, that motor had clout, but the world passes you buy if you rest on your laurels for 10 years. Everyone else pumps out new motors just to up the ante over and over again. Infiniti already had their japanese rivals beat in terms of power, but it was old and people didn't like the way it sounded, so they bring in one engine that's faster than the TLX, and another one that's way faster. BMW's trotted out 3 completely different I6 turbo motors in since 2007 that all were leaders of their class. Audi just changed their 2008-introduced "faster than any non M and AMG" supercharged V6 for turbo V6. So it's not that the TLX is legitimately slow, it's just that it looks like everyone else is actively trying to get better and better and better and Acura isn't even interested. There was a time when you could walk onto a mercedes, lexus, bmw, infiniti, acura, audi, and honda lot and say "okay, who has the most powerful V6" and Acura could say "We do."
In some sort of way, I guess I feel like one of those parents watching their child get Cs when they know they're capable of As. There's nothing actually wrong with being average, but I know they're capable of better because I witnessed it first hand. Navigation, a killer radio with a 6 disc in dash changer, and 260hp from a naturally aspirated 3.2 liter... purchased in november of 2001. I just can't pretend to be satisfied or even accepting of their progress in the last 15 years.
What if I told you that there was a time when Acura's tech was better than Audis, made more power than non-M BMWs with even needing a turbo, and looked better than Hondas, AND STILL cost less money. I can't speak for the rest, but that's the era of Acura that made me a believer.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
The power is what it is. I don't need a rocket for my DD, (obviously, my DD is a 4 banger TSX), but where's the progress? How many J series V6s are we going to go through? Where's the big advantage over the accord? 12hp? Give most tuners 6 extra octane to play with and they'll give you 12 crank hp pretty easily. Acura, You had 260 in 2002. You have 290 in 2017? Whatcha been doing? The 02 Accord V6 had 200hp. The 17 Accord has 278. The four banger? 206/182? Lexus is guilty of the same thing. I cannot in good faith consider an IS350 just because it's not actually fast by 2016 standards and it gets horrible mileage by 2016 standards. In 2006? Oh yeah, that motor had clout, but the world passes you buy if you rest on your laurels for 10 years. Everyone else pumps out new motors just to up the ante over and over again. Infiniti already had their japanese rivals beat in terms of power, but it was old and people didn't like the way it sounded, so they bring in one engine that's faster than the TLX, and another one that's way faster. BMW's trotted out 3 completely different I6 turbo motors in since 2007 that all were leaders of their class. Audi just changed their 2008-introduced "faster than any non M and AMG" supercharged V6 for turbo V6. So it's not that the TLX is legitimately slow, it's just that it looks like everyone else is actively trying to get better and better and better and Acura isn't even interested. There was a time when you could walk onto a mercedes, lexus, bmw, infiniti, acura, audi, and honda lot and say "okay, who has the most powerful V6" and Acura could say "We do."
In some sort of way, I guess I feel like one of those parents watching their child get Cs when they know they're capable of As. There's nothing actually wrong with being average, but I know they're capable of better because I witnessed it first hand. Navigation, a killer radio with a 6 disc in dash changer, and 260hp from a naturally aspirated 3.2 liter... purchased in november of 2001. I just can't pretend to be satisfied or even accepting of their progress in the last 15 years.
01-11-2017, 01:00 PM
#19
First off, thanks for the excellent post. With that said, one excerpt stands out above the rest as to why all the complaining exists...
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
.
It seems like the best course of action for interior/dashboard tech is to just offer a system that will mirror/sync with the driver's cell phone, like CarPlay and Android Auto. That will relieve the manufacturers from having to keep up with proprietary software/other third party software that is not up to par. The phone determines the extent of the features, not the car.
From a performance standpoint, everyone has an opinion, but you would think that a nicely-styled AWD sedan that made about mid 300s hp & torque with selectable comfort/true performance suspension, good gas mileage and typical Honda reliability for $35k-$40k would crap all over the rest of the competition. Not sure what is holding them back from creating such a beast that is well within their wheelhouse.
01-11-2017, 06:58 PM
#21
Suzuka Master
Well said Maple.
Sorry, I'll break with my rule of going to far astray from the TLX, but it remains to be seen how well the idea of a 40-52k (the price range being quoted) Kia actually turns into sales. Its way too early to say how good of a plan /strategy this vehicle will be in the long run.
Sorry, I'll break with my rule of going to far astray from the TLX, but it remains to be seen how well the idea of a 40-52k (the price range being quoted) Kia actually turns into sales. Its way too early to say how good of a plan /strategy this vehicle will be in the long run.
01-11-2017, 07:18 PM
#22
even at that price point it already has people talking and showing interest. And honestly if the thing turbo AWD is $50K I would take it over a TLX SH-AWD Advance any day. The big thing Hyundai/Kia has been struggling with is suspension tuning. If they can get suspension good and then start using more composites to get weight down they will have some great cars. Also name me a mainstream Asian brand bringing sporty RWD sedans to market. Great game changer, curious to drive one. May go this router over an A4. Interested in G80 Sport, but concerned how the suspension dynamic with be with all the weight the G80 has.
This is likely based on the G80 platform but probably won't be as nice inside (the G80 is VERY inpressive inside) so expect it to be within a few hundred pounds, maybe even 200-300lb's less.
01-12-2017, 01:34 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
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But IMHO that is the issue that a lot of people have with the TLX (and to a lesser extent the ILX). I won't sit here and say that the Accord and TLX are equivalent, I don't feel they are, but I will say that they are not differentiated enough. Aesthetics wise, the Accord is pretty damn good looking and from some angles is nicer than the TLX but the TLX also looks really good (I prefer the TLX) but I feel that the TLX should look better from all angles if that makes sense. I applaud Acura for coming up with P-AWS for FWD TLX's and not just simply sticking to FWD like they did with past FWD TL's so there is some differentiation there.
I don't feel a RWD platform is necessary because in truth the SH-AWD system fills the gap left over by going with FWD architecture. But I feel it would help Acura tremendously to implement some form of rotary knob or multi-settings buttons (like they do in MANY other makes) that allows people to drive with the full 70% pushing to the rear all the time (this would require beffing up the rear AWD clutches or switching to a differential) and speaking of which I applaud Acura for getting out the second generation SH-AWD in 2016.
Powertrain wise, the 2017 Toyota camry has a 3.5l V6 putting out 295(3?)hp and yes it is a 15(3?)hp increase so nothing to lose sleep over, but the fact is the TLX should have more power than the camry by a large enough margin that even though the TLX is a few years behind, it still comes out ahead now if that makes sense. I think we need to give Acura one more chance with the next generation of vehicles and let's see what they do. I am willing to bet we will be pleasantly surprised when they drop the 10 speed in and take out the ZF9 (assuming it is better) and I am going to bet they are going to drop in an engine that will thoroughly satisfy all of our qualms. Just look at all the massive changes they are doing with the Honda lineup, I have hated the civic/Accord/CRV with a passion, but I LOVE the latest gen. Now on that same token, Honda needs to get over the J35 already and realize that SOHC V6's are early early 1990's tech. In the last 6-ish years Ford has come out with a 1.5,1.6,2.0,2.7,3.3,3.5(with different generations) of ecoboost engines while Honda is still using what is essentially the same architecture V6 from the early 2000's. It gets the job done while delivering awesome MPG..but it's time to crank up the volume.
The infotainment has been a weak spot for a very long time, my 2007 X5 had a MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer display than my 2007 MDX but I think this 2 screen setup is very classy with so much potential and if they can work out all the little kinks, it will be very sick. Just look at how far myfordsync has come compared to what it was.
If Honda wants to make Acura their luxury-Lexus like lineup, then go for it, but go all in. Use things like real wood on all vehicles, cut down on wind noise on all your vehicles, make it a bank vault on wheels. Use napa/Milano leather in the top trims of all your cars (Kia does this on the Optima and Sorento, as well as Cadenza and K900). Stop showing your cars on a race track while offering them without true sport trims, not stick and paste aero kits that serve no function.
Phew been holding that on my chest for a little while now. Lmao yes I have done my fair share of voicing displeasure on these boards, but this is the first time I get to post how I really really feel all the way.
I don't feel a RWD platform is necessary because in truth the SH-AWD system fills the gap left over by going with FWD architecture. But I feel it would help Acura tremendously to implement some form of rotary knob or multi-settings buttons (like they do in MANY other makes) that allows people to drive with the full 70% pushing to the rear all the time (this would require beffing up the rear AWD clutches or switching to a differential) and speaking of which I applaud Acura for getting out the second generation SH-AWD in 2016.
Powertrain wise, the 2017 Toyota camry has a 3.5l V6 putting out 295(3?)hp and yes it is a 15(3?)hp increase so nothing to lose sleep over, but the fact is the TLX should have more power than the camry by a large enough margin that even though the TLX is a few years behind, it still comes out ahead now if that makes sense. I think we need to give Acura one more chance with the next generation of vehicles and let's see what they do. I am willing to bet we will be pleasantly surprised when they drop the 10 speed in and take out the ZF9 (assuming it is better) and I am going to bet they are going to drop in an engine that will thoroughly satisfy all of our qualms. Just look at all the massive changes they are doing with the Honda lineup, I have hated the civic/Accord/CRV with a passion, but I LOVE the latest gen. Now on that same token, Honda needs to get over the J35 already and realize that SOHC V6's are early early 1990's tech. In the last 6-ish years Ford has come out with a 1.5,1.6,2.0,2.7,3.3,3.5(with different generations) of ecoboost engines while Honda is still using what is essentially the same architecture V6 from the early 2000's. It gets the job done while delivering awesome MPG..but it's time to crank up the volume.
The infotainment has been a weak spot for a very long time, my 2007 X5 had a MUCH MUCH MUCH nicer display than my 2007 MDX but I think this 2 screen setup is very classy with so much potential and if they can work out all the little kinks, it will be very sick. Just look at how far myfordsync has come compared to what it was.
If Honda wants to make Acura their luxury-Lexus like lineup, then go for it, but go all in. Use things like real wood on all vehicles, cut down on wind noise on all your vehicles, make it a bank vault on wheels. Use napa/Milano leather in the top trims of all your cars (Kia does this on the Optima and Sorento, as well as Cadenza and K900). Stop showing your cars on a race track while offering them without true sport trims, not stick and paste aero kits that serve no function.
Phew been holding that on my chest for a little while now. Lmao yes I have done my fair share of voicing displeasure on these boards, but this is the first time I get to post how I really really feel all the way.
01-12-2017, 10:37 AM
#24
Suzuka Master
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With the former BMW "M" series development head over there can't imagine a good suspension package not coming out of the new product lines as they are developed. The also have the Audi guy who developed the Lambo Huracan for styling.
Plenty of money as one of the 5 largest auto companies in the world. They are also a sub of one of the worlds biggest heavy industrial corporations.
Plenty of money as one of the 5 largest auto companies in the world. They are also a sub of one of the worlds biggest heavy industrial corporations.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-12-2017 at 10:46 AM.
01-12-2017, 10:41 AM
#25
And yes, I know the money is in the mainstream, but enthusiasts have influence over their car-buying friends, so making versions that appeal to enthusiasts is good business. BMW's M-cars, for example, keep the enthusiasts on board and cast their glow throughout the BMW lineup.
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blakura (01-15-2017)
01-12-2017, 10:50 AM
#26
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Think that's a key point, they have no aspirational cars. The NSX is a nice super type car but there is nothing in their lineup for a guy with a good paycheck to buy.
01-12-2017, 11:21 AM
#27
Acura used to have cars that were attractive, refined, and performed nicely. People young and old had a passion for them. I think of the Integra, RSX, 1st Gen RL, 2nd gen TL, 1st gen NSX, and don't forget the Vigor. All of these cars were considered better than their Honda counterpart and offered similar interiors to the Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus of that day along with above average reliability. They also had the Type S level trim that enthusiasts really seemed to appreciate. I always wanted a 3rd Gen TL type S and still think its a great looking vehicle to this day.
I know its subjective but I am not a complete fan of anything they have come out with since then except the 2nd gen NSX but I don't see how Ill ever be able to own one of those. 2ng Gen RL looked good in the front but not so much in the back. The 2nd gen TSX I thought looked great in the rear and while I am used to the front now I cant really argue it is handsome looking. ILX equals WTF. The MDX gets uglier with each generation, 4th gen TL was blecht, and the RLX is so vanilla now. The TLX I thought was a step in the right direction for a TL replacement. It is good looking front and rear and even more so with the body kit, the interior is upscale, but the crappy slow shifting auto as the only tranny was a deal breaker on the 2015 I test drove. I'll keep my TSX till it dies as it has given me 7 solid years of trouble free operation. So while Acura continues to be fairly reliable the performance is no longer above average and attractive sheet metal has disappeared which then just makes it another Honda in my book.
Ill come back happily once they produce a competitive 4 door sports sedan.
I know its subjective but I am not a complete fan of anything they have come out with since then except the 2nd gen NSX but I don't see how Ill ever be able to own one of those. 2ng Gen RL looked good in the front but not so much in the back. The 2nd gen TSX I thought looked great in the rear and while I am used to the front now I cant really argue it is handsome looking. ILX equals WTF. The MDX gets uglier with each generation, 4th gen TL was blecht, and the RLX is so vanilla now. The TLX I thought was a step in the right direction for a TL replacement. It is good looking front and rear and even more so with the body kit, the interior is upscale, but the crappy slow shifting auto as the only tranny was a deal breaker on the 2015 I test drove. I'll keep my TSX till it dies as it has given me 7 solid years of trouble free operation. So while Acura continues to be fairly reliable the performance is no longer above average and attractive sheet metal has disappeared which then just makes it another Honda in my book.
Ill come back happily once they produce a competitive 4 door sports sedan.
01-12-2017, 03:27 PM
#28
What you stated is indicative of BBS/forums in general. (Same can be said about Yelp, etc.) Most people that post may have something to praise, but find something to gripe about. I can see how gripes can be more interesting to read about, but many come from people that are dissatisfied or negative in general. Obviously, the vast majority of owners don't belong to forums or find the need (or desire) to comment at all. So, take the complaints with a grain of salt.
The gripe I have seen the most is people saying their fed up with the TLX and moving on to the Audi A4 because it's so much better. "Better" is subjective, but they don't really compete as far as price. I primarily purchased my TLX because it was pretty good technology/performance/safety for the price. Honestly, it's hard to beat in this entry level luxury segment. The A4 is a nice car, but it's also +10k more expensive comparably equipped. I would rather save my money (ex upgrade my house) than spend more on car that somewhat similar. Everyone has their priorities, and I believe the majority of Acura owners are somewhat value minded than other high line brand owners.
The gripe I have seen the most is people saying their fed up with the TLX and moving on to the Audi A4 because it's so much better. "Better" is subjective, but they don't really compete as far as price. I primarily purchased my TLX because it was pretty good technology/performance/safety for the price. Honestly, it's hard to beat in this entry level luxury segment. The A4 is a nice car, but it's also +10k more expensive comparably equipped. I would rather save my money (ex upgrade my house) than spend more on car that somewhat similar. Everyone has their priorities, and I believe the majority of Acura owners are somewhat value minded than other high line brand owners.
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01-12-2017, 03:58 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
The gripe I have seen the most is people saying their fed up with the TLX and moving on to the Audi A4 because it's so much better. "Better" is subjective, but they don't really compete as far as price. I primarily purchased my TLX because it was pretty good technology/performance/safety for the price. Honestly, it's hard to beat in this entry level luxury segment. The A4 is a nice car, but it's also +10k more expensive comparably equipped. I would rather save my money (ex upgrade my house) than spend more on car that somewhat similar. Everyone has their priorities, and I believe the majority of Acura owners are somewhat value minded than other high line brand owners.
My comment was not an attack at you at all, I fully understand you comment about bang for the buck and price difference. But for the people that have the means, there are better things out there.
01-12-2017, 10:53 PM
#31
Suzuka Master
Join Date: Sep 2006
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What you stated is indicative of BBS/forums in general. (Same can be said about Yelp, etc.) Most people that post may have something to praise, but find something to gripe about. I can see how gripes can be more interesting to read about, but many come from people that are dissatisfied or negative in general. Obviously, the vast majority of owners don't belong to forums or find the need (or desire) to comment at all. So, take the complaints with a grain of salt.
The gripe I have seen the most is people saying their fed up with the TLX and moving on to the Audi A4 because it's so much better. "Better" is subjective, but they don't really compete as far as price. I primarily purchased my TLX because it was pretty good technology/performance/safety for the price. Honestly, it's hard to beat in this entry level luxury segment. The A4 is a nice car, but it's also +10k more expensive comparably equipped. I would rather save my money (ex upgrade my house) than spend more on car that somewhat similar. Everyone has their priorities, and I believe the majority of Acura owners are somewhat value minded than other high line brand owners.
The gripe I have seen the most is people saying their fed up with the TLX and moving on to the Audi A4 because it's so much better. "Better" is subjective, but they don't really compete as far as price. I primarily purchased my TLX because it was pretty good technology/performance/safety for the price. Honestly, it's hard to beat in this entry level luxury segment. The A4 is a nice car, but it's also +10k more expensive comparably equipped. I would rather save my money (ex upgrade my house) than spend more on car that somewhat similar. Everyone has their priorities, and I believe the majority of Acura owners are somewhat value minded than other high line brand owners.
On bang for the buck. There was a time when a TL would out preform most if not all of the usual suspects. Top end TL’s could be bought for a low end $30K price. My TL 6MT Summer Tire went out the door for around $31K. It was also the sales leader in the segment by 40%?.The ‘06 TL which IMHO was a nice looking car ran just off the pace of my 330 6MT “ZHP” convertible which was the “IS” version in its day & cost around $45K.
The TL was definitely quicker that a standard 330 which had less power than the ZHP.Todays TLX while holding a low $30K price with an I4 engine is less featured & slower than a Honda Accord with the same price tag. I think they have lost a lot of the bang for the buck against the lower priced entries from luxury car makers. What the V6 can makeup in performance it also pushes the $40K mark to do it.
The range of cars Honda considers just below the TLX is pushing a lot of very nice entries into the market which will further diminish the Bang for the Buck effect. Acura is going to have to build its way out, with better products, if it ever wants to be a major player in the segment that it was. They were among the missing at the Detroit Auto Show one of the big three auto expositions (NYC, LA) in the USA.
Agree that in some cases the Audi’s ETC can be much more expensive than the TLX but by the same token people who bough an Acura as an entry level car might now have more to spend through professional growth.
Acura is having a hard time retaining them.Its easy to put a bell shaped curve over the TL buyer. At the far left you have the ones who have increased income enough to move on up. The middle of the curve are the bulk of the buyers comfortable with the TLX pricing. The far right side of the curve are people who could just manage & stretched to buy the TLX.
The premium cars have a curve just above whose right end is someplace in the middle of the TLX curve. This means a good chunk of existing TLX buyers could elect to move on. They will also be challenged by cars who's curve matches theirs like Buick & VW.
The TL was definitely quicker that a standard 330 which had less power than the ZHP.Todays TLX while holding a low $30K price with an I4 engine is less featured & slower than a Honda Accord with the same price tag. I think they have lost a lot of the bang for the buck against the lower priced entries from luxury car makers. What the V6 can makeup in performance it also pushes the $40K mark to do it.
The range of cars Honda considers just below the TLX is pushing a lot of very nice entries into the market which will further diminish the Bang for the Buck effect. Acura is going to have to build its way out, with better products, if it ever wants to be a major player in the segment that it was. They were among the missing at the Detroit Auto Show one of the big three auto expositions (NYC, LA) in the USA.
Agree that in some cases the Audi’s ETC can be much more expensive than the TLX but by the same token people who bough an Acura as an entry level car might now have more to spend through professional growth.
Acura is having a hard time retaining them.Its easy to put a bell shaped curve over the TL buyer. At the far left you have the ones who have increased income enough to move on up. The middle of the curve are the bulk of the buyers comfortable with the TLX pricing. The far right side of the curve are people who could just manage & stretched to buy the TLX.
The premium cars have a curve just above whose right end is someplace in the middle of the TLX curve. This means a good chunk of existing TLX buyers could elect to move on. They will also be challenged by cars who's curve matches theirs like Buick & VW.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 01-12-2017 at 10:55 PM.
01-13-2017, 12:09 AM
#32
It's ok, everyone forgets about the 370Z (wink at Adam here) hahha.
01-13-2017, 06:11 AM
#33
Moderator
Thanks for a well thought out post Maple!
Personally - I got what I paid for with my TLX. I had a 13 Accord EXL and felt the TLX was a step up in several ways that were/are important to me. It rides much better, is quieter, and has a more premium feel. I also like the interior better (just a tad smaller - more cockpit like) and like the little things (side mirror lowers when you back up - soft lights on the door handles and in storage compartments, car beeps at you when filling tire with air and it's at the correct level etc etc) that the Accord didn't have. I also like the LKAS (in 14 when the TLX was new this was a feature that wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today) and while it's not a Sports Sedan - it is, without doubt, sporty-er than the CVT Accord I traded in. I also think it looks better. So count me as a happy Acura customer. The flaws have been well documented but for me they don't detract from the things I like about the car.
Frankly I could have bought a car that cost twice as much with no financial strain but I'm very conservative by nature and live well within my means with retirement only a decade away. The Acura fits the bill for me - it's a super nice Accord IMO.
Personally - I got what I paid for with my TLX. I had a 13 Accord EXL and felt the TLX was a step up in several ways that were/are important to me. It rides much better, is quieter, and has a more premium feel. I also like the interior better (just a tad smaller - more cockpit like) and like the little things (side mirror lowers when you back up - soft lights on the door handles and in storage compartments, car beeps at you when filling tire with air and it's at the correct level etc etc) that the Accord didn't have. I also like the LKAS (in 14 when the TLX was new this was a feature that wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today) and while it's not a Sports Sedan - it is, without doubt, sporty-er than the CVT Accord I traded in. I also think it looks better. So count me as a happy Acura customer. The flaws have been well documented but for me they don't detract from the things I like about the car.
Frankly I could have bought a car that cost twice as much with no financial strain but I'm very conservative by nature and live well within my means with retirement only a decade away. The Acura fits the bill for me - it's a super nice Accord IMO.
01-13-2017, 06:54 AM
#34
I have owned Honda/Acura brand most of my life. I am a Honda guy and always will be. I have had Lincoln, Ford, BMW, Cadillac and Audi. Acura's problem is they do not listen to their customers. Putting a 8 or 9 speed transmission with the basically same J series engine they have had for over a decade just does not cut it for most consumers. BMW 535's are twin turbo and have a AWD option. Audi has twin turbo and AWD. This is what most companies are going to, turbo and AWD. But Acura sticks their nose up give people a old tech that is revamp'd. On the Honda side we see Honda answered what their customers wanted, a new look and turbo motors. Even their Tech has made a leap. I have a RLX and a RSX. The TLX isn't very eye appealing for most people. They need to do what Honda did, listen and give what the consumer wants.
01-13-2017, 08:56 AM
#35
Senior Moderator
Thanks for a well thought out post Maple!
Personally - I got what I paid for with my TLX. I had a 13 Accord EXL and felt the TLX was a step up in several ways that were/are important to me. It rides much better, is quieter, and has a more premium feel. I also like the interior better (just a tad smaller - more cockpit like) and like the little things (side mirror lowers when you back up - soft lights on the door handles and in storage compartments, car beeps at you when filling tire with air and it's at the correct level etc etc) that the Accord didn't have. I also like the LKAS (in 14 when the TLX was new this was a feature that wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today) and while it's not a Sports Sedan - it is, without doubt, sporty-er than the CVT Accord I traded in. I also think it looks better. So count me as a happy Acura customer. The flaws have been well documented but for me they don't detract from the things I like about the car.
Frankly I could have bought a car that cost twice as much with no financial strain but I'm very conservative by nature and live well within my means with retirement only a decade away. The Acura fits the bill for me - it's a super nice Accord IMO.
Personally - I got what I paid for with my TLX. I had a 13 Accord EXL and felt the TLX was a step up in several ways that were/are important to me. It rides much better, is quieter, and has a more premium feel. I also like the interior better (just a tad smaller - more cockpit like) and like the little things (side mirror lowers when you back up - soft lights on the door handles and in storage compartments, car beeps at you when filling tire with air and it's at the correct level etc etc) that the Accord didn't have. I also like the LKAS (in 14 when the TLX was new this was a feature that wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today) and while it's not a Sports Sedan - it is, without doubt, sporty-er than the CVT Accord I traded in. I also think it looks better. So count me as a happy Acura customer. The flaws have been well documented but for me they don't detract from the things I like about the car.
Frankly I could have bought a car that cost twice as much with no financial strain but I'm very conservative by nature and live well within my means with retirement only a decade away. The Acura fits the bill for me - it's a super nice Accord IMO.
01-13-2017, 12:59 PM
#36
CTSV,TL, Audi Q7 & A5SB
First off, thanks for the excellent post. With that said, one excerpt stands out above the rest as to why all the complaining exists...
What if I told you that there was a time when Acura's tech was better than Audis, made more power than non-M BMWs with even needing a turbo, and looked better than Hondas, AND STILL cost less money. I can't speak for the rest, but that's the era of Acura that made me a believer.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
The power is what it is. I don't need a rocket for my DD, (obviously, my DD is a 4 banger TSX), but where's the progress? How many J series V6s are we going to go through? Where's the big advantage over the accord? 12hp? Give most tuners 6 extra octane to play with and they'll give you 12 crank hp pretty easily. Acura, You had 260 in 2002. You have 290 in 2017? Whatcha been doing? The 02 Accord V6 had 200hp. The 17 Accord has 278. The four banger? 206/182? Lexus is guilty of the same thing. I cannot in good faith consider an IS350 just because it's not actually fast by 2016 standards and it gets horrible mileage by 2016 standards. In 2006? Oh yeah, that motor had clout, but the world passes you buy if you rest on your laurels for 10 years. Everyone else pumps out new motors just to up the ante over and over again. Infiniti already had their japanese rivals beat in terms of power, but it was old and people didn't like the way it sounded, so they bring in one engine that's faster than the TLX, and another one that's way faster. BMW's trotted out 3 completely different I6 turbo motors in since 2007 that all were leaders of their class. Audi just changed their 2008-introduced "faster than any non M and AMG" supercharged V6 for turbo V6. So it's not that the TLX is legitimately slow, it's just that it looks like everyone else is actively trying to get better and better and better and Acura isn't even interested. There was a time when you could walk onto a mercedes, lexus, bmw, infiniti, acura, audi, and honda lot and say "okay, who has the most powerful V6" and Acura could say "We do."
In some sort of way, I guess I feel like one of those parents watching their child get Cs when they know they're capable of As. There's nothing actually wrong with being average, but I know they're capable of better because I witnessed it first hand. Navigation, a killer radio with a 6 disc in dash changer, and 260hp from a naturally aspirated 3.2 liter... purchased in november of 2001. I just can't pretend to be satisfied or even accepting of their progress in the last 15 years.
What if I told you that there was a time when Acura's tech was better than Audis, made more power than non-M BMWs with even needing a turbo, and looked better than Hondas, AND STILL cost less money. I can't speak for the rest, but that's the era of Acura that made me a believer.
It's not like the TLX has inadequate tech. The graphics are obviously dated, it's inputs are slow, the touch screen input hasn't evolved much from my 02 TL and the knob input hasn't evolved much from my 05 RL. The only missing feature that actually bothers me is that it's still missing a usable live internet address search. If you look at the entire market, tech is everywhere. Unless you're doing something crazy like Audi's dash or autonomous driving, you're just adequate. I don't see how anyone can complain about Acura's tech outside the fact that the Accord gives you all of the same things for less money and you can get carplay/android auto on a civic ex.
The power is what it is. I don't need a rocket for my DD, (obviously, my DD is a 4 banger TSX), but where's the progress? How many J series V6s are we going to go through? Where's the big advantage over the accord? 12hp? Give most tuners 6 extra octane to play with and they'll give you 12 crank hp pretty easily. Acura, You had 260 in 2002. You have 290 in 2017? Whatcha been doing? The 02 Accord V6 had 200hp. The 17 Accord has 278. The four banger? 206/182? Lexus is guilty of the same thing. I cannot in good faith consider an IS350 just because it's not actually fast by 2016 standards and it gets horrible mileage by 2016 standards. In 2006? Oh yeah, that motor had clout, but the world passes you buy if you rest on your laurels for 10 years. Everyone else pumps out new motors just to up the ante over and over again. Infiniti already had their japanese rivals beat in terms of power, but it was old and people didn't like the way it sounded, so they bring in one engine that's faster than the TLX, and another one that's way faster. BMW's trotted out 3 completely different I6 turbo motors in since 2007 that all were leaders of their class. Audi just changed their 2008-introduced "faster than any non M and AMG" supercharged V6 for turbo V6. So it's not that the TLX is legitimately slow, it's just that it looks like everyone else is actively trying to get better and better and better and Acura isn't even interested. There was a time when you could walk onto a mercedes, lexus, bmw, infiniti, acura, audi, and honda lot and say "okay, who has the most powerful V6" and Acura could say "We do."
In some sort of way, I guess I feel like one of those parents watching their child get Cs when they know they're capable of As. There's nothing actually wrong with being average, but I know they're capable of better because I witnessed it first hand. Navigation, a killer radio with a 6 disc in dash changer, and 260hp from a naturally aspirated 3.2 liter... purchased in november of 2001. I just can't pretend to be satisfied or even accepting of their progress in the last 15 years.
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BEAR-AvHistory (01-13-2017)
01-13-2017, 03:26 PM
#37
Cruisin'
As much as I bash my 2015 TLX I am still a Honda fan. Having been in the car manufacturing business I typically avoid the first model year run of a product. My 2004 TL was great so I thought, "what the hell, let's go with the 2015 TLX". Yes, I'm pissed about the transmission, but on the whole, I know it's a car I can drive the poop out of and it will keep on going. I should have known better than to buy one in the fisrt year. The only other brand I trust for quality is Toyota and since they are the Japanese Buick I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot poll. I read on here recently that someone said the 9 speed in the MDX is fine. If that really is the case, then I will probably replace my Odyssey with one. I should note that I worked with and for the Japanese for many years. I remember being in Tochigi when the original NSX came out. Honda put one on display at a gas station that was near the R&D center where they built them. That was the first time I laid eyes on one. I never bought one (I bought the Italian competition from that era), but I always loved the NSX.
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mapleloaf (01-13-2017)
01-13-2017, 04:20 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
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Thanks for a well thought out post Maple!
Personally - I got what I paid for with my TLX. I had a 13 Accord EXL and felt the TLX was a step up in several ways that were/are important to me. It rides much better, is quieter, and has a more premium feel. I also like the interior better (just a tad smaller - more cockpit like) and like the little things (side mirror lowers when you back up - soft lights on the door handles and in storage compartments, car beeps at you when filling tire with air and it's at the correct level etc etc) that the Accord didn't have. I also like the LKAS (in 14 when the TLX was new this was a feature that wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today) and while it's not a Sports Sedan - it is, without doubt, sporty-er than the CVT Accord I traded in. I also think it looks better. So count me as a happy Acura customer. The flaws have been well documented but for me they don't detract from the things I like about the car.
Frankly I could have bought a car that cost twice as much with no financial strain but I'm very conservative by nature and live well within my means with retirement only a decade away. The Acura fits the bill for me - it's a super nice Accord IMO.
Personally - I got what I paid for with my TLX. I had a 13 Accord EXL and felt the TLX was a step up in several ways that were/are important to me. It rides much better, is quieter, and has a more premium feel. I also like the interior better (just a tad smaller - more cockpit like) and like the little things (side mirror lowers when you back up - soft lights on the door handles and in storage compartments, car beeps at you when filling tire with air and it's at the correct level etc etc) that the Accord didn't have. I also like the LKAS (in 14 when the TLX was new this was a feature that wasn't nearly as prevalent as it is today) and while it's not a Sports Sedan - it is, without doubt, sporty-er than the CVT Accord I traded in. I also think it looks better. So count me as a happy Acura customer. The flaws have been well documented but for me they don't detract from the things I like about the car.
Frankly I could have bought a car that cost twice as much with no financial strain but I'm very conservative by nature and live well within my means with retirement only a decade away. The Acura fits the bill for me - it's a super nice Accord IMO.
01-16-2017, 12:04 PM
#39
Three Wheelin'
Maple,
I agree with much of what you said. At this point I think the bashing actually needs to be louder and far more direct though. I don't think a 2x4 to the back of the head of Acura at this point would be subtle enough. It took a decade for Acura to get the message about the beak. I doubt they even removed the beak due to the incredibly bad sales or the chorus of journalists and acura enthusiasts telling them to dump it - I'm guessing they decided THEY wanted something new. I wouldn't assume they exactly are running any new ideas up the flagpole as their responses are slower than a government bureaucracy.
I agree with much of what you said. At this point I think the bashing actually needs to be louder and far more direct though. I don't think a 2x4 to the back of the head of Acura at this point would be subtle enough. It took a decade for Acura to get the message about the beak. I doubt they even removed the beak due to the incredibly bad sales or the chorus of journalists and acura enthusiasts telling them to dump it - I'm guessing they decided THEY wanted something new. I wouldn't assume they exactly are running any new ideas up the flagpole as their responses are slower than a government bureaucracy.
01-16-2017, 12:53 PM
#40
Moderator
The bashing really does not need anything more or less to Acura, the sales figures tell them what they want to know. I'd like to think they follow follow the forum for some sort of feedback, but if they do they don't seem to be very concerned about enthusiasts, which has been my contention all along. But one thing is for sure, their marketing direction has changed in the past few years, and the last two generations of RLX's have been a horrible disaster. That is quite obvious when typical dealers only carry one or two of them in stock.
Anybody can create an account and post whatever they want and there's no way to verify the truth. They can get a feel for the general climate but I'm sure they would take it with a grain of salt. I'm quite certain Toyota sales people used to post (probably still do) to the Drive Accord forum under the guise of unhappy Accord owners. Honda sales people likely do the same to the Camry sites. Plus the audience here is very very small compared to all the people who actually own a TLX - and enthusiast sites tend to be slanted far in one direction. And while they may care about us they may not be able to cater specifically to you as opposed to the masses out there.
Granted they may be leaving money on the table today with some of their conservative decisions - it's really impossible for us to know what's going on in the boardroom discussions. And it's not just the RLX - the ILX has been a curiosity and disappointment as well.
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Comfy (02-26-2017)