Acura is making it hard....
10-22-2016, 09:44 AM
#41
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For the RLX Tech, the weight difference between FWD and eSH-AWD is about 343lb. The price difference is $5500.
The current TLX V6 is $35350 at 3585lb.
Based on the above, a TLX V6 eSH-AWD Tech should be around $40850 at 3928lb:
Power: 377hp
Torque: 341lbft
Weight: 3928lb
Price: $41k
How do the above compare to the competition?
BMW 340i Xdrive:
Power: 320hp
Torque: 330lbft
Weight: 3858lb
Price: $50k
Mercedes Benz C450 AMG:
Power: 362hp
Torque: 384lbft
Weight: 3834lb
Price: $51.7k
Infiniti Q60 Red Sport 400:
Power: 400hp
Torque: 350lbft
Weight: 3872lb
Price: $48.9k
Audi S4 (2017 - new gen):
Power: 354hp
Torque: 369lbft
Weight: unknown
Price: Around $50k
The current TLX V6 is $35350 at 3585lb.
Based on the above, a TLX V6 eSH-AWD Tech should be around $40850 at 3928lb:
Power: 377hp
Torque: 341lbft
Weight: 3928lb
Price: $41k
How do the above compare to the competition?
BMW 340i Xdrive:
Power: 320hp
Torque: 330lbft
Weight: 3858lb
Price: $50k
Mercedes Benz C450 AMG:
Power: 362hp
Torque: 384lbft
Weight: 3834lb
Price: $51.7k
Infiniti Q60 Red Sport 400:
Power: 400hp
Torque: 350lbft
Weight: 3872lb
Price: $48.9k
Audi S4 (2017 - new gen):
Power: 354hp
Torque: 369lbft
Weight: unknown
Price: Around $50k
Its actual instrumented performance numbers also back up a crank horsepower in the 370 range.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-22-2016 at 09:46 AM.
10-22-2016, 09:32 PM
#43
Why did Acura spend so much time/money to develop hybrid system in NSX? I read somewhere that now it is trying to bring purer version of NSX withou the hybrid components. Whatever that is, percolate that system down to other sedans rather than the hybrid system. Market is not yet ready for performance hybrid..And i dont think V6 turbo engine, longitudinal layout and read wheel biased AWD is that difficult to achieve..
10-23-2016, 09:19 AM
#44
I do not think it's impossible to get a TLX to sell well if they want to offer some nice performance options and tech options and make us pay for it. I look at the MDX and see how well it does and how expensive it is and they offer it. They just need to do it right if they are going to do it.
The correct statement would be, if the TLX had better performance, it would sell even better. Since it would appease the crowd here at the forums that are enthusiasts for the most part. Maybe even get bashed less.
10-23-2016, 11:10 AM
#45
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Thing to think about when comparing it to the 3/4 & C class is it should lead them based on price. The TL was seen as a value priced alternative to them the TLX not so much.
Personally I find it hard to understand why its not selling better since its a nice looking car inside & out with an attractive price. Although I have always been a performance buyer I don't think a lack of horsepower is the sole answer. I wonder if the poor showing of the 4G is unfairly carrying over & casting a shadow onto the TLX. The 4G went from the best selling car to one that was outsold by the 5 series.
One thing I would put some money was the botched launch with transmissions not ready for prime time. Think they over reacted to the constant slippage in release dates by putting it into the market before it was ready.
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TacoBello (10-23-2016)
10-23-2016, 01:18 PM
#46
Its always compared to what. Was a time it lead that segment by a significant margin. Peak actual sales for a year TL 78,218 vs TLX 47,080. Don't know how this year will turn out but its possible it would take two years of TLX sales to equal one of the TL's.
Thing to think about when comparing it to the 3/4 & C class is it should lead them based on price. The TL was seen as a value priced alternative to them the TLX not so much.
Personally I find it hard to understand why its not selling better since its a nice looking car inside & out with an attractive price. Although I have always been a performance buyer I don't think a lack of horsepower is the sole answer. I wonder if the poor showing of the 4G is unfairly carrying over & casting a shadow onto the TLX. The 4G went from the best selling car to one that was outsold by the 5 series.
One thing I would put some money was the botched launch with transmissions not ready for prime time. Think they over reacted to the constant slippage in release dates by putting it into the market before it was ready.
Thing to think about when comparing it to the 3/4 & C class is it should lead them based on price. The TL was seen as a value priced alternative to them the TLX not so much.
Personally I find it hard to understand why its not selling better since its a nice looking car inside & out with an attractive price. Although I have always been a performance buyer I don't think a lack of horsepower is the sole answer. I wonder if the poor showing of the 4G is unfairly carrying over & casting a shadow onto the TLX. The 4G went from the best selling car to one that was outsold by the 5 series.
One thing I would put some money was the botched launch with transmissions not ready for prime time. Think they over reacted to the constant slippage in release dates by putting it into the market before it was ready.
However, if the trend continues until the end of the year, the TLX risk of having a final tally lower then that supposedly ugly 4G in the years 2009-2012 (the 4G peaked in 2010) when the economy was in the toilet and with a car with a starting price 5 grand higher than the TLX.
My personal opinion is exactly the opposite of yours, I think the TLX is selling better than it should because of the Acura brand equity when it comes to reliability reputation. Pinning the sales performance of the TLX to the 4G, frankly is nonsense to me....but in a way you are right in the sense that not many 4G owners are jumping on the TLX, they are going somewhere else.
Last edited by saturno_v; 10-23-2016 at 01:21 PM.
10-23-2016, 01:37 PM
#47
The TLX is selling well. Look at sales the last 1.5 years and it is only behind the 3/4 series and the c class. The q50 is making waves lately but i think its only because of the aggressive discounts they are giving... i was able to negotiate 8.5k off a q50 with 41k msrp. This is with little negotiating by my standards. Off the bat, they gave me 7k off, saw the opportunity and asked for more.
The correct statement would be, if the TLX had better performance, it would sell even better. Since it would appease the crowd here at the forums that are enthusiasts for the most part. Maybe even get bashed less.
The correct statement would be, if the TLX had better performance, it would sell even better. Since it would appease the crowd here at the forums that are enthusiasts for the most part. Maybe even get bashed less.
The Maxima is doing extremely well, I would not touch that car because of the CVT but the buying public does not seem to care....sure some of these sales are fleet but is clocking an average of twice or so the number of the TLX monthly...however, the Maxima as well does not escape the general historic sales downtrend for sedans (98.5K pieces sold in 2002)
10-23-2016, 01:58 PM
#48
Pro
Maybe the market for the car is just smaller because people with families are buying crossovers instead of sedans. Now that CPO exists and german lease rates are so good, people buying for the badge will always buy the 3/C/A4 over this. There's no reason not to anymore. People buying for performance will always buy the 3/Q/Caddy over this. People buying for luxury will buy the C/A4/IS over this. If you're practical and into reliability, you buy the accord instead because it's pricepoint is better and it's just missing awd. If you want practicality and awd, you're probably already more interested in the crossovers. Maybe we need to start comparing the 2nd gen and 3rd gen sales figures to the sales figures of the TLX AND the RDX. In this case, Acura's doing really well right now.?
10-23-2016, 07:05 PM
#49
Suzuka Master
I am at my friends this weekend and his wife has a brand new 16 Optima and I will say that it is a very strong competitor. Infotainment is light years ahead of Acura. Ride was excellent and comfortable and tons of space I side, it actually felt like the front seat space was more than my TLX. Power folding side mirrors, beautiful LED tail and brake lights, and beautiful lines. It is clear Acura is being squeezed and needs to act with some impressive improvements for the 5G.
10-23-2016, 07:14 PM
#50
I am at my friends this weekend and his wife has a brand new 16 Optima and I will say that it is a very strong competitor. Infotainment is light years ahead of Acura. Ride was excellent and comfortable and tons of space I side, it actually felt like the front seat space was more than my TLX. Power folding side mirrors, beautiful LED tail and brake lights, and beautiful lines. It is clear Acura is being squeezed and needs to act with some impressive improvements for the 5G.
I rent cars all the time because I travel a lot for work (and pleasure) reasons......I think a lot of people have no idea how good many mainstream sedans have become.....
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nore03 (10-24-2016)
10-23-2016, 08:09 PM
#51
Team Owner
I am at my friends this weekend and his wife has a brand new 16 Optima and I will say that it is a very strong competitor. Infotainment is light years ahead of Acura. Ride was excellent and comfortable and tons of space I side, it actually felt like the front seat space was more than my TLX. Power folding side mirrors, beautiful LED tail and brake lights, and beautiful lines. It is clear Acura is being squeezed and needs to act with some impressive improvements for the 5G.
10-23-2016, 10:18 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
What I find particularly interesting is the customer retention rate from current TLX owners. Although it was at one point selling extremely well, many TLX owners are now having second thoughts and are either trading them or looking elsewhere for new models to compare. I remember when the TLX was announced, many (myself included) were extremely happy and curious about all the technology the car had compared to others (lane following assist, for example). Fast forward 3 years and NOTHING was done to keep Acura customers looking at the TLX. Unfortunately the only highlights were related to problems.
The luxury car market has been greatly affected by the trickle down effect of technology being now offered on even base models. The Koreans started it, forcing Honda/Toyota to keep up with their major sellers. I myself have reached a point where buying luxury means buying a brand. If it wasn't for SH-AWD, Acura would very well be in it's final years due to so many Honda's being better purchases in the current market.
The luxury car market has been greatly affected by the trickle down effect of technology being now offered on even base models. The Koreans started it, forcing Honda/Toyota to keep up with their major sellers. I myself have reached a point where buying luxury means buying a brand. If it wasn't for SH-AWD, Acura would very well be in it's final years due to so many Honda's being better purchases in the current market.
10-24-2016, 09:22 AM
#53
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Agree, got my grandson a Genesis R-Spec Coupe for graduation.
10-24-2016, 09:57 AM
#54
in the end we can talk about tech and performance but all acura really needs to do to bring in more buyers... make it sexy.
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10-24-2016, 10:05 AM
#56
Randy is the Future
Thread Starter
What I find particularly interesting is the customer retention rate from current TLX owners. Although it was at one point selling extremely well, many TLX owners are now having second thoughts and are either trading them or looking elsewhere for new models to compare. I remember when the TLX was announced, many (myself included) were extremely happy and curious about all the technology the car had compared to others (lane following assist, for example). Fast forward 3 years and NOTHING was done to keep Acura customers looking at the TLX. Unfortunately the only highlights were related to problems.
The luxury car market has been greatly affected by the trickle down effect of technology being now offered on even base models. The Koreans started it, forcing Honda/Toyota to keep up with their major sellers. I myself have reached a point where buying luxury means buying a brand. If it wasn't for SH-AWD, Acura would very well be in it's final years due to so many Honda's being better purchases in the current market.
The luxury car market has been greatly affected by the trickle down effect of technology being now offered on even base models. The Koreans started it, forcing Honda/Toyota to keep up with their major sellers. I myself have reached a point where buying luxury means buying a brand. If it wasn't for SH-AWD, Acura would very well be in it's final years due to so many Honda's being better purchases in the current market.
That is how I feel, looking at how all the mainstream brands are offering all the tech that we have in our cars, I am worried about where is Acura going to go next? 3 years ago when I first saw the TLX and saw what it had to offer, I was pretty much sold. I remember walking into a dealership and saying to the sales person, "I can't wait til they build on this in the coming years and just keep making it better. They got the styling pretty much done right." Watching it as the years have gone on, just about every make and model as upgraded themselves (even Honda) and we are still driving the same TLX. Even the tech stuff(like the autonomous driving stuff) is available in all brands. It is standard in every 2017 EX Cr-V and up. My friends all keep asking me why am I driving an Acura when I can save money and just get a loaded up Accord. My response is always "its not the same car, you would have to drive it to see/feel why my car is better". As time continues to go on though, that answer just does not feel real anymore.
10-24-2016, 11:53 AM
#57
very stagnant for sure. micro improvements while others are taking huge leaps. 2017 MDX and NSX are steps in the right direction. The TLX could have been killer product out of the gate but it seems Acura's conservative nature peeked its ugly head again. Good car overall but could be so much better. Unfortunately, John Ikeda was not in charge at that time. Lets see what he does with the 2018 TLX this coming spring. I can already tell you the exterior appearance will be greatly improved but I am hoping thats not the only emphasis.
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justnspace (10-24-2016)
10-24-2016, 12:44 PM
#59
Moderator
That is how I feel, looking at how all the mainstream brands are offering all the tech that we have in our cars, I am worried about where is Acura going to go next? 3 years ago when I first saw the TLX and saw what it had to offer, I was pretty much sold. I remember walking into a dealership and saying to the sales person, "I can't wait til they build on this in the coming years and just keep making it better. They got the styling pretty much done right." Watching it as the years have gone on, just about every make and model as upgraded themselves (even Honda) and we are still driving the same TLX. Even the tech stuff(like the autonomous driving stuff) is available in all brands. It is standard in every 2017 EX Cr-V and up. My friends all keep asking me why am I driving an Acura when I can save money and just get a loaded up Accord. My response is always "its not the same car, you would have to drive it to see/feel why my car is better". As time continues to go on though, that answer just does not feel real anymore.
1) Technology in cars is CHANGING FAST. The new Accord/CR-V has to have the latest tech in it when it's released or they are DOA because all the competition has it.
2) The TLX DID HAVE the latest tech when it was newly released - the lane keep assist and adaptive cruise control type features weren't in any Hondas - or many mainstream type cars.
3) No major auto manufacturer adds major changes to their models on a yearly basis.
So while we can look at tech in new cars and complain that Acura doesn't have it - it's not because Acura sucks or they're stupid or they don't care. It's where they are in the release cycle.
My wife and I recently purchased a 2016 CR-V and in the process we test drove lots of new vehicles. Other than a few (the Mazda CX9 for one - VERY upscale interior) I always felt getting back in my 2 year old TLX was an upgrade. Granted we weren't shopping luxury cars - but we were shopping upper trim levels on all the cars/SUV's we drove - and not one of them (CX9 excluded) offered a more luxury feel than my TLX. The NVH and ride quality on the TLX was equal or better than everything I drove. The new CR-V we bought had an MSRP of over 30k (we paid much less) and it's not near as nice as my TLX which MSRP'd at 35k. Regardless - the TLX isn't a 100k Mercedes but from my experience for what it is it's still, overall, a great value and a really nice car. Do they need to address some issues at the MMC - yes. Is the sky falling - no.
10-24-2016, 02:08 PM
#60
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And nowadays, Honda doesn't seem to care too much about cannibalization. Just look at the new Civic vs the ILX, and the facelifted Accord vs TLX.
You might be right - but arguably the RLX was done (mostly) right - as far as tech and performance goes - and they can't give them away. I don't think you can use the MDX as a point of comparison as it's also in the super hot segment right now - and even "non luxury" three row SUV's (like the CX9) top out near 40k. Frankly I wonder if the luxury/sport sedan market is so saturated that they feel there is more money to be made in the value luxury slot. Certainly seems to have been the focus for the TLX and ILX.
Only thing wrong with the chart is that the power figures bear no resemblance to reality. Example: based on a large number of chassis dynos using a 12% correction factor (chassis to engine dyno) the BMW340 @ 331WHP could be rated anywhere up to 370BHP.
Its actual instrumented performance numbers also back up a crank horsepower in the 370 range.
Its actual instrumented performance numbers also back up a crank horsepower in the 370 range.
340i xdrive:
2016 BMW 340i xDrive Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.9s
1/4 mile: 13.3@104mph
C450 AMG:
2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.5s
1/4 mile: 13.1@108mph
Q50 Red Sport 400:
2016 Infiniti Q50S 3.0T Red Sport 400 Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.5s
1/4 mile: 13@112mph
With 87hp more along with much more low end torque, I'd imagine a TLX Sport Hybrid should be a lot closer to these than the current TLX V6.
10-24-2016, 02:13 PM
#61
very stagnant for sure. micro improvements while others are taking huge leaps. 2017 MDX and NSX are steps in the right direction. The TLX could have been killer product out of the gate but it seems Acura's conservative nature peeked its ugly head again. Good car overall but could be so much better. Unfortunately, John Ikeda was not in charge at that time. Lets see what he does with the 2018 TLX this coming spring. I can already tell you the exterior appearance will be greatly improved but I am hoping thats not the only emphasis.
sounds like they are dragging their feet, once again.
Acura cannot take 10 years to establish it's PCP formula.
Next year, Honda plans to add production of the CR-V to its Greensburg, Ind., plant.
As a remedy, he soon may fire up Honda's Japan export engine.
In an interview with Automotive News, Hachigo said a blitz of key redesigns, starting this fall with the redesigned CR-V and continuing with updates to the Odyssey and Accord, will intensify the capacity problem.
"Let's say we reach 1.7 million [U.S. sales] this year, then we want to add on top of that next year with the new models coming in and such," Hachigo said.
His upbeat outlook contrasts with a forecast for total U.S. demand to be flat, at best, in 2017.
"If overseas plant capacity is getting close to full, then rather than make a new investment, we might think about getting more supply from another global plant," he said.
American Honda sold about 1.6 million vehicles in 2015, and Hachigo says he wants to keep stoking the increase by realigning production to feed more light trucks into the market.
Next year, Honda will add CR-V crossover production to its Greensburg, Ind., plant that makes the Civic and add Acura MDX crossover production to its East Liberty, Ohio, plant.
If those tweaks still don't satisfy demand, Hachigo said Honda will tap overseas factories. Honda's plant in Britain may send Civics to make room stateside for more CR-V output.
But more likely, Honda will tap its Japan plants for more CR-Vs or Civics.
"We'd like to utilize Japan production," he said.
Doing so would help Honda with a big headache of overcapacity in Japan.
Honda plans to add Acura MDX production to its East Liberty, Ohio, plant.
For years, when the yen was bumping against record highs, Honda dialed down exports from Japan to a bare trickle to offset the profit-eating impact of exchange-rate losses.
In 2015, Honda exported just 26,802 vehicles to North America, its biggest market.
But when Hachigo took the helm last year, he decided to make better use of excess capacity and cash in on a dramatic weakening of the yen. The currency's sudden slide in 2015 to its lowest levels in years against the dollar and other currencies made exporting profitable again.
Now Hachigo wants to ramp up Japan output. His goal is to produce 700,000 vehicles a year in Japan for sale domestically and another 100,000 to 200,000 for export.
"We are doing a lot of activities on the manufacturing side so we can be competitive exporting that 100,000 to 200,000 at the current foreign exchange rate," he said.
While American Honda sales were up 3.4 percent through September, outpacing an overall market that inched ahead just 0.3 percent, the sluggish Acura brand is still a sore point.
Sales at the company's luxury marque slumped 9.3 percent in the first nine months, with cars plunging 17 percent and even light trucks declining by 4.5 percent.
"I am not satisfied'
"Of course, I am not satisfied with the current results," Hachigo said of Acura.
Acura needs to reinforce its strength in light trucks while improving the appeal of its sedans by spicing up their design and driving performance, he said. Management, Hachigo promised, would be patient with Acura, focusing 1st on a solid foothold in the U.S. and China before rekindling the global expansion plans the brand jettisoned during the global financial crisis.
"Globally, we think the U.S. and China are the only regions where it is possible for us to cap the 2 pillars [of regional and global vehicles] with a luxury brand," he said. "For other regions, we want to build a solid business using the region-specific models and global models 1st."
we are running out of patience
10-24-2016, 02:42 PM
#62
Moderator
the new Marketing paragraph that was put out yesterday or today, doesnt inspire confidence.
sounds like they are dragging their feet, once again.
Acura cannot take 10 years to establish it's PCP formula.
we are running out of patience
Acura needs to reinforce its strength in light trucks while improving the appeal of its sedans by spicing up their design and driving performance, he said.
sounds like they are dragging their feet, once again.
Acura cannot take 10 years to establish it's PCP formula.
we are running out of patience
Acura needs to reinforce its strength in light trucks while improving the appeal of its sedans by spicing up their design and driving performance, he said.
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justnspace (10-24-2016)
10-24-2016, 03:37 PM
#64
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Oh yes, the 340i is underrated. Perhaps I should post some acceleration figures.
340i xdrive:
2016 BMW 340i xDrive Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.9s
1/4 mile: 13.3@104mph
C450 AMG:
2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.5s
1/4 mile: 13.1@108mph
Q50 Red Sport 400:
2016 Infiniti Q50S 3.0T Red Sport 400 Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.5s
1/4 mile: 13@112mph
With 87hp more along with much more low end torque, I'd imagine a TLX Sport Hybrid should be a lot closer to these than the current TLX V6.
340i xdrive:
2016 BMW 340i xDrive Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.9s
1/4 mile: 13.3@104mph
C450 AMG:
2016 Mercedes-Benz C450 AMG Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.5s
1/4 mile: 13.1@108mph
Q50 Red Sport 400:
2016 Infiniti Q50S 3.0T Red Sport 400 Test ? Review ? Car and Driver
0-60mph: 4.5s
1/4 mile: 13@112mph
With 87hp more along with much more low end torque, I'd imagine a TLX Sport Hybrid should be a lot closer to these than the current TLX V6.
The 6MT RWD is the slowest in the series the 8AT AWD the fastest.
C&D
6MT RWD Paired with a six-speed manual, the B58 engine shaved a few tenths off the zero-to-60-mph time of the last manual 335i we tested, returning a 4.8-second dash.
8AT AWD And when it comes to straight-line shenanigans, hold on—xDrive’s added traction adds bite to the 435i’s launches, resulting in a blistering 4.5-second zero-to-60-mph time
Edmunds
8AT AWD our new long-term 2016 BMW 340i's performance at the test track. Hopefully, you noted its 0-60 time: 4.4 seconds. Or, 4.1 seconds with 1 foot of roll-out, which is how enthusiast publications would report it.
10-24-2016, 04:06 PM
#65
Pro
All of these impressive AWD launch figures are cool, but trap speeds tell a better story. It reminds me of the days when stock EVO/STI guys would drag E46 M3s and then end it at 60mph because they knew what was about to happen.
Anyway, I'd imagine a TLX sport hybrid could definitely match the 340i's trap speed, especially the AWD version's (which is 2mph slower than the RWD version's). A member in the RLX forum (RLX-Sport Hybrid) saw similar figures and that car weighs more than a TLX would. That would be pretty appealing to most enthusiasts, i'd think, especially with the added benefits of the fuel economy boost and the implied reliability of Acura (although, I must admit that my neither my S55 or my N54 have ever given me any engine/drivetrain problems. Not even a bad fuel pump. And that N54 has been pushing 500whp for over 30k miles now).
It seems like it would be a no brainer for Acura. It certainly couldn't hurt. if they did kickstarters for cars, I'd sign up for it.
Anyway, I'd imagine a TLX sport hybrid could definitely match the 340i's trap speed, especially the AWD version's (which is 2mph slower than the RWD version's). A member in the RLX forum (RLX-Sport Hybrid) saw similar figures and that car weighs more than a TLX would. That would be pretty appealing to most enthusiasts, i'd think, especially with the added benefits of the fuel economy boost and the implied reliability of Acura (although, I must admit that my neither my S55 or my N54 have ever given me any engine/drivetrain problems. Not even a bad fuel pump. And that N54 has been pushing 500whp for over 30k miles now).
It seems like it would be a no brainer for Acura. It certainly couldn't hurt. if they did kickstarters for cars, I'd sign up for it.
10-24-2016, 05:55 PM
#66
Burning Brakes
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10-25-2016, 06:44 AM
#68
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All of these impressive AWD launch figures are cool, but trap speeds tell a better story. It reminds me of the days when stock EVO/STI guys would drag E46 M3s and then end it at 60mph because they knew what was about to happen.
Anyway, I'd imagine a TLX sport hybrid could definitely match the 340i's trap speed, especially the AWD version's (which is 2mph slower than the RWD version's). A member in the RLX forum (RLX-Sport Hybrid) saw similar figures and that car weighs more than a TLX would. That would be pretty appealing to most enthusiasts, i'd think, especially with the added benefits of the fuel economy boost and the implied reliability of Acura (although, I must admit that my neither my S55 or my N54 have ever given me any engine/drivetrain problems. Not even a bad fuel pump. And that N54 has been pushing 500whp for over 30k miles now).
It seems like it would be a no brainer for Acura. It certainly couldn't hurt. if they did kickstarters for cars, I'd sign up for it.
Anyway, I'd imagine a TLX sport hybrid could definitely match the 340i's trap speed, especially the AWD version's (which is 2mph slower than the RWD version's). A member in the RLX forum (RLX-Sport Hybrid) saw similar figures and that car weighs more than a TLX would. That would be pretty appealing to most enthusiasts, i'd think, especially with the added benefits of the fuel economy boost and the implied reliability of Acura (although, I must admit that my neither my S55 or my N54 have ever given me any engine/drivetrain problems. Not even a bad fuel pump. And that N54 has been pushing 500whp for over 30k miles now).
It seems like it would be a no brainer for Acura. It certainly couldn't hurt. if they did kickstarters for cars, I'd sign up for it.
CR just released its consumer reliability report & BMW got 7 cars as recommended including the 3 series which lines up with my personal experience.
10-25-2016, 12:27 PM
#69
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Would you have more links from reputable magazines that show stock 340i with a trap speeds of 109-112mph? I'm having a hard time finding it. Car and Driver and Motor Trend are all reporting 104-106mph for the 6MT, and Edmunds shows 108mph for the 8AT.
And the Edmunds article says, "The manufacturer provided Edmunds with this vehicle for the purpose of evaluation." Not sure if it could be ringer too. Would be nice to have more numbers available from good sources.
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that in this class of cars, the likes of 340i, C450 AMG, Red Sport 400, they are all trapping at around 106-112mph. The idea is to use eSH-AWD to bring the TLX's current 103mph trap speed up to par in that range.
And the Edmunds article says, "The manufacturer provided Edmunds with this vehicle for the purpose of evaluation." Not sure if it could be ringer too. Would be nice to have more numbers available from good sources.
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that in this class of cars, the likes of 340i, C450 AMG, Red Sport 400, they are all trapping at around 106-112mph. The idea is to use eSH-AWD to bring the TLX's current 103mph trap speed up to par in that range.
10-25-2016, 11:20 PM
#70
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Would you have more links from reputable magazines that show stock 340i with a trap speeds of 109-112mph? I'm having a hard time finding it. Car and Driver and Motor Trend are all reporting 104-106mph for the 6MT, and Edmunds shows 108mph for the 8AT.
And the Edmunds article says, "The manufacturer provided Edmunds with this vehicle for the purpose of evaluation." Not sure if it could be ringer too. Would be nice to have more numbers available from good sources.
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that in this class of cars, the likes of 340i, C450 AMG, Red Sport 400, they are all trapping at around 106-112mph. The idea is to use eSH-AWD to bring the TLX's current 103mph trap speed up to par in that range.
And the Edmunds article says, "The manufacturer provided Edmunds with this vehicle for the purpose of evaluation." Not sure if it could be ringer too. Would be nice to have more numbers available from good sources.
Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that in this class of cars, the likes of 340i, C450 AMG, Red Sport 400, they are all trapping at around 106-112mph. The idea is to use eSH-AWD to bring the TLX's current 103mph trap speed up to par in that range.
The BMW & Porsche clubs are very active here & there is usually at least one vent to go to any month. Will be doing the charity laps at VIR on DEC 2 with the BMW guys. Nice day & the COBRA goes instead of the 435. Already have requests for rides.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 10-25-2016 at 11:30 PM.
10-25-2016, 11:38 PM
#71
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Got timed out DUH.
As for the TLX I think you would need 355/360 hp at the wheels. A pretty big jump for a car with only 290 hp at the crank in a car that can weigh 3600.3700lbs. Think you would need a block & lower end designed to take the boost required to get there. I had 370whp to do 114.5 mph & over 400 to make 116mph.
As for the TLX I think you would need 355/360 hp at the wheels. A pretty big jump for a car with only 290 hp at the crank in a car that can weigh 3600.3700lbs. Think you would need a block & lower end designed to take the boost required to get there. I had 370whp to do 114.5 mph & over 400 to make 116mph.
10-26-2016, 07:44 PM
#72
Got timed out DUH.
As for the TLX I think you would need 355/360 hp at the wheels. A pretty big jump for a car with only 290 hp at the crank in a car that can weigh 3600.3700lbs. Think you would need a block & lower end designed to take the boost required to get there. I had 370whp to do 114.5 mph & over 400 to make 116mph.
As for the TLX I think you would need 355/360 hp at the wheels. A pretty big jump for a car with only 290 hp at the crank in a car that can weigh 3600.3700lbs. Think you would need a block & lower end designed to take the boost required to get there. I had 370whp to do 114.5 mph & over 400 to make 116mph.
10-27-2016, 04:10 AM
#73
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It seems they planned sport hybrid systems around 2012 when gas price was 3.5$ and above and they thought it will go up. They also planned their models based on competition at that time, did not realize that competition will improve in hp/torque (and turbo lag will be almost gone in next few years). I hope feedback on NSX will force them to rethink their approach.
In the 10 year historical results its #17.
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CheeseyPoofs McNut (10-28-2016)
10-27-2016, 08:06 AM
#74
Am pretty sure they understand their issues but might not have a ready solution. The NSX with the hybrid system has not done well in the US racing series & they are going with a standard turbo engine package & dropping the electrics. The car was also a disappointment in the annual C&D Lightning Laps series. In the 2016 running the NSX placed 7th about 3 seconds behind a StingRay Grand Sport & 1 second ahead of a Mustang 350GTR. Car was just over $200K as run, StingRay $92K & the Mustang $66K
In the 10 year historical results its #17.
In the 10 year historical results its #17.
10-27-2016, 01:58 PM
#75
I had this exact same thought. I have a TLX SH-AWD and it's fine as a daily driver. I was hoping to trade up at some point to a better version or model. Acura is letting me (an Acura/Honda fan) die a slow death here as I watch every other brand+model come out with F-Sport versions and more aggressive engineering. I got into a top-spec'd 2016 Honda Odyssey a couple of months ago and was irritated that it not only had everything in my TLX Advanced but also active side cameras when turning and a nicer dashboard. The owner had gotten a custom exhaust and suspension for the minivan which made it feel hilariously sporty. Next time I'll just consider going Honda and building a sleeper.
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pyrodan007 (10-27-2016)
10-27-2016, 02:11 PM
#76
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If it takes 370whp for 114.5mph and 400whp for 116mph, then 108-110mph would require something like 300-320whp instead? Given the TLX is heavier, may be on the higher end of that, or even 330whp.
Unlike the Corvette GS and GT350R, the NSX wasn't designed to be a track car. Those cars have massive grippy tires, tricked out suspension, lots of aero, and many track focused goodies.
For reference, the Corvette GS is even faster than the even more expensive McLaren 570S. 911 Turbo, R8 V10 Plus. It's as fast as a 911 GT3 RS (which is also a track car) and only 2 seconds behind a brand spanking new Ferrari 488 with 660hp.
Unlike the Corvette GS and GT350R, the NSX wasn't designed to be a track car. Those cars have massive grippy tires, tricked out suspension, lots of aero, and many track focused goodies.
For reference, the Corvette GS is even faster than the even more expensive McLaren 570S. 911 Turbo, R8 V10 Plus. It's as fast as a 911 GT3 RS (which is also a track car) and only 2 seconds behind a brand spanking new Ferrari 488 with 660hp.
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nist7 (11-05-2016)
10-27-2016, 02:49 PM
#77
Burning Brakes
I had this exact same thought. I have a TLX SH-AWD and it's fine as a daily driver. I was hoping to trade up at some point to a better version or model. Acura is letting me (an Acura/Honda fan) die a slow death here as I watch every other brand+model come out with F-Sport versions and more aggressive engineering. I got into a top-spec'd 2016 Honda Odyssey a couple of months ago and was irritated that it not only had everything in my TLX Advanced but also active side cameras when turning and a nicer dashboard. The owner had gotten a custom exhaust and suspension for the minivan which made it feel hilariously sporty. Next time I'll just consider going Honda and building a sleeper.
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HattoriHonda (11-02-2016)
10-27-2016, 05:13 PM
#78
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This is my exact feeling right now. There's no way I'll spend 40k on a new Acura if I know I can get 95% of the technology at a cheaper price. I understand that Honda gets the stuff first, but why can't Acura get the bleeding edge versions of what Honda is developing? Being behind and picking up pieces is really not the way to go for luxury. Look at freakin Nissan and their new variable compression engine. Infiniti is getting it first! Honda would have kept it for itself and then maybe tune it for Acura. Should be the exact opposite, de-tune it for mainstream for trickle down tech.
10-28-2016, 07:19 AM
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If it takes 370whp for 114.5mph and 400whp for 116mph, then 108-110mph would require something like 300-320whp instead? Given the TLX is heavier, may be on the higher end of that, or even 330whp.
Unlike the Corvette GS and GT350R, the NSX wasn't designed to be a track car. Those cars have massive grippy tires, tricked out suspension, lots of aero, and many track focused goodies.
For reference, the Corvette GS is even faster than the even more expensive McLaren 570S. 911 Turbo, R8 V10 Plus. It's as fast as a 911 GT3 RS (which is also a track car) and only 2 seconds behind a brand spanking new Ferrari 488 with 660hp.
Unlike the Corvette GS and GT350R, the NSX wasn't designed to be a track car. Those cars have massive grippy tires, tricked out suspension, lots of aero, and many track focused goodies.
For reference, the Corvette GS is even faster than the even more expensive McLaren 570S. 911 Turbo, R8 V10 Plus. It's as fast as a 911 GT3 RS (which is also a track car) and only 2 seconds behind a brand spanking new Ferrari 488 with 660hp.
Two quick responses
My 335is pure stock dynoed at 319/323whp @ best mph was a shade over 110mph. ET best was 13 flat was limited by off the line traction problems requiring a 2nd gear start. Better & wider ( 275 replacing 255 ) tires helped as the power was brought up but 2nd gear was always used. This was pretty common with all the 3 series at that time including the BMS shop car.
Problem with calculating power requirements off the cuff is that speed & power required are not linier. Due to drag the power requirement goes up way faster than the speed increase. So the faster the car goes the steeper the power requirement goes up.On the new NSX: Initially like the original it was to be the reasonably priced Ferrari Killer.
The reincarnation has proven , so far, to be neither reasonably priced or a Ferrari killer. Its very much like the TLX in automobile limbo, neither priced right or fast enough for the two sort of opposed objectives. it does not get a pass for tires since it was running on track tires, the Pirelli equivalent of the StingRays Michelins. It also out powered the Stingray by 116bhp since the GS is really just a hot street version with the base engine. The weekend track rat is the Z06.
The fast that a warmed over base Stingray can run with the super cars is just a very good example of how far the American cars have come. The mustang was right in there as is the Camaro. The 2017 SS1LE with 455bhp was 4 seconds off the NSX’s pace but the new Camaro ZL1 with 640bhp & 200 less pounds than the SS1LE should fly.The old Corvette track special ZL1 is #4 on the historical list @ 4 seconds behind the million dollar #1 Porsche 918 Spyder.
The new ZL with 60 more horsepower and 84 lb-ft more torque, better aero, suspension, brakes & tires will have a legitimate shot at #1. ,
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10-28-2016, 12:28 PM
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The GS is a track prepped car, make no mistake about that. The only notable thing missing versus the Z06 is the engine. It's designed for those that want a corvette ready for the track, but don't want to spend that much on a Z06.
With that said, there's no doubt these GS, GT350R, and Camaro SS/ZL1 are fast track cars.
The new NSX, like the old NSX, wasn't designed to be spectacular with numbers. The engineering lead said that before and after the launch of the NSX. He made it very clear what the intention of the base NSX is.
If you look at the original NSX, it was also slower than the ZR-1, 911 Carrera 2 964, and Lotus Espirit. It was only faster than the 348. But then, the 348 was one of the not-so-well received Ferraris....
With that said, there's no doubt these GS, GT350R, and Camaro SS/ZL1 are fast track cars.
The new NSX, like the old NSX, wasn't designed to be spectacular with numbers. The engineering lead said that before and after the launch of the NSX. He made it very clear what the intention of the base NSX is.
If you look at the original NSX, it was also slower than the ZR-1, 911 Carrera 2 964, and Lotus Espirit. It was only faster than the 348. But then, the 348 was one of the not-so-well received Ferraris....