Is Honda Cannibalizing Acura? (2016 Accord)
11-22-2015, 11:07 AM
#81
I think where Acura went wrong was getting owners used to a more premium mid-size sedan (3G and 4G) and then combining a lower end model (TSX) with the TL. The TSX didn't have a place in the Acura lineup so they should have just gotten rid of it and not lower the quality of the TL to make the TLX.
11-22-2015, 04:20 PM
#83
Racer
Because the ILX competes with the Mercedes CLA, BMW 1 series, and Audi A3 segment. What segment did the TSX compete in? There was no place for it. At the time the ILX served as entry level, TL as mid-size and RLX as flagship. Where does the TSX fall? I think the TLX would have been more solid if there weren't TSX traits tied into it.
11-23-2015, 11:13 AM
#85
Racer
11-23-2015, 09:59 PM
#88
Racer
I think they look very different, but they look most similar in the front with the headlights. Same went for the 1G TSX and 3G TL in the front, looked alike but were two totally different vehicles. I believe it's a good thing, if you look at Mercedes and how similar their current C class is to the S class on the exterior, pretty much just a mini version of the S class, but worlds away from each other on the inside.
11-24-2015, 02:41 AM
#89
Team Owner
So you are saying TLX and Accords are worlds away from each other? if not, i am not sure what is the point comparing S class which costs 100k+ and a C class that costs $35k.
All cars under the same brand will share similar Exterior design. That is nothing new.
The problem is TLX and Accord are not the same brand. and that is the problem.
All cars under the same brand will share similar Exterior design. That is nothing new.
The problem is TLX and Accord are not the same brand. and that is the problem.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 11-24-2015 at 02:44 AM.
11-24-2015, 07:40 AM
#91
I was checking out a TLX in my rear view mirror in traffic last night. It wasn't until it passed me that I realized it was an Accord with what looked like jewel eye headlights and what looked almost like an Acura grill.
They've designed these WAY too closely. You need to at least leave some styling cues to the Acura, don't share the signature jewel eye headlights and grill with your lower tier brand! Can't you even option out the Accord the same or better than the TLX? Did they give the Accord sh-awd yet? LOL
They've designed these WAY too closely. You need to at least leave some styling cues to the Acura, don't share the signature jewel eye headlights and grill with your lower tier brand! Can't you even option out the Accord the same or better than the TLX? Did they give the Accord sh-awd yet? LOL
11-24-2015, 09:57 AM
#92
Racer
I totally agree. Jewel eye headlights are more of a signature Acura thing that should not have made its way into Honda. Then again Honda wants the upper hand when competing with other vehicles. 
11-24-2015, 11:21 AM
#94
Racer
So you are saying TLX and Accords are worlds away from each other? if not, i am not sure what is the point comparing S class which costs 100k+ and a C class that costs $35k.
All cars under the same brand will share similar Exterior design. That is nothing new.
The problem is TLX and Accord are not the same brand. and that is the problem.
All cars under the same brand will share similar Exterior design. That is nothing new.
The problem is TLX and Accord are not the same brand. and that is the problem.
The TLX I4 Tech is only $1,500 more than an Accord Touring, so there are definitely going to be similarities. Despite that tiny price difference, the TLX is still way nicer on the inside and exterior and overall build quality is superior. I could see the complaints if the TLX were $50k, but it's so close in price that there will be shared features. Bottom line is the TLX feels much more luxurious.
Last edited by atl7; 11-24-2015 at 11:23 AM.
11-24-2015, 12:09 PM
#95
Suzuka Master
First off I was saying that the TSX and TL were worlds away from each other, but yes the Accord and TLX are also. I was referencing to vehicles in the same brand being similar and how it's a good thing. A nicely optioned C class is $50k and an S class is $100k, so yes they better be very different vehicles since the S is double the price.
The TLX I4 Tech is only $1,500 more than an Accord Touring, so there are definitely going to be similarities. Despite that tiny price difference, the TLX is still way nicer on the inside and exterior and overall build quality is superior. I could see the complaints if the TLX were $50k, but it's so close in price that there will be shared features. Bottom line is the TLX feels much more luxurious.
The TLX I4 Tech is only $1,500 more than an Accord Touring, so there are definitely going to be similarities. Despite that tiny price difference, the TLX is still way nicer on the inside and exterior and overall build quality is superior. I could see the complaints if the TLX were $50k, but it's so close in price that there will be shared features. Bottom line is the TLX feels much more luxurious.
11-24-2015, 12:23 PM
#96
Racer
I'm not even talking about the technology. The cars have the same technology. I'm referencing to build quality and level of luxury in interior/exterior. The exhaust tips on the Accord are good looking but don't make it the better car.
11-24-2015, 02:36 PM
#98
Team Owner
11-24-2015, 02:42 PM
#100
Team Owner
First off I was saying that the TSX and TL were worlds away from each other, but yes the Accord and TLX are also. I was referencing to vehicles in the same brand being similar and how it's a good thing. A nicely optioned C class is $50k and an S class is $100k, so yes they better be very different vehicles since the S is double the price.
The TLX I4 Tech is only $1,500 more than an Accord Touring, so there are definitely going to be similarities. Despite that tiny price difference, the TLX is still way nicer on the inside and exterior and overall build quality is superior. I could see the complaints if the TLX were $50k, but it's so close in price that there will be shared features. Bottom line is the TLX feels much more luxurious.
The TLX I4 Tech is only $1,500 more than an Accord Touring, so there are definitely going to be similarities. Despite that tiny price difference, the TLX is still way nicer on the inside and exterior and overall build quality is superior. I could see the complaints if the TLX were $50k, but it's so close in price that there will be shared features. Bottom line is the TLX feels much more luxurious.
yes base model TLX model might be nicer inside (slightly?) , build quality? (debatable) and $1500 more. Does Accord touring at $1500 less also offer things that a base TLX doesn't?
I would agree with you if a Base TLX has EVERYTHING Accord Touring has and with better build quality and nicer interior then yah $1,500 difference is cheap. But it doesn't
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11-24-2015, 03:23 PM
#101
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Question on build quality. These cars are done mostly by robots. They use the same steel, same robots, same welding technology, same painting gear, same paint suppliers, same workers & come out of the same build facility in Ohio.
How can the build quality vary?
The TLX might have nicer leather, speakers, trim pieces, etc but I would expect the bodies in white to be 6 of one half a dozen of the other in quality.
How can the build quality vary?
The TLX might have nicer leather, speakers, trim pieces, etc but I would expect the bodies in white to be 6 of one half a dozen of the other in quality.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-24-2015 at 03:25 PM.
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11-24-2015, 03:27 PM
#102
Team Owner
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Honda have jewel eye headlights before Acura? Didn't the accord come out with them at the start of the 9G accord, back in like late 2012?
11-24-2015, 03:53 PM
#104
Racer
a nicely equipped S class (not S63 or 65) is around $130k.
yes base model TLX model might be nicer inside (slightly?) , build quality? (debatable) and $1500 more. Does Accord touring at $1500 less also offer things that a base TLX doesn't?
I would agree with you if a Base TLX has EVERYTHING Accord Touring has and with better build quality and nicer interior then yah $1,500 difference is cheap. But it doesn't
yes base model TLX model might be nicer inside (slightly?) , build quality? (debatable) and $1500 more. Does Accord touring at $1500 less also offer things that a base TLX doesn't?
I would agree with you if a Base TLX has EVERYTHING Accord Touring has and with better build quality and nicer interior then yah $1,500 difference is cheap. But it doesn't
I've looked at an Accord Touring before. There were uneven gaps between the finishes, the doors don't sound as solid as the TLX when being closed, I firmly believe that my TLX is built better and will last longer than an Accord.
And I was referencing to an I4 Tech TLX, not a base model. The Tech I4 TLX offers almost the exact same features as the Accord. Accord only has heated rear seats, parking sensors, auto high beams, ACC and the V6 over the TLX.
Last edited by atl7; 11-24-2015 at 04:05 PM.
11-24-2015, 03:57 PM
#105
Racer
Yes the 2013 Accord had the two LED bulbs for the low beams and halogen high beams. But it is a standard feature on all Acura vehicles and is their signature headlight.
11-24-2015, 04:08 PM
#107
Racer
The quality of materials used in the TLX are superior. Therefore better materials will last and hold up longer.
11-24-2015, 04:21 PM
#108
Team Owner
That means nothing. to be considered selling well, you have to have a bench mark or something to measure up to right?
You are comparing the 40k units to last year of 4G TL sales? 3G TL sales? 3G+TSX sales or its comeptitors' sales #?
that is like saying I am good, i got 6.95.... it means NOTHING.
You are comparing the 40k units to last year of 4G TL sales? 3G TL sales? 3G+TSX sales or its comeptitors' sales #?
that is like saying I am good, i got 6.95.... it means NOTHING.
11-24-2015, 04:27 PM
#109
That means nothing. to be considered selling well, you have to have a bench mark or something to measure up to right?
You are comparing the 40k units to last year of 4G TL sales? 3G TL sales? 3G+TSX sales or its comeptitors' sales #?
that is like saying I am good, i got 6.95.... it means NOTHING.
You are comparing the 40k units to last year of 4G TL sales? 3G TL sales? 3G+TSX sales or its comeptitors' sales #?
that is like saying I am good, i got 6.95.... it means NOTHING.
11-24-2015, 04:31 PM
#110
Team Owner
Between the wood grain, aluminum trim, and soft touch materials, the TLX is much more luxurious on the inside. Obviously a decked out Accord will offer more than a decently equipped TLX Tech. Why do people go out and buy a base A6 when they can get a loaded Passat with more features for $10k less? They pay the premium because it's a luxury vehicle that is of higher quality. Of course a loaded non-luxury vehicle is going to offer more tech than a base model luxury vehicle.
I've looked at an Accord Touring before. There were uneven gaps between the finishes, the doors don't sound as solid as the TLX when being closed, I firmly believe that my TLX is built better and will last longer than an Accord.
And I was referencing to an I4 Tech TLX, not a base model. The Tech I4 TLX offers almost the exact same features as the Accord. Accord only has heated rear seats, parking sensors, auto high beams, ACC and the V6 over the TLX.
I've looked at an Accord Touring before. There were uneven gaps between the finishes, the doors don't sound as solid as the TLX when being closed, I firmly believe that my TLX is built better and will last longer than an Accord.
And I was referencing to an I4 Tech TLX, not a base model. The Tech I4 TLX offers almost the exact same features as the Accord. Accord only has heated rear seats, parking sensors, auto high beams, ACC and the V6 over the TLX.
Remember, I am not here arguing that TLX is somehow the same or inferior to the Accord. It is better than Accord in almost every way.
But there is a price difference and some features are not even offer in the TLX and anything above 30k you are also talking about the V6 Accord vs. 4 banger TLX, minimal differentiation. When all things are taking into consideration, you can see why that Accord and Pilot are stealing sales from their own.
That is the point.
You can argue other brands have similar structure, yes they do. But they hide it very well and differentiate the cheaper and the more expensive model very well.
11-24-2015, 04:32 PM
#111
Team Owner
has it occurred to you that when you hit the rock bottom (4G) anything will be an improvement? "RLX is also selling well"
"Why?"
"I don't know, it just does"
11-24-2015, 04:58 PM
#112
in fact, accord sales are down while tlx sales are up.
Honda slips 1.8% on weaker Accord sales
For the second straight month, a big decline in Honda Accord deliveries dragged down the automaker’s U.S. monthly sales results.
American Honda sold 130,068 vehicles last month, down 1.8 percent as sales of the Accord midsize sedan fell by 20 percent, the second-straight month in which Accord deliveries declined by at least a fifth.
The drop in volume for the venerable midsize sedan prompted Honda Division sales to slip 2.7 percent to 115,194 last month. The Accord’s overall impact on the brand was limited by a 56 percent surge in Fit subcompact sales and record April light-truck deliveries at the Honda Division.
Sales of Honda’s best-selling model, the CR-V compact crossover, rose 3.4 percent to 29,452 and Pilot sales gained 28 percent to 11,222 units.
With a redesigned Pilot and all-new HR-V subcompact crossover arriving soon, Honda is well-positioned to capitalize on strong demand for pickups, crossovers and SUVs that led to a 11 percent increase in U.S. light-truck sales industrywide last month, Jeff Conrad, Honda Division senior vice president and general manager, said in a statement.
“With the CR-V and current Pilot selling so well, and the HR-V and all-new Pilot soon entering the market, our truck lineup is set to drive a very strong 2015 for the Honda brand,” Conrad said. “Though the scales are definitely tipped toward trucks at the moment, we're really pleased at how Fit, Civic and Accord continue to outperform their rivals in the retail marketplace."
TLX gains steam
Acura Division reversed a March decline to post a 5.3 percent gain on strong sales of the new TLX sedan.
Honda’s luxury division sold 14,847 last month as TLX sales totaled 4,093 units, exceeding 4,000 for the third month since its U.S. sales debut in August. Acura has billed the TLX as a replacement for both the TL and TSX sedans. The last time those two nameplates topped 4,000 units was May 2013.
Sales of Acura’s RDX and MDX crossovers slipped last month by single digits, which Acura boss Mike Accavitti attributed to switching production lines over to build freshened 2016 models of the crossovers.
“The Acura TLX has renewed momentum that will continue to grow in the months ahead as it makes major inroads in the tough luxury sedan market,” said Accavitti, Acura Division senior vice president and general manager. “Despite tight supply during the transition from outgoing 2015 models to newly refreshed 2016 models, the RDX and MDX continued to perform exceptionally well in April.”
For the second straight month, a big decline in Honda Accord deliveries dragged down the automaker’s U.S. monthly sales results.
American Honda sold 130,068 vehicles last month, down 1.8 percent as sales of the Accord midsize sedan fell by 20 percent, the second-straight month in which Accord deliveries declined by at least a fifth.
The drop in volume for the venerable midsize sedan prompted Honda Division sales to slip 2.7 percent to 115,194 last month. The Accord’s overall impact on the brand was limited by a 56 percent surge in Fit subcompact sales and record April light-truck deliveries at the Honda Division.
Sales of Honda’s best-selling model, the CR-V compact crossover, rose 3.4 percent to 29,452 and Pilot sales gained 28 percent to 11,222 units.
With a redesigned Pilot and all-new HR-V subcompact crossover arriving soon, Honda is well-positioned to capitalize on strong demand for pickups, crossovers and SUVs that led to a 11 percent increase in U.S. light-truck sales industrywide last month, Jeff Conrad, Honda Division senior vice president and general manager, said in a statement.
“With the CR-V and current Pilot selling so well, and the HR-V and all-new Pilot soon entering the market, our truck lineup is set to drive a very strong 2015 for the Honda brand,” Conrad said. “Though the scales are definitely tipped toward trucks at the moment, we're really pleased at how Fit, Civic and Accord continue to outperform their rivals in the retail marketplace."
TLX gains steam
Acura Division reversed a March decline to post a 5.3 percent gain on strong sales of the new TLX sedan.
Honda’s luxury division sold 14,847 last month as TLX sales totaled 4,093 units, exceeding 4,000 for the third month since its U.S. sales debut in August. Acura has billed the TLX as a replacement for both the TL and TSX sedans. The last time those two nameplates topped 4,000 units was May 2013.
Sales of Acura’s RDX and MDX crossovers slipped last month by single digits, which Acura boss Mike Accavitti attributed to switching production lines over to build freshened 2016 models of the crossovers.
“The Acura TLX has renewed momentum that will continue to grow in the months ahead as it makes major inroads in the tough luxury sedan market,” said Accavitti, Acura Division senior vice president and general manager. “Despite tight supply during the transition from outgoing 2015 models to newly refreshed 2016 models, the RDX and MDX continued to perform exceptionally well in April.”
Last edited by skd2k1; 11-24-2015 at 05:04 PM.
11-24-2015, 05:04 PM
#113
Question on build quality. These cars are done mostly by robots. They use the same steel, same robots, same welding technology, same painting gear, same paint suppliers, same workers & come out of the same build facility in Ohio.
How can the build quality vary?
The TLX might have nicer leather, speakers, trim pieces, etc but I would expect the bodies in white to be 6 of one half a dozen of the other in quality.
How can the build quality vary?
The TLX might have nicer leather, speakers, trim pieces, etc but I would expect the bodies in white to be 6 of one half a dozen of the other in quality.
11-24-2015, 05:49 PM
#114
Registered Abuser of VTEC
Question on build quality. These cars are done mostly by robots. They use the same steel, same robots, same welding technology, same painting gear, same paint suppliers, same workers & come out of the same build facility in Ohio.
How can the build quality vary?
The TLX might have nicer leather, speakers, trim pieces, etc but I would expect the bodies in white to be 6 of one half a dozen of the other in quality.
How can the build quality vary?
The TLX might have nicer leather, speakers, trim pieces, etc but I would expect the bodies in white to be 6 of one half a dozen of the other in quality.
However, they aren't using the same steel. The TLX has a much improved frame over the Accord, sharing only the floor pan. Even my mom noticed a stiffer chassis in the test drives I brought her along for.
For some people, the Accord makes a lot of sense. It used to for me. I owned a 2006 Accord Coupe 6MT for a number of years. But I realized that the TLX is a noticeably different car in driving dynamics the way the whole thing feels put together. Seems pretty subjective, but it's something I noticed. I also test drove a 2016 Accord before I pulled the trigger on the TLX.
11-24-2015, 05:53 PM
#115
Suzuka Master
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I tend to do that on occasion.
Probably should have added same stamping presses & sheet metal die manufactures.
When I think of a quality build my thoughts go to panel fit & alignment. Are the panels smooth & stamped in creases sharp. Are all the seams uniform & tight? Do the panels all open & close properly? (Remember the 3G doors that would close on you leg?)
Does the paint have a high luster, ripple/run free with no orange peal? Does it rattle & is engine/trans vibration isolated from the cabin & so on.
Anything coming out of the same factory should be consistent in these areas to say the build quality is good.
For the rest of the stuff that differentiated brand A sibling from brand H are the upscale things you would expect to have in a more expensive car.
If you had a case which is common in other brands where a top end Accord had leather heated seats F/R & TLX had just front heat would the Honda be thought to have better build quality or just a more upscale interior feature?
Or does the second level Accord sport having 19" wheels & larger tires while the thrill ride has 18" with narrower/taller tires indicate a better build quality?.
Probably should have added same stamping presses & sheet metal die manufactures.When I think of a quality build my thoughts go to panel fit & alignment. Are the panels smooth & stamped in creases sharp. Are all the seams uniform & tight? Do the panels all open & close properly? (Remember the 3G doors that would close on you leg?)
Does the paint have a high luster, ripple/run free with no orange peal? Does it rattle & is engine/trans vibration isolated from the cabin & so on.
Anything coming out of the same factory should be consistent in these areas to say the build quality is good.
For the rest of the stuff that differentiated brand A sibling from brand H are the upscale things you would expect to have in a more expensive car.
If you had a case which is common in other brands where a top end Accord had leather heated seats F/R & TLX had just front heat would the Honda be thought to have better build quality or just a more upscale interior feature?
Or does the second level Accord sport having 19" wheels & larger tires while the thrill ride has 18" with narrower/taller tires indicate a better build quality?.
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11-24-2015, 06:53 PM
#118
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They might have a looser panel gap tolerance for the Accord. I'm not sure if they actually do, but it can allow them to speed up the assembly process to build that volume car. You largely have a fairly good point. Acuras seem to use better paint than Honda as well and/or more coats.
However, they aren't using the same steel. The TLX has a much improved frame over the Accord, sharing only the floor pan. Even my mom noticed a stiffer chassis in the test drives I brought her along for.
For some people, the Accord makes a lot of sense. It used to for me. I owned a 2006 Accord Coupe 6MT for a number of years. But I realized that the TLX is a noticeably different car in driving dynamics the way the whole thing feels put together. Seems pretty subjective, but it's something I noticed. I also test drove a 2016 Accord before I pulled the trigger on the TLX.
However, they aren't using the same steel. The TLX has a much improved frame over the Accord, sharing only the floor pan. Even my mom noticed a stiffer chassis in the test drives I brought her along for.
For some people, the Accord makes a lot of sense. It used to for me. I owned a 2006 Accord Coupe 6MT for a number of years. But I realized that the TLX is a noticeably different car in driving dynamics the way the whole thing feels put together. Seems pretty subjective, but it's something I noticed. I also test drove a 2016 Accord before I pulled the trigger on the TLX.
BTW Accura built 148K & Lexus 311K. No issues as far as I know with panel gaps etc. When you have almost as many F-150 being built in a day a tlx's in a month I would vote on the robots.
Don't know about the paint other than so colors overlap the brands. A while back Honda took a big hit over bad paint. Would have to think the are not now skimping there.
Last item steel. There is no indication Acura is using different steel than Honda. Agree they have a common floor pan but the fact that the upper structure has few common parts is about the stampings not what the stampings are made of.
With all due respect to your Mom IIRC the Accord did better in the initial crash tests. Changes have brought it up to spec. Not 100% on this one but do remember reading here there were some issues with it.
Fun thing to do if you ever get a chance. Visit a modern auto plant. In some of the main body building areas you could fire a shotgun down the line & never hit a human.
Think in a lot of cases once you get past a top of the line CIVIC you are buying wants not needs. Buying wants is also known as buying luxuries
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-24-2015 at 07:00 PM.
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11-24-2015, 08:04 PM
#119
Registered Abuser of VTEC
I agree. Buying wants are luxuries. Something like the stiffer chassis is how it feels in the turns.
Acura did a thing awhile back where they showed the steel types they were using for the TLX. They actually are different, a lot more high strength steel. They did a colour coded breakdown somewhere.
In any event, I think you're right that panel fitment and build quality stuff should be largely the same in recent years.
Acura did a thing awhile back where they showed the steel types they were using for the TLX. They actually are different, a lot more high strength steel. They did a colour coded breakdown somewhere.
In any event, I think you're right that panel fitment and build quality stuff should be largely the same in recent years.
11-24-2015, 08:31 PM
#120
Fearless DIY Guy
Thread Starter
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Worldsteel.org - ACE TLX Chassis Construction
Agree that both come from the same Marysville line and will feature precious little differentiation in build quality.