stogie1020

Louder, excellent advice. I will talk to the wife about it again. We discussed it a while back but naturally, it went by the wayside once we were in the thick of things.

1Louder

The revelation to me was when the counselor pointed out that we were really dealing with something on the spectrum of a clinical illness. But you know, he lived his whole life as a functioning adult, raised a family, and is otherwise perfectly capable. But the narcissism, rage and anxiety were not just "personality quirks" or that he was a difficult person to live with. We were way out of our depth in dealing with it.

Not to imply your FIL is that extreme of course, but it just sounds to me like he has some dysfunctional, repeatable, life-long habits that might be something more than meets the eye. Things aren't perfect or "fixed", but they are 10x better than they were 18 months ago.

stogie1020

Good to know you were able to achieve some results.

I will be the FIRST person to tell you that my FIL has some level of mental illness. Even Mrs. Stogie believes it. 10 minutes after meeting the guy you would probably know it, too. However, like you said, he is in his early 60, has led a life that did not involve homelessness (barely) and can be socially normal (well, kind of) so it's only apparent when you really start talking to him how he is.

At my insistence, the FIL is a part of our lives. I thought I would be able to have more success getting him to a level of self sufficiency, but I am seeing now that was a little too prideful of a hope in terms of being a positive influence on him. However, he will always be a part of our lives and I need to know I do (and did) everything I could to help him, even if that means the wife and I go to a counselor to learn how to better deal with him.

oo7spy

I second Louder's advice about a counselor. My mom sought counseling for years privately and through Al-anon to learn coping mechanisms to live with my Dad. (The Al-anon wasn't for her drinking.)

Do you know how your FIL grew up? There is a psychological theory out there that will people will consciously or unconsciously behave in a manner that leads to what they feel is "normal", even if that state is harmful. For instance, someone who grew up being belittled and never complimented will sometimes tend to behave rudely so that people will lash out, their insecurities will be validated, and they will experience their normal feeling of shame. Maybe your FIL was always told he was a failure or was never encouraged to strive beyond mediocrity, and that feeling of messing up or being held back is his "normal". While one would think the feeling of success would be undeniable, it can be scary for someone who has never experienced it.

The thing that would upset me the most is his lack of accountability. When I was a senior in HS, I had to interview someone I looked up to and chose my grandfather. He was talking about suffering and his freshman year in the Corp of Cadets at TAMU. One thing he stressed was how they demanded accountability. If you are late to class, it doesn't matter if there was an accident that shut down the highway. You could have left earlier. There is almost always something you could have done differently to avoid failure, and the sooner you accept that instead of deflecting the blame onto others, the sooner you will quit failing.

Is it too late to send him off to the army?

stogie1020

Very interesting thought on his "normal"... Will have to think about it a little.

Funny thing is, he went to military school as a teen.

oo7spy

I was thinking a little more about why someone might avoid success, and one answer I can come up with is along the lines of your "path of least resistance" observation. When you have succeeded, you are generally left with some form of responsibility. If he succeeds in finding an apartment, he has a monthly rent payment to uphold. If he succeeds in finding a job, he has job requirements to uphold. However, if he fails, he has nothing to lose.

stogie1020

Interesting perspective, and I think it fits the narrative. He has trained himself to have a little responsibility as possible, and avoids ALL issues that require effort.

As an example, while in FL, he had a dispute with the cable company over his bill (most likely his fault). As a result, he told them he was not going to pay it, and then stopped paying ANY cable bill until it resolved itself. Obviously, it didn't "resolve itself", but rather than either talk to the cable company and reach an agreement or accept responsibility and pay it, he just wanted to wait until it "went away". It was easier, less effort. Honestly, I don't know that he ever took care of it before leaving...

Doom878

He's probably in collections

stogie1020

Honestly, this one was the LEAST of his worries...

I intentionally have not probed into his finances. We made a budget spreadsheet for him and intentionally left a few blank cells for him to fill in various debts. I am sure he will go to the grave with massive CC, etc. debts... His bed, he made it.

1StGenCL

He sounds like a millennial...

I feel for you man, I can't imagine living with my mom but her case is a bit different and like 1Louder said, I didn't realize it until counseling; yes, counseling. I was against it but after a few sessions, I too realized that while my mom and our relationship appears great, it's not healthy and I thought it was normal (well close). She relies on my sister and I as basically her partner but clearly, we are not. I had one of my best years this year (money wise), which afforded my wife a 6 month no work and ride her horses all day break but my mom will still clear almost $200k more than me and I know my sister and I will be in the exact same situation as you; taking care of her. She thinks my sister and I are calling her stupid all the time and at a certain point, I think she just wants to be unhappy, which I don't understand. Point being, I feel your pain and see many similarities. Whether he makes money or not, you are going to end up taking care of him if things keep going this way.

Just a few sessions of counseling made me see how unhealthy things are and how much stress it puts on my marriage. I believe I posted it before but you HAVE to put our marriage first or your marriage will suffer. While I am a little bit younger, I remember your wedding pic that someone (probably pink puppy) photoshopped so I think I was married relatively close to you and it's tough, family only makes it harder. You need to prep both yourself and your wife for the FIL separation that will happen because while I hope it works out with him, it doesn't look good; counseling will show the wife it isn't you (obviously) and help her not get as upset.

Get lube, tell your wife you want to try counseling, go to counseling, spread lube all over your A, bend over and take the $150 plus they charge per session and gain a happier marriage. Then explain the last sentence to the wife and how you had to do it, hand her the lube; finally, you win

1Louder

This is an excellent point. The mistake we made with my FIL was trying to engage him in a way where normal rules apply. If we do X, then the logical outcome should be Y. If we address his basic needs, his behavior will improve out of gratitude. If we invest more time and attention, he won't be so angry. If we coach and mentor, we'll see better behavior.

The fallacy is there are no "normal" rules if they have complicated behavioral issues. Normal cause-effect relationships don't exist. And as you mentioned, what even seems "normal" can itself be skewed without the participants even realizing it, especially if it's how you grew up.

stogie1020

I appreciate it, and yes the first "lube session" is already on the books in the next few weeks. Our insurance covers it, so the copay shouldn't be too much...

Luckily, the wife doesn't blame me at all (that I know if). She blames herself a lot, and I want to address that for her sake.

stogie1020

This.

I couldn't have said it better. We keep thinking WE are crazy when things go haywire for him or he spouts off about how he thought something through and came to a conclusion that wife and I both are like "WTF? No one in their right mind would pick that choice."

What we are realizing, and you aptly pointed out, is that he is NOT in his right mind, and trying to apply normal logic to him is OUR problem. I assumed that if I could show him that a little hard work toward a goal paid off a little bit, he would naturally learn that hard work pays off toward all goals. Nope. Square one. Every. Damn. Time. In fact, standing on square one, looking backwards, with his shoelaces tied to each other, holding a jelly doughnut, in desperate need of a belt. Long term planning? Same result.

Funny story: This weekend he was talking about electric bill fluctuation in the summer/winter and he told me that when he was in FL, he would pay $30 more than his electric bill was for most of the year so that in the summer the credits would be there and he wouldn't have to write as big a check for July or August. He was proud, as though he and Warren Buffet were having lunch together later that day.

In terms of supporting him, we are coming to the realization that he is not going to be self sufficient in the long term. There is no way he can earn enough in the final 5-10 years of his work-life to support himself. However, we are not going to support him. He made his choices. We are planning to have kids, etc and THEY will be the priority. He will go on food stamps (again), use Medicare until he needs long term care and then go on Medicaid. He finally got his health insurance squared away so he has coverage for 2016 ($230/mo) and that also is his responsibility.

Neither the wife nor I make enough to support him the way he thinks he should be living (nor are we willing to work ourselves harder to make that happen). He has a deadline for finding an apartment, and while I know he may go over the deadline a bit (because he can't plan anything) he will be out and in his own place and he will get settled into his own routine.

stogie1020

Time for an update.

Wife and I went to our counselling session, and overall I think it was helpful. Mostly for her, as I think it really benefited her to hear what I had been saying, but from a professional. Ultimately, it was good for the wife to hear that she is not going to change her dad into a normal person who thinks rationally, and she has to accept that.

About a week after the counselling, she became much more pragmatic regarding the whole situation. She still has a little trouble picking her battles, but she is getting better.

AND..................


Today is the FIL's move out day! He found an apartment and signed a lease! No co-signing necessary on our part apparently.

Last week we went to Ikea and he picked out a bunch of furniture, bought it and tonight we move it to the new place. He has a guy from CL coming tomorrow to put it all together for him (I offered to do the easy few items tonight).

As soon as he had the apartment and could see the light at the end of the tunnel, his outlook picked up considerably and he seems much happier. Knowing he is about to be able to set his own schedule, have his own routine and generally settle into his life must be very comforting after the upheaval of moving and living with us.

At the end of the day, I am VERY happy with both the outcome for the FIL and more importantly the outcome for the wifey. EVERYONE, including her mom (FIL's ex) told her she would fail at this, and she didn't. This morning I pulled her out of her normal routine to point out to her how successful she had been and I think she really got it.

Will there be new and significant issues with the FIL? Probably. But at least he is close to us and has a good life and outlook.



Oh, and I FINALLY GET MY HOUSE BACK!!!!!!

NBP04TL4ME

Congrats stogie -

cu2wagon

That right there is a major victory!

Congrats to you and the wife. I hope the FIL keeps his shit together and keeps your stress to a minimum.

1StGenCL

Congrats, get to making that baby

1Louder

Great news all around!!

And the more equipped your wife feels, the better she'll be and the better you'll be too.

oo7spy

Strong the persistence is.

stogie1020

I will say, though, the move out was not terribly smooth.

The FIL is a dirty/messy guy. Like, really bad. Pigpen from Charlie Brown would be jealous. In the four months he was here, he might have washed the sheets on the bed once. Maybe. The wife showed him how to run the washer, etc... She also showed him how to clean the bathroom that was his, how to sweep up his room and the bathroom, etc.

He did none of these things.

So, when he moved out, Wifey and I spent several hours cleaning up after him. He never even offered. Didn't even strip the bed. Wifey was furious she had to clean his foul toilet (the guy gave up aiming a long time ago). She scrubbed the shower/tub because he never did it. Not once.

And the kicker... He never, even in the slightest way, said "thanks for making my life a thousand times better and for letting me stay with you in your home for 4 months."

Now, I didn't really expect anything, but Wifey is pretty hurt. She has had little to no support from her brother and it's been really tough for her and required a LOT of time and energy. We were going to do a few nice things for him and his new apartment but she cancelled that after she scrubbed the toilet.

I am going to call him in the next day or two and tell him he needs to call Wifey and surprise her and take her out to lunch and sincerely thank her for helping him. She won't know I gave him the idea, and I think it will settle some anger in her and show him how important this is.

NBP04TL4ME

^^^^ Ugh. Hopefully your FIL, will take your advice and take his daughter out for lunch and thank her. Are you prepared or have you thought about next steps if he disagrees with your idea?

thoiboi

Family is always rough... There are so many times you just want to strangle them but then realize that at the end of the day, they're the only constant in your life and typically when shit hits the fan for you, they're the first ones in line to help out (when possible).

Hoping for more good news for ya!

stogie1020

Honestly, I don't think he will resist.

a month or two ago he sent Wifey a pretty nasty text in response to us asking about something he was dragging his feet on. He came home and I called him out on it right in front of Wifey and basically told him that there were only two people in the world trying to help him and they were both in the room with him, and that he was making his own daughter feel like shit for trying to help him. He apologized and made efforts to rectify the situation with her for a short while.

Part of the underlying problem is that he wishes things were the way they were prior to him moving. He fails to realize that his house was falling apart, he had no health insurance, no job, no car, no money, no air conditioning in Florida, etc. I think he resents us for the "change" we pointed out needed to happen and therefore takes it out on us whenever he can. These little things like leaving the house a mess are either (a) his obliviousness to how filthy he is or (b) his little ways of biting the hand that feeds him.

1StGenCL

Seems like he'll come around for lunch but I think you hit the nail on the head, looking back he thinks he had the perfect life and you two ruined it (we know this is hardly the case but...)

:inbeforestogiepaysforonelastlunchwithhis"wifey"an dFIL:

Doom878

Good shit. Honestly I didn't see him moving out. You're a better man than I. I wonder if your bro-in-law will see his progress and come around. Now get ready to stay on top of him to stay on his bills.

stogie1020

Talk about "can't see the forest for the trees"...

stogie1020

Thanks. The BIL is too much like the FIL to ever see what has actually happened or how hard it was for Wifey. Lost cause, we really tried to involve him, too. He is a piece of work himself and I have no plans to try to work on that one...

oo7spy

Sometimes. YMMV.

NBP04TL4ME

You choose your friends and not so much your family.

stogie1020

Well, FIL gave the Wifey a small but thoughtful gift for her B-Day, so I am going to hold off on the request he take her out to lunch for a few weeks.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

great work stogie...

stogie1020

Thanks. It will be an ongoing project for a lifetime, but I think it was worth it for everyone.

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

Can we all collectively ordain Stogie as a Saint yet?

Doom878

St Stogie has a nice ring to it.

cu2wagon

St-Stogie?

Sounds like a st-st-stutter.

stogie1020

Hell no...

oo7spy

Embrace it.

stogie1020

Just an update...

FIL was feeling really crappy for a few weeks (that he admits to, I think it was longer), finally went to the Dr and found out he had two hernias. Dragged his feet to get them fixed but finally had the surgery. We helped him out for a few days, wifey stayed overnight with him the night after the procedure. Fast forward a week and I was saying to the wifey that I wonder how long it will be until he reluctantly goes back to his job. To my surprise, he had already put himself on the schedule, sooner that I would have recommended, and went back about a 7 days after the surgery.

I am sure part of his hurry is the need to pay the several thousand dollars for the procedure (his 1/3rd), but I was just overall pleased he didn't see this as a reason to "not be able to work again" which is where I thought it was headed.

oo7spy

I need to get my (2nd) hernia fixed. Going on 1.5 years now.

stogie1020

Ouch... His were pretty debilitating (apparently) so it wasn't really an question. Although, I think he may have had them for a long time and not really said anything about them, so maybe he had them for a while...