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Honda really loves selling vanilla cars.
its what they are best at.
they are likely not going to alienate their current customer base and further damage sales by catering to a few enthusiast.
This may be the case, generally speaking, however Honda does still sell the Accord with a 6 cylinder and MT powertrain - which seems to appeal to many of the enthusiasts out there who are also family people. So while it's not a flashy GT type car - it fits a niche that seems to work well if you read stuff from them on the Accord forum.
This may be the case, generally speaking, however Honda does still sell the Accord with a 6 cylinder and MT powertrain - which seems to appeal to many of the enthusiasts out there who are also family people. So while it's not a flashy GT type car - it fits a niche that seems to work well if you read stuff from them on the Accord forum.
its still a vanilla sedan..........
what I meant by enthusiast is the; V, AMG, M, cars.
Honda WILL never do a performance division because they are content on selling vanilla sedans and trucks.
This may be the case, generally speaking, however Honda does still sell the Accord with a 6 cylinder and MT powertrain - which seems to appeal to many of the enthusiasts out there who are also family people.
But not in a sedan. That V6 6MT combo is only available on the coupe. A coupe doesn't really work well for most "family people" (i.e. people with babies/toddlers).
But not in a sedan. That V6 6MT combo is only available on the coupe. A coupe doesn't really work well for most "family people" (i.e. people with babies/toddlers).
Saw one of these red "GT" packaged '17s sitting on the showroom floor. Not my cup of tea stylistically, though fairly well executed with well fitting pieces with a nice rubber filler along the edges. But still looks bolt-on and cheapy. And fwiw, it's spoiler wasn't sticking down properly either... Not pic worthy IMO.
What DID look GREAT on that showroom floor was the juxtaposition of a white '17 NSX, and mint looking 1991 black NSX with 50K miles. SWEEEET!!
Meh on the wheels but in primo shape....if I had an extra 50k laying around ....
its still a vanilla sedan..........
what I meant by enthusiast is the; V, AMG, M, cars.
Honda WILL never do a performance division because they are content on selling vanilla sedans and trucks.
Sadly true. Acura should try a little and go for vanilla fudge, cherry vanilla, strawberry vanilla, chocolate chip, and ooh la la, French vanilla.
Not so fast, my friend. I think there is definitely a draw from enthusiasts to "vanilla cars with soul". You can drive your V/AMG/M every day if you want, but most of the time, it's overkill/you don't want to get it dirty/you want a low profile/you're afraid your kid is going to puke on your stone grey interior. I drive a TSX to work most days for the reasons I listed above (my commute is all of 7 minutes). It's a fun, reliable, vanilla car that is actually pretty fun to drive. Compared to the other cars in its class, the Accord is considerably more fun to drive outside of maybe the Mazda 6 (but that has the engine out of a moped). It's certainly a better steer than a Camry, Sonata, Optima, or Legacy. My biggest knock against it is that it's too big. This is where the market is bleak though and where I really wanted the TLX to work. If the TSX died tomorrow, I'd probably choose between an Accord and a WRX. The Accord is bigger than I need and the WRX's interior is still just one notch above the manager's special at Avis. Honda can certainly be successful by selling the car the enthusiast drives when the V/AMG/M is in the garage. The TLX could probably be that without too much effort. Call it a sport edition, it doesn't even have to be a type-s. Get rid of some gears, put some more feedback in the steering, cut down the sound deadening so it doesnt feel like driving an ES, and change the throttle response. The TLX isn't an awful car. People just try to compare it to a class of cars that it isn't trying to compete with. Yes, I know, the 2G and 3G people had their days of blowing by every non S/M/AMG in their class, but the era of "german 6s are underpowered" is over and it's not coming back.
Originally Posted by justnspace
its still a vanilla sedan..........
what I meant by enthusiast is the; V, AMG, M, cars.
Honda WILL never do a performance division because they are content on selling vanilla sedans and trucks.
Not so fast, my friend. I think there is definitely a draw from enthusiasts to "vanilla cars with soul". You can drive your V/AMG/M every day if you want, but most of the time, it's overkill/you don't want to get it dirty/you want a low profile/you're afraid your kid is going to puke on your stone grey interior. I drive a TSX to work most days for the reasons I listed above (my commute is all of 7 minutes). It's a fun, reliable, vanilla car that is actually pretty fun to drive. Compared to the other cars in its class, the Accord is considerably more fun to drive outside of maybe the Mazda 6 (but that has the engine out of a moped). It's certainly a better steer than a Camry, Sonata, Optima, or Legacy. My biggest knock against it is that it's too big. This is where the market is bleak though and where I really wanted the TLX to work. If the TSX died tomorrow, I'd probably choose between an Accord and a WRX. The Accord is bigger than I need and the WRX's interior is still just one notch above the manager's special at Avis. Honda can certainly be successful by selling the car the enthusiast drives when the V/AMG/M is in the garage. The TLX could probably be that without too much effort. Call it a sport edition, it doesn't even have to be a type-s. Get rid of some gears, put some more feedback in the steering, cut down the sound deadening so it doesnt feel like driving an ES, and change the throttle response. The TLX isn't an awful car. People just try to compare it to a class of cars that it isn't trying to compete with. Yes, I know, the 2G and 3G people had their days of blowing by every non S/M/AMG in their class, but the era of "german 6s are underpowered" is over and it's not coming back.
red stitching and tacked on body kits do not make a car sportier or more enthusiast-like....
Acura has to do something MORE than "special editions"
thats the point im trying to make!
you can dress up poopoo with red stitching and tacked on body kits....but it will still be poopoo
red stitching and tacked on body kits do not make a car sportier or more enthusiast-like....
Acura has to do something MORE than "special editions"
thats the point im trying to make!
you can dress up poopoo with red stitching and tacked on body kits....but it will still be poopoo
I am with all of you guys....Why can't Acura develop a sport division like all other brands? It wouldn't be that difficult and would so well received by those willing to pay more to get some excitement!
They probably had that in min back in 2008 but then they cancelled a bunch of programs in 2009/2010.
May be they are revisiting the idea of having a sport division again now?
With that said, right now, there's nothing in the Honda parts bin that makes over 500hp. The only exception is the NSX. However, the NSX uses a bespoke race-car engine which is super expensive to make (i.e. can't really put it in a $80k sports sedan). I wonder how difficult it is to make a dumbed down version of that engine.
They probably had that in min back in 2008 but then they cancelled a bunch of programs in 2009/2010.
May be they are revisiting the idea of having a sport division again now?
With that said, right now, there's nothing in the Honda parts bin that makes over 500hp. The only exception is the NSX. However, the NSX uses a bespoke race-car engine which is super expensive to make (i.e. can't really put it in a $80k sports sedan). I wonder how difficult it is to make a dumbed down version of that engine.
the civic type-R's engine is probably more feasible than trying to dumb down the cosworth engine.
SHAWD + 2.0 turbo pushing 330-400hp and some suspension tuning would be great in my book, and would push me to buy another honda
I'd say reliability would go out the window... pretty quick.
Mercedes had/has enough issues with their 2.0T that was putting out 360hp. That is a lot of boost and waaaaaaaaaaaay past Honda's conservative safety margins.
Plus, that much power out of 2.0T... there will be some ungodly low end turbo lag... and it won't make those numbers until very high in the RPM range. For a car like the CTR, that makes sense. It's made to stay in the high RPM range... it's 0-60 times aren't even that good. But for a TLX? It's still supposed to be a sedan with creature comforts, not a screaming track car.
I think a 2.8-3.0T V6 would make way more sense, would need much less boost for such numbers and would be long term reliable.
I thought Honda/Acura had one more engine to release still, did they not? a V6T would make so much sense and could be used in so many different vehicles.
True, but.... that's because they are NA and that's the only way to get peak power out of them... just rev them to the moon. There is no other option for NA, besides adding displacement and/or cylinders, which is against their ideologies.
But having an FI option... there's no need to go that route. For a Type S TLX, I'd prefer more grunt down low. I'm willing to bet that 49 out of every 50 TLX-S sold would never see a track... just city driving... so it makes more sense to give them that power much earlier in the rpm band.
And also, if Ford can do a V6TT in many of there cars, I'm sure Honda/Acura can do a V6T and plop that engine into the RLX, TLX, MDX and RDX... just have different tunes on them, to get varying levels of power that they're looking for.
Oh I have tons of patience... especially since I switched to another automotive brand altogether now, after the decade of shit Acura and Honda have both put me through.
That's pretty smart of you. Sitting out with another auto brand, rather than waiting and waiting and waiting forever for something big to come out from Acura.
While a typical Honda engine makes its peak hp pretty high up, the torque curve is usually quite flat.
But ya...a 2.0T 350hp TLX...probably won't blow up, but will have way too much turbo lag. And even at 350hp, that's nowhere near 500hp that AMG's and M's make....
From what I've heard, Honda is working on a 3.0T V6 but who knows when that is ready. Ideally, that should be good for 450hp for the highest tune, and combine that with eSH-AWD,then we will have something very interesting.
FWIW it took me 18.5PSI on 96/97 octane to get 400+WHP out of 3 liters. Normal factory boost for these engines was 10/11PSI on 91/93 octane. There is quite a bit more engineering & beefing up on parts in going from NA to FI than a lot of people think. That's why 500HP 3 liter engines are pretty rare or are in Supercars that can return a profit with a bucks up engine.
Yup. The 3.0T engine in the M3/M4 has 19psi to make 430hp or so. To do that, it has a close deck design. It also has things like lightweight pistons and forged steel crankshaft to reduce rotational mass and enable the engine to rev to 7600rpm.
Yup. The 3.0T engine in the M3/M4 has 19psi to make 430hp or so. To do that, it has a close deck design. It also has things like lightweight pistons and forged steel crankshaft to reduce rotational mass and enable the engine to rev to 7600rpm.
Yeah, but they only really did that because all the old-school NA M lovers need their revs. The S55 is already making peak HP by 5500-6000 rpms. In my experience, it's not really any faster at 19psi than the N54 is.... if you don't account for a dual clutch on the M. Having 19psi with a warranty sure is nice though. What Acura really needs to consider with this idea is the tranny. It needs a proper dual clutch. A stick would be nice too, but no traditional automatics please. I know, I know, "chevy's automatic shifts almost as fast as 911 turbo", great, fantastic for them. Do a real dual clutch anyway. None of this "the v6 is too strong for our dual clutch" nonsense. If Acura puts 400hp in this car, gives it awd, and puts an autotragic in it, it'll basically be a Q50 red sport. The red sport is a bargain for sure, but it's a steering rack and a dual clutch away from being an m3/m4 fighter and a GTR-lite. Acura needn't cut the same corners.
jealous of your AP1 by the way. Always wanted one, but I cant drive it for more than 20 minutes without getting a leg cramp. My i'll fit in it better after we buy it and mount a bucket seat to the floor" argument always gets greeted with eyerolls. One of these days though...
Last edited by TheAcAvenger; 11-02-2016 at 02:14 PM.
FWIW it took me 18.5PSI on 96/97 octane to get 400+WHP out of 3 liters. Normal factory boost for these engines was 10/11PSI on 91/93 octane. There is quite a bit more engineering & beefing up on parts in going from NA to FI than a lot of people think. That's why 500HP 3 liter engines are pretty rare or are in Supercars that can return a profit with a bucks up engine.
400whp, if going through AWD is like 480 at the crank. No one is asking for that much power.
Also, there are hundreds of boosted VQ37s pushing 8-10psi, on stock internals, safely making anywhere from 450-500whp on a RWD platform.
400whp, if going through AWD is like 480 at the crank. No one is asking for that much power.
Also, there are hundreds of boosted VQ37s pushing 8-10psi, on stock internals, safely making anywhere from 450-500whp on a RWD platform.
.
A VQ37 is3.7 liters not 3 liters. Would take less boost to get the power. 10 PSI is normal boost for a 3.0 so it not inconceivable that increasing an engines size by 1/3 would yield good power with 10PSI.
There are any number of 3.0 N54/55 & B58 3.0 liter engines making 500+WHP, thing is they are doing it on 23/25PSI.
You missed my point on the VQ37. Yes, I know it is 3.7L worth of displacement. What I meant was that a stock NA engine can have up to 10 psi of boost without issue, as long as the tune is really good. You don't have to build up the engine to handle a low dose of boost, reliably.
Also, a 3.0 is not 1/3 smaller than a 3.7.
Finally, a 3.0 pushing 10 psi of boost will net great numbers for a straight-from-manufacturer car. You can easily attain 350whp from that without needing to build the block and still be safe all around. Granted, auto makers do like their factors of safety and they likely would beef up something here and there, but they don't necessarily have to build a short block able of handling 500HP right out the gate.
Yeah, but they only really did that because all the old-school NA M lovers need their revs. The S55 is already making peak HP by 5500-6000 rpms. In my experience, it's not really any faster at 19psi than the N54 is.... if you don't account for a dual clutch on the M. Having 19psi with a warranty sure is nice though. What Acura really needs to consider with this idea is the tranny. It needs a proper dual clutch. A stick would be nice too, but no traditional automatics please. I know, I know, "chevy's automatic shifts almost as fast as 911 turbo", great, fantastic for them. Do a real dual clutch anyway. None of this "the v6 is too strong for our dual clutch" nonsense. If Acura puts 400hp in this car, gives it awd, and puts an autotragic in it, it'll basically be a Q50 red sport. The red sport is a bargain for sure, but it's a steering rack and a dual clutch away from being an m3/m4 fighter and a GTR-lite. Acura needn't cut the same corners.
jealous of your AP1 by the way. Always wanted one, but I cant drive it for more than 20 minutes without getting a leg cramp. My i'll fit in it better after we buy it and mount a bucket seat to the floor" argument always gets greeted with eyerolls. One of these days though...
For sure. But it's still someway below the previous M3's redline. What was it again? 8400rpm?
Honda seems to know how to build a propert dual clutch now. The 9DCT in the NSX has been praised a lot for its fast response and smoothness. But it's smooth probably because the electric motor can "absorb" the jerkiness.
You must be a pretty tall dude lol...yes the AP1 is very fun to drive! I see that you had a 02 TL-S and 05 RL. I also had a 02 TL-S and always wanted a 2G RL...
You missed my point on the VQ37. Yes, I know it is 3.7L worth of displacement. What I meant was that a stock NA engine can have up to 10 psi of boost without issue, as long as the tune is really good. You don't have to build up the engine to handle a low dose of boost, reliably.
Also, a 3.0 is not 1/3 smaller than a 3.7.
Finally, a 3.0 pushing 10 psi of boost will net great numbers for a straight-from-manufacturer car. You can easily attain 350whp from that without needing to build the block and still be safe all around. Granted, auto makers do like their factors of safety and they likely would beef up something here and there, but they don't necessarily have to build a short block able of handling 500HP right out the gate.
I understood it, just did not agree with it.
Don't really think they are going to put a 5 year 50K warranty on the existing block with it running 10 PSI. I might add that much boost, you might add that much boost & not worry about it but I can't see a conservative company like HONDA doing it without redoing the block & internals. A two stage build up with all the required engineering, retooling & government mandated testing testing would cost too much to do it twice.
I did not say it was 1/3 larger I said if you increase it by 1/3. I just rounded so I did not have to run the numbers. An 1/3 increase would be about 3972cc & 3997cc. 3972cc is 25% larger than the N54/55 & 3997cc is 25% larger than the B58.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 11-03-2016 at 02:34 AM.
Don't really think they are going to put a 5 year 50K warranty on the existing block with it running 10 PSI. I might add that much boost, you might add that much boost & not worry about it but I can't see a conservative company like HONDA doing it without redoing the block & internals. A two stage build up with all the required engineering, retooling & government mandated testing testing would cost too much to do it twice.
I did not say it was 1/3 larger I said if you increase it by 1/3. I just rounded so I did not have to run the numbers. An 1/3 increase would be about 3972cc & 3997cc. 3972cc is 25% larger than the N54/55 & 3997cc is 25% larger than the B58.
IIRC the old supercharger kits for the 3G did 3/4PSI (?). Not sure how much the block changed going to the current version.
Acura doesn't need to make a M/AMG competitor yet.. They need to make a 340i Msport/C43/S4 competitor. Even the 330i is faster then the top of the line SHAWD V6 TLX "performance sedan".
Acura doesn't need to make a M/AMG competitor yet.. They need to make a 340i Msport/C43/S4 competitor. Even the 330i is faster then the top of the line SHAWD V6 TLX "performance sedan".
Acura needs a turbo engine in it's lineup urgently to remain competitive. Making bigger NA engines is no longer an option, just look at the TL's old 3.7l engine which had a bit of a problem with oil consumption. Smaller, better, faster is the way to go ... including adding some carbon fiber to the mix. The TLX was a right step in getting it lighter, but more can always be done
Acura doesn't need to make a M/AMG competitor yet.. They need to make a 340i Msport/C43/S4 competitor. Even the 330i is faster then the top of the line SHAWD V6 TLX "performance sedan".
Agreed that Acura needs a 340i Msport/C43/S4 competitor more so than a M/AMG competitor.
With that said, the 330i is faster than the top of the line SHAWD V6 TLX "performance sedan" statement can be applied to the likes of IS350 and CTS 3.6 too.
With that said, the 330i is faster than the top of the line SHAWD V6 TLX "performance sedan" statement can be applied to the likes of IS350 and CTS 3.6 too.
To sum it up, "turbo V6" > "naturally-apirated V6" no matter build with how many state of the art gadgets such as DOHC, VTEC, i-VTEC, DI, etc....
10-27-2016, 10:20 AM
SWEEEET!!
