What makes the car "tossable"?
05-07-2015, 10:56 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
What makes the car "tossable"?
So right now I am driving an 07 S2000 and an 07 TL-S 6spd
Taking both cars on twisty country back roads made me think of the question in the subject line.
Can I turn the TL-S into a tossable car (similar to the S2000)? What kind of modifications and $$$$ will it take?
Am I better off buying something like a civic SI to get that "tossable" feeling? What other used cars with a back seat (sedan or coupe) that will give you this?
Please discuss
Taking both cars on twisty country back roads made me think of the question in the subject line.
Can I turn the TL-S into a tossable car (similar to the S2000)? What kind of modifications and $$$$ will it take?
Am I better off buying something like a civic SI to get that "tossable" feeling? What other used cars with a back seat (sedan or coupe) that will give you this?
Please discuss
05-07-2015, 11:04 AM
#2
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
A lightweight sportscar.
S2K/Miata/BRZ/etc.
There are a lot of factors involved in it.
Making your TL-S "tossable" is possible but will require some major $$$$. What's the point of it, you know?
S2K/Miata/BRZ/etc.
There are a lot of factors involved in it.
Making your TL-S "tossable" is possible but will require some major $$$$. What's the point of it, you know?
Last edited by JS + XES; 05-07-2015 at 11:06 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by JS + XES:
Costco (05-07-2015),
justnspace (05-07-2015)
The following 8 users liked this post by justnspace:
Costco (05-07-2015),
crazyasiantl (05-07-2015),
JS + XES (05-07-2015),
juniorbean (05-07-2015),
Ken1997TL (05-07-2015),
and 3 others liked this post.
05-07-2015, 11:15 AM
#4
Senior Moderator
Salad tossing? 
The following 2 users liked this post by thoiboi:
CocheseUGA (05-07-2015),
Mr. Maker (05-07-2015)
05-07-2015, 11:44 AM
#5
Trolling Canuckistan
Weight and distribution of said weight. Go drive a Lotus Elise, a Porsche Boxster/Cayman, or a Toyota MR2, they're all light and the majority of the weight between the front and rear wheels. You can make your TL handle better but you can't make it into a real sports car.
05-07-2015, 11:57 AM
#6
To me the steering makes it tossable
We have had in past :
na, msm, nc2 miata
Ap1 s2000
1993 mr2 turbo
Currently Elise and 07 rio yellow s2000
For me in addition to lightness steering feel is most imp
My Elise makes my stook feel like a Camry
My stook makes my tsx wagon feel like an Avalon
It's all relative to your personal preferences
I have friends who think a gtr is tossable and others who think Elise is horrible grandpa car now that they own an atom
We have had in past :
na, msm, nc2 miata
Ap1 s2000
1993 mr2 turbo
Currently Elise and 07 rio yellow s2000
For me in addition to lightness steering feel is most imp
My Elise makes my stook feel like a Camry
My stook makes my tsx wagon feel like an Avalon
It's all relative to your personal preferences
I have friends who think a gtr is tossable and others who think Elise is horrible grandpa car now that they own an atom
05-07-2015, 12:04 PM
#7
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Whenever I drive my wife's A4 Avant, it puts me into sleep. It feels so numb and indirect compared to my car. My BRZ has spoiled me. 
Our Avant has the sports package too. It's about an inch lower than the non-sport model and has firmer dampers I believe.
Our Avant has the sports package too. It's about an inch lower than the non-sport model and has firmer dampers I believe.
Trending Topics
05-07-2015, 12:14 PM
#8
Turd Polisher
iTrader: (1)
Driving an S2000 compared to the TL-S should be a physics lesson in itself.
If the weight is low & the chassis is rigid, you will have a toss-able car.
Last edited by TylerT; 05-07-2015 at 12:16 PM.
05-07-2015, 12:32 PM
#9
A gt3rs owner picked up and brought his new Morgan 3 wheeler
05-07-2015, 01:22 PM
#10
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
05-07-2015, 02:05 PM
#11
All of us are too old to have Facebook
Just via email
3 911
2 m3
Morgan
2 atoms
2 Elise
1 exige
We do 6 am -9am. Home by 9:30 am , once a month
2 of these guys run the lotuscup with me . Rest does jacks track day at bwr
All white. I am the colored one. You can be 2nd colored one
Just via email
3 911
2 m3
Morgan
2 atoms
2 Elise
1 exige
We do 6 am -9am. Home by 9:30 am , once a month
2 of these guys run the lotuscup with me . Rest does jacks track day at bwr
All white. I am the colored one. You can be 2nd colored one
05-07-2015, 02:14 PM
#12
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
PMing you my email addy. lol
The following users liked this post:
justnspace (05-08-2015)
05-07-2015, 04:31 PM
#14
Jons too busy to respond these days , he's busy getting his salad tossed by vossen crew
The following users liked this post:
justnspace (05-08-2015)
05-07-2015, 04:48 PM
#15
Senior Moderator
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Better Neighborhood, Arizona
Posts: 45,634
Received 2,328 Likes
on
1,308 Posts
Hmm 60/40 (if lucky) FWD at 3600 pounds
vs. 50/50 RWD, limited slip, low roll center and 2850 pounds
vs. 50/50 RWD, limited slip, low roll center and 2850 pounds
The following 2 users liked this post by Ken1997TL:
justnspace (05-08-2015),
neuronbob (05-07-2015)
05-07-2015, 06:29 PM
#18
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
with ranch?
at poor JDMjon
The following users liked this post:
2012wagon (05-08-2015)
05-10-2015, 10:26 PM
#20
Team Owner
you can make your TL go faster, turn faster and with faster lap time, but it does not mean it will have the tossable feeling you get from a proper light weight sports car that was built for that tossable purpose.
05-11-2015, 01:34 PM
#21
Senior Moderator
Found your answer, OP.
05-11-2015, 01:55 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
Surprisingly very few intelligent answers to my question!!!!
I was not comparing both cars at all, nor implying that both should handle the same way either!!!!
The point of my question was "if the type S is modified, can it feel close to the nimbleness of the S2000?" what will it take? how much $$$$ wise?
why do that to the Type S you may ask? because it will still be a more reliable car vs an E36 M3 (3150 LBS) or an E46 M3 (3450 LBS) or any subaru STI (3200 LBS), etc.......
I was not comparing both cars at all, nor implying that both should handle the same way either!!!!
The point of my question was "if the type S is modified, can it feel close to the nimbleness of the S2000?" what will it take? how much $$$$ wise?
why do that to the Type S you may ask? because it will still be a more reliable car vs an E36 M3 (3150 LBS) or an E46 M3 (3450 LBS) or any subaru STI (3200 LBS), etc.......
05-11-2015, 02:01 PM
#23
^you're still trying to compare the TL with the S2000....
unless you can strip away the pounds, the TL wont ever feel as nimble as the S2k.
however; you can do some modifications to help the TL corner better, but it wont EVER be as nimble as the s2k unless you strip it.
you can lower it to help lower the center of gravity and reduce body roll.
(still wont make it as nimble as s2k)
you can add a larger rear sway bar to reduce body roll and to upset the natural understeer of the car
(still wont make it as nimble as s2k)
you can purchase sticky fat tires
(still wont make it as nimble as s2k)
unless you can strip away the pounds, the TL wont ever feel as nimble as the S2k.
however; you can do some modifications to help the TL corner better, but it wont EVER be as nimble as the s2k unless you strip it.
you can lower it to help lower the center of gravity and reduce body roll.
(still wont make it as nimble as s2k)
you can add a larger rear sway bar to reduce body roll and to upset the natural understeer of the car
(still wont make it as nimble as s2k)
you can purchase sticky fat tires
(still wont make it as nimble as s2k)
Last edited by justnspace; 05-11-2015 at 02:04 PM.
05-11-2015, 02:09 PM
#25
Senior Moderator
I think if you debadge your TL and put an s2000 badge on it, it'll make the TL more tossable
05-11-2015, 02:09 PM
#26
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
05-11-2015, 02:17 PM
#27
Team Owner
OP,
Your original question was how to make your TL tossable (similar to s2000). That itself is a comparison. There is nothing wrong with it, you need to have a benchmark otherwise how can you tell the difference.
But the answer is the tossable feeing you get from S2000, Miata and other proper RWD light weight 50/50 weight distribution cars is what the cars were built for.
Now you want to make your TL, which is completely different type of cars to have similar nimble tossable feeing is possible but it will probably cost what the car is worth and once it is done, it will not be daily driver or reliable.
But if you still insist:
You need to somehow to reduce about 800lbs
You need to somehow reconfigure your weight distribution to 50/50 (while keeping the weight down)
Retune your suspension
Retune your steering
Retune your drivetrain because it takes some magic to make FWD feeling like a RWD car.
Might have to adjust your wheelbase
Stiff up your chassis
lower the center gravity and seating positions
After all that, you will need to buy a new car to drive because the TL is no longer street legal.
Your original question was how to make your TL tossable (similar to s2000). That itself is a comparison. There is nothing wrong with it, you need to have a benchmark otherwise how can you tell the difference.
But the answer is the tossable feeing you get from S2000, Miata and other proper RWD light weight 50/50 weight distribution cars is what the cars were built for.
Now you want to make your TL, which is completely different type of cars to have similar nimble tossable feeing is possible but it will probably cost what the car is worth and once it is done, it will not be daily driver or reliable.
But if you still insist:
You need to somehow to reduce about 800lbs
You need to somehow reconfigure your weight distribution to 50/50 (while keeping the weight down)
Retune your suspension
Retune your steering
Retune your drivetrain because it takes some magic to make FWD feeling like a RWD car.
Might have to adjust your wheelbase
Stiff up your chassis
lower the center gravity and seating positions
After all that, you will need to buy a new car to drive because the TL is no longer street legal.
The following 2 users liked this post by oonowindoo:
justnspace (05-11-2015),
RPhilMan1 (05-12-2015)
05-11-2015, 02:22 PM
#28
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Surprisingly very few intelligent answers to my question!!!!
I was not comparing both cars at all, nor implying that both should handle the same way either!!!!
The point of my question was "if the type S is modified, can it feel close to the nimbleness of the S2000?" what will it take? how much $$$$ wise?
why do that to the Type S you may ask? because it will still be a more reliable car vs an E36 M3 (3150 LBS) or an E46 M3 (3450 LBS) or any subaru STI (3200 LBS), etc.......
I was not comparing both cars at all, nor implying that both should handle the same way either!!!!
The point of my question was "if the type S is modified, can it feel close to the nimbleness of the S2000?" what will it take? how much $$$$ wise?
why do that to the Type S you may ask? because it will still be a more reliable car vs an E36 M3 (3150 LBS) or an E46 M3 (3450 LBS) or any subaru STI (3200 LBS), etc.......
The following 2 users liked this post by JS + XES:
justnspace (05-11-2015),
RPhilMan1 (05-12-2015)
05-11-2015, 03:16 PM
#29
Surprisingly very few intelligent answers to my question!!!!
I was not comparing both cars at all, nor implying that both should handle the same way either!!!!
The point of my question was "if the type S is modified, can it feel close to the nimbleness of the S2000?" what will it take? how much $$$$ wise?
why do that to the Type S you may ask? because it will still be a more reliable car vs an E36 M3 (3150 LBS) or an E46 M3 (3450 LBS) or any subaru STI (3200 LBS), etc.......
I was not comparing both cars at all, nor implying that both should handle the same way either!!!!
The point of my question was "if the type S is modified, can it feel close to the nimbleness of the S2000?" what will it take? how much $$$$ wise?
why do that to the Type S you may ask? because it will still be a more reliable car vs an E36 M3 (3150 LBS) or an E46 M3 (3450 LBS) or any subaru STI (3200 LBS), etc.......
The TLS will never be in the same ballpark as an M3 or STI. You can do suspension and sways and whatever else, but it's just not engineered that way. Doing the suspension mods will make it handle better than stock... but it will not put it in the big leagues...
05-11-2015, 03:23 PM
#30
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Troll thread is obvious? 
05-11-2015, 03:25 PM
#31
Team Owner
I gave him the benefit of the doubt since he joined in 2007, 41 years old with NSX in his screen name?
05-11-2015, 03:34 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
The more weight you take off the car the more "tossable" it will feel within its limits, just don't forget that it's still a 4 door FWD sedan at the end of the day
You can def look at other cars. A coupe should be a better start, since it's usually lighter weight vs a 4 door, and can also have a stronger chassis. This comes at the cost of rear passenger's easibility to get in and out of the car. A civic vs a TL is apples to oranges. Ask yourself what kind of car do you want at the end of the day? A lightweight small low amenities type car with 2 doors or something mid size heavier and more loaded entry-luxury sedan?
05-11-2015, 03:43 PM
#33
Team Owner
i think for FWD cars, Mini Cooper is about as tossable as it gets.
05-11-2015, 04:10 PM
#36
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
.
The more weight you take off the car the more "tossable" it will feel within its limits, just don't forget that it's still a 4 door FWD sedan at the end of the day
You can def look at other cars. A coupe should be a better start, since it's usually lighter weight vs a 4 door, and can also have a stronger chassis. This comes at the cost of rear passenger's easibility to get in and out of the car. A civic vs a TL is apples to oranges. Ask yourself what kind of car do you want at the end of the day? A lightweight small low amenities type car with 2 doors or something mid size heavier and more loaded entry-luxury sedan?
The more weight you take off the car the more "tossable" it will feel within its limits, just don't forget that it's still a 4 door FWD sedan at the end of the day
You can def look at other cars. A coupe should be a better start, since it's usually lighter weight vs a 4 door, and can also have a stronger chassis. This comes at the cost of rear passenger's easibility to get in and out of the car. A civic vs a TL is apples to oranges. Ask yourself what kind of car do you want at the end of the day? A lightweight small low amenities type car with 2 doors or something mid size heavier and more loaded entry-luxury sedan?
I don't want to take the S2000 to the track yet.
I started driving courses this year and will do all the BMW driver training courses next month, so that I can know the basics before tracking my car
Thanks for your input
05-11-2015, 04:18 PM
#37
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 50
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
Being on this forum for a long time, I read some posts a while back on members who tracked their TL's and truly enjoyed it
I even remember some who completely eliminated the "heavy feel" doing some specific suspension modifications - they also eliminated under-steer completely and introduced just enough over-steer to make the car more fun.
I just don't have time to find these posts
Is that intelligent enough for you?
05-11-2015, 04:24 PM
#38
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Move thread to 3G TL suspension.. 
Honestly.. any sedan will feel like a boat compared to a s2k. The 3G TL, especially the Type-S, has great feel and response on the track. It can be improved, but what's the point for 5-6 times a year. Get your fix with the s2k.
Honestly.. any sedan will feel like a boat compared to a s2k. The 3G TL, especially the Type-S, has great feel and response on the track. It can be improved, but what's the point for 5-6 times a year. Get your fix with the s2k.
Last edited by Majofo; 05-11-2015 at 04:26 PM.
05-11-2015, 04:29 PM
#39
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
I think the problem might be somewhere between the steering wheel and the driver's seat. 
Although, Keiichi Tsuchiya is the best tosser around.
Although, Keiichi Tsuchiya is the best tosser around.
The following users liked this post:
RPhilMan1 (05-12-2015)
05-11-2015, 04:33 PM
#40
I guess I was trying to see if I can combine both in one car (relatively speaking) - a daily driver with amenities that you could enjoy at the track (5-6 times per year) - also a car that would still be reliable after beating on.
I don't want to take the S2000 to the track yet.
I started driving courses this year and will do all the BMW driver training courses next month, so that I can know the basics before tracking my car
Thanks for your input
I don't want to take the S2000 to the track yet.
I started driving courses this year and will do all the BMW driver training courses next month, so that I can know the basics before tracking my car
Thanks for your input
from all BMW drivers.