Passat TDI Turbo Blown?
07-28-2015, 05:02 AM
#1
Stage 1 Audi S5
Thread Starter
Passat TDI Turbo Blown?
Mom has a 2013 Passat TDI with 177k on it and recently it went into limp mode so it was towed. Dealer is saying that the turbo needs to be replaced for $2,500. I know the dealer isn't the best place but beyond that, it seems that the HPFP ($8-10k to fix I'm reading) and the turbos go on these all the time, is it worth fixing? VW knows there is a problem and extended the warranty to 120k but clearly she is out of it and they don't care.
She is livid because she drives a lot and wanted a car that got good mileage and would be problem free but this is clearly not the case, it has had numerous, expensive problems. People are reporting turbo failure at as little as 1,000 miles and some are having more than one fail within a few thousand miles, any insight here?
She is livid because she drives a lot and wanted a car that got good mileage and would be problem free but this is clearly not the case, it has had numerous, expensive problems. People are reporting turbo failure at as little as 1,000 miles and some are having more than one fail within a few thousand miles, any insight here?
The following 3 users liked this post by Jakes_tl:
07-28-2015, 06:22 AM
#4
look at the GTI's.
some dont even get through the dealer without the engine blowing.
if i recall, there was a certain vin range for the newest GTI's that blew.
my co-workers ATS blew with less than 20,000 miles on it.
07-28-2015, 06:24 AM
#6
of course it's cheaper to replace the engine than to do a major recall. 
my co-worker was like....but its being replaced with same engine....it'll do it again.
and he came from an 08 335i. LOL he should have kept the bimmer, as he didnt have any trouble with HFPP
my co-worker was like....but its being replaced with same engine....it'll do it again.
and he came from an 08 335i. LOL he should have kept the bimmer, as he didnt have any trouble with HFPP
07-28-2015, 06:42 AM
#7
AZ Community Team
Mom has a 2013 Passat TDI with 177k on it and recently it went into limp mode so it was towed. Dealer is saying that the turbo needs to be replaced for $2,500. I know the dealer isn't the best place but beyond that, it seems that the HPFP ($8-10k to fix I'm reading) and the turbos go on these all the time, is it worth fixing? VW knows there is a problem and extended the warranty to 120k but clearly she is out of it and they don't care.
She is livid because she drives a lot and wanted a car that got good mileage and would be problem free but this is clearly not the case, it has had numerous, expensive problems. People are reporting turbo failure at as little as 1,000 miles and some are having more than one fail within a few thousand miles, any insight here?
She is livid because she drives a lot and wanted a car that got good mileage and would be problem free but this is clearly not the case, it has had numerous, expensive problems. People are reporting turbo failure at as little as 1,000 miles and some are having more than one fail within a few thousand miles, any insight here?
As for your mom's car, if nothing else was wrong (HPFP) I would replace the turbo. From what I've read the newer VW diesel motors last awhile.
It's supposed to detonate, that's the operation of diesels.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-28-2015 at 06:45 AM.
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07-28-2015, 07:04 AM
#9
Three Wheelin'
I never did care for german cars but still I never knew GTI's and the ATS's were that bad.
I think this is the reason that Honda just doesn't want to use turbo's because reliability really isn't the same with forced induction.
I think this is the reason that Honda just doesn't want to use turbo's because reliability really isn't the same with forced induction.
07-28-2015, 09:19 AM
#12
AZ Community Team
07-28-2015, 11:28 AM
#13
Ex-OEM King
That said, there are tons of people who don't change their oil, use the wrong oil, run 87 instead of 91, and otherwise abuse their cars.
That said, if OP's mom drove this car for 177k miles and the turbo just blew that's not bad. A $2500 bill for a car that old is not unheard of.
07-28-2015, 11:34 AM
#14
9 mpg.
Join Date: Sep 2009
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I thought 177k was a typo. How'd she managed to rack up that many miles in 2-3 years? At that mileage I'd expect things to start breaking and become costly. Dump the car and ask mom to pick up the new Camry. 200k trouble-free miles in the blink of an eye.
07-28-2015, 11:46 AM
#15
AZ Community Team
If properly maintained, the turbo should last the life of the vehicle. The bearings are oil and the seals are just as good as any other engine seals.
That said, there are tons of people who don't change their oil, use the wrong oil, run 87 instead of 91, and otherwise abuse their cars.
That said, if OP's mom drove this car for 177k miles and the turbo just blew that's not bad. A $2500 bill for a car that old is not unheard of.
That said, there are tons of people who don't change their oil, use the wrong oil, run 87 instead of 91, and otherwise abuse their cars.
That said, if OP's mom drove this car for 177k miles and the turbo just blew that's not bad. A $2500 bill for a car that old is not unheard of.
They're hard requirements to get turbo's to last for the 100k, let alone 200k.
Water cooled bearing help and electric water pumps for heat soak back after the engine shuts down but turbo's are rough on their bearings and seals.
Do agree alot of turbo life depends on usage and maintenance. It helps to use synthetic oil, waiting for engine warmup before using alot of boost, then taking it easy on the throttle before shutting down the motor to allow the oil and water to cool down the turbo some.
The KKK T03 turbo I replaced had water jacket but no electric water pump and had a seized shaft at 130k miles. 177k is pretty good, best I remember is a colleagues wife who got 200k on her Saab turbo before it's seals and bearings failed. She was a nuclear physicist and knew about driving and maintaining a turbo. Never heard of any turbo making it to 300k miles.
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Jakes_tl (07-28-2015)
07-28-2015, 01:39 PM
#16
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
07-28-2015, 01:41 PM
#17
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
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benjaminh (07-28-2015)
07-28-2015, 01:47 PM
#18
AZ Community Team
07-28-2015, 02:15 PM
#19
GEEZER
I have a 2007 B7A4 2.0T with 70k miles. I have a Stage One tune, test pipe and otherwise pretty stock. I drive it like a raped ape everyday and other than having to buy two new Cooling Fans and a control module last year the car runs better than the day I bought it.
I go full syn oil changes every 8k miles, have had every little recall done, (Cam Follower comes to mind) and it is a great car. Cars break...car break more often with more miles on them.
I go full syn oil changes every 8k miles, have had every little recall done, (Cam Follower comes to mind) and it is a great car. Cars break...car break more often with more miles on them.
07-28-2015, 03:46 PM
#20
Stage 1 Audi S5
Thread Starter
To clear up a few things, yes, the car has 177,xxx miles and it is indeed a 2013. She drives a lot and was looking for a car that got good mileage and would last awhile. We have had numerous diesel trucks to pull the horses and they go forever, turbos don't blow (well unless you count the crappy engine ford used a few years ago, everything blew).
I guess I don't understand turbos, I don't expect it to blow with 200K, sorry I don't. As you can see, I've been on here forever and love cars but never realized turbos go like this, my fault BUT I feel I'm way more educated on cars then the average consumer so I can't imagine people expect this.
Big question is, these turbos are blowing all over and as low as 1,050 miles so I'm worried it could go againin the next few thousand plus it seems the fuel pump goes A LOT and that is 8-10k to fix, just wanted some first hand experience. Yes, VW forums are better but I love you homos :gheyhug:
I guess I don't understand turbos, I don't expect it to blow with 200K, sorry I don't. As you can see, I've been on here forever and love cars but never realized turbos go like this, my fault BUT I feel I'm way more educated on cars then the average consumer so I can't imagine people expect this.
Big question is, these turbos are blowing all over and as low as 1,050 miles so I'm worried it could go againin the next few thousand plus it seems the fuel pump goes A LOT and that is 8-10k to fix, just wanted some first hand experience. Yes, VW forums are better but I love you homos :gheyhug:
07-28-2015, 03:54 PM
#21
I don't see anything strange about that. 
07-28-2015, 04:34 PM
#25
Ex-OEM King
No other oil seal on a piston engine comes close to the environment of the turbine side of a turbo. The temp and pressure create problems for a flexible seal on the shaft to allow oil to circulate to the bearings. Add in the extreme heat that can coke the oil to the bearings and 100k rpm.
They're hard requirements to get turbo's to last for the 100k, let alone 200k.
Water cooled bearing help and electric water pumps for heat soak back after the engine shuts down but turbo's are rough on their bearings and seals.
Do agree alot of turbo life depends on usage and maintenance. It helps to use synthetic oil, waiting for engine warmup before using alot of boost, then taking it easy on the throttle before shutting down the motor to allow the oil and water to cool down the turbo some.
The KKK T03 turbo I replaced had water jacket but no electric water pump and had a seized shaft at 130k miles. 177k is pretty good, best I remember is a colleagues wife who got 200k on her Saab turbo before it's seals and bearings failed. She was a nuclear physicist and knew about driving and maintaining a turbo. Never heard of any turbo making it to 300k miles.
They're hard requirements to get turbo's to last for the 100k, let alone 200k.
Water cooled bearing help and electric water pumps for heat soak back after the engine shuts down but turbo's are rough on their bearings and seals.
Do agree alot of turbo life depends on usage and maintenance. It helps to use synthetic oil, waiting for engine warmup before using alot of boost, then taking it easy on the throttle before shutting down the motor to allow the oil and water to cool down the turbo some.
The KKK T03 turbo I replaced had water jacket but no electric water pump and had a seized shaft at 130k miles. 177k is pretty good, best I remember is a colleagues wife who got 200k on her Saab turbo before it's seals and bearings failed. She was a nuclear physicist and knew about driving and maintaining a turbo. Never heard of any turbo making it to 300k miles.
Also, the bearings on the turbine are not physical bearings, it's a layer of oil that the shaft floats on. This oil is constantly pumped by as the turbine is spinning to get cooler oil in there all the time. Modern cars run the oil pump after to get the hot oil out of the turbine housing and get cooler oil in there. Older cars had to have turbo timers to have the same effect otherwise you'd get burnt or gummed up oil in the turbine housing due to the hot oil sitting and not cooling off.
Water cooled ones help more still.
I don't think the turbo going at 177k is a huge deal. If she's had that many trouble free miles then a $2500 repair at that high of mileage is not a big deal to me.
Why is the fuel pump a $10k repair?
07-28-2015, 04:41 PM
#26
Premature turbo failures are common on Passats. So much so that there is a running thread on TDI Club where owners document their failures. OP's mom should have dumped it while she had the chance.
07-28-2015, 05:19 PM
#27
Stage 1 Audi S5
Thread Starter
There are indeed running threads on the turbos and I believe the fuel pumps so I'm leery of having her getting it fixed. The car is worth nothing and she hates it but it seems to sell it, she should get it fixed.
I just can't tell if they have addressed the issue because if it blows the new turbo in a few thousand miles, she may drive the car through the front window of the dealer, limp mode or not. As for the pump, I haven't read deep into it but I keep seeing 8 plus for the repair but maybe it's old.
She has had a lot of mechanical issues and has argued her way out of a few of the bills and warranty covered some but it seems to eat money. I get she travels a lot but she has been through Acuras and a Lexus with crazy mileage with few to no problems.
I just can't tell if they have addressed the issue because if it blows the new turbo in a few thousand miles, she may drive the car through the front window of the dealer, limp mode or not. As for the pump, I haven't read deep into it but I keep seeing 8 plus for the repair but maybe it's old.
She has had a lot of mechanical issues and has argued her way out of a few of the bills and warranty covered some but it seems to eat money. I get she travels a lot but she has been through Acuras and a Lexus with crazy mileage with few to no problems.
07-28-2015, 06:05 PM
#28
Team Owner
get her a Prius... but she probably need the battery changed within 1 year... which will probably cost more than 1 turbo.
I don't see any realistic alternatives for someone who drives 177k miles in 2 years. that is 1.5 oil change per months and new tire evey 5-6 months.
I don't see any realistic alternatives for someone who drives 177k miles in 2 years. that is 1.5 oil change per months and new tire evey 5-6 months.
07-28-2015, 06:07 PM
#29
Team Owner
just forget about the VW and maybe rent her a car with unlimited mileage is actually a better alternative and the rental car company probably will ban her after a few months due to excessive mileage on an unlimited mileage car.
07-28-2015, 07:51 PM
#30
Evil Mazda Driver
The bus lasted about six hours of my eight hour route and after running it up a hill with a 14% grade, I quite literally killed it. The thing sounded like it was running on five cylinders.
07-29-2015, 07:18 AM
#31
Stage 1 Audi S5
Thread Starter
Portland - Please tell me you drive a short bus
07-29-2015, 07:49 AM
#32
AZ Community Team
Turbos regularly last over 100k miles no problem, I'm not sure what you're talking about. If they didn't, it would be in the preventative maintenance for the car.
Also, the bearings on the turbine are not physical bearings, it's a layer of oil that the shaft floats on. This oil is constantly pumped by as the turbine is spinning to get cooler oil in there all the time. Modern cars run the oil pump after to get the hot oil out of the turbine housing and get cooler oil in there. Older cars had to have turbo timers to have the same effect otherwise you'd get burnt or gummed up oil in the turbine housing due to the hot oil sitting and not cooling off.
Water cooled ones help more still.
Also, the bearings on the turbine are not physical bearings, it's a layer of oil that the shaft floats on. This oil is constantly pumped by as the turbine is spinning to get cooler oil in there all the time. Modern cars run the oil pump after to get the hot oil out of the turbine housing and get cooler oil in there. Older cars had to have turbo timers to have the same effect otherwise you'd get burnt or gummed up oil in the turbine housing due to the hot oil sitting and not cooling off.
Water cooled ones help more still.
There are physical bearings on turbo's, take one apart and you'll see. They are typically sleeve bronze or ball bearings. The oil lubricates and cools the bearings.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/product...ingSystem.aspx
Radial bearing system
With a sleeve bearing, the shaft turns without friction on an oil film in the sleeve bearing bushing. For the turbocharger, the oil supply comes from the engine oil circuit. The bearing system is designed such that brass floating bushings, rotating at about half shaft speed, are situated between the stationary centre housing and the rotating shaft. This allows these high speed bearings to be adapted such that there is no metal contact between shaft and bearings at any of the operating points. Besides the lubricating function, the oil film in the bearing clearances also has a damping function, which contributes to the stability of the shaft and turbine wheel assembly. The hydrodynamic load-carrying capacity and the bearing damping characteristics are optimised by the clearances. The lubricating oil thickness for the inner clearances is therefore selected with respect to the bearing strength, whereas the outer clearances are designed with regard to the bearing damping. The bearing clearances are only a few hundredths of a millimetre.
The one-piece bearing system is a special form of a sleeve bearing system. The shaft turns within a stationary bushing, which is oil scavenged from the outside. The outer bearing clearance can be designed specifically for the bearing damping, as no rotation takes place.
Axial-thrust bearing system
Neither the fully floating bushing bearings nor the single-piece fixed floating bushing bearing system support forces in axial direction. As the gas forces acting on the compressor and turbine wheels in axial direction are of differing strengths, the shaft and turbine wheel assembly is displaced in an axial direction. The axial bearing, a sliding surface bearing with tapered lands, absorbs these forces. Two small discs fixed on the shaft serve as contact surfaces. The axial bearing is fixed in the centre housing. An oil-deflecting plate prevents the oil from entering the shaft sealing area.
With a sleeve bearing, the shaft turns without friction on an oil film in the sleeve bearing bushing. For the turbocharger, the oil supply comes from the engine oil circuit. The bearing system is designed such that brass floating bushings, rotating at about half shaft speed, are situated between the stationary centre housing and the rotating shaft. This allows these high speed bearings to be adapted such that there is no metal contact between shaft and bearings at any of the operating points. Besides the lubricating function, the oil film in the bearing clearances also has a damping function, which contributes to the stability of the shaft and turbine wheel assembly. The hydrodynamic load-carrying capacity and the bearing damping characteristics are optimised by the clearances. The lubricating oil thickness for the inner clearances is therefore selected with respect to the bearing strength, whereas the outer clearances are designed with regard to the bearing damping. The bearing clearances are only a few hundredths of a millimetre.
The one-piece bearing system is a special form of a sleeve bearing system. The shaft turns within a stationary bushing, which is oil scavenged from the outside. The outer bearing clearance can be designed specifically for the bearing damping, as no rotation takes place.
Axial-thrust bearing system
Neither the fully floating bushing bearings nor the single-piece fixed floating bushing bearing system support forces in axial direction. As the gas forces acting on the compressor and turbine wheels in axial direction are of differing strengths, the shaft and turbine wheel assembly is displaced in an axial direction. The axial bearing, a sliding surface bearing with tapered lands, absorbs these forces. Two small discs fixed on the shaft serve as contact surfaces. The axial bearing is fixed in the centre housing. An oil-deflecting plate prevents the oil from entering the shaft sealing area.
Turbo's should last over 100K, but they are wear items.
One thing that can be done to a turbo is rebuild it with new bearings and seals. My friend's Passat KKK turbo was seized and the compressor made contact with the housing. Once the balanced compressor or turbine make contact they are ruined.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 07-29-2015 at 07:55 AM.
07-29-2015, 11:35 AM
#33
Team Owner
Try to convince her to get a hyundai or Kia. she can test it out for us how reliable the new KIA/HYundais really are.
07-29-2015, 01:05 PM
#34
Stage 1 Audi S5
Thread Starter
While I get what you are saying, if you were spending that much time in a car, wouldn't you want a nice one? She was worried about going to a Passat in terms of comfort and features and after this experience, I know her next car will be nicer. Just trying to figure out if this is worth fixing.
07-29-2015, 01:08 PM
#35
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Fix it, pass it. Don't go FI on the next one. There is just inherent wear when dealing with boost. 177K really isn't a lot when you consider it probably wasn't under boost for much of those miles. But it still saw consistent heat and wear. RLX with upgraded tires? 
07-29-2015, 01:17 PM
#36
Team Owner
as much as i dislike RLX, i think that might be a good buy, especially used ones. Their resale value with low mileage makes it a good buy.
07-29-2015, 01:51 PM
#37
Ex-OEM King
There are physical bearings on turbo's, take one apart and you'll see. They are typically sleeve bronze or ball bearings. The oil lubricates and cools the bearings.
Design and Function of a Turbocharger - Bearing system | BorgWarner Turbo Systems
As for lifespan, a colleague's S4 ate both turbo's by 50k who followed maintenance and always used synthetic oil. Also let engine idle for a couple minutes before shutting down.
Turbo's should last over 100K, but they are wear items.
One thing that can be done to a turbo is rebuild it with new bearings and seals. My friend's Passat KKK turbo was seized and the compressor made contact with the housing. Once the balanced compressor or turbine make contact they are ruined.
Design and Function of a Turbocharger - Bearing system | BorgWarner Turbo Systems
As for lifespan, a colleague's S4 ate both turbo's by 50k who followed maintenance and always used synthetic oil. Also let engine idle for a couple minutes before shutting down.
Turbo's should last over 100K, but they are wear items.
One thing that can be done to a turbo is rebuild it with new bearings and seals. My friend's Passat KKK turbo was seized and the compressor made contact with the housing. Once the balanced compressor or turbine make contact they are ruined.
The S4 ate all kinds of parts all the time, it's not really a stellar example of reliability by any measure.
I agree with your last point, the issue is low oil pressure to the shaft which cause the sleeves to grind against the housing. Once that happens, you're screwed. The cause of the low oil pressure is not running your engine/oil pump for ~30s after stopping to pump fresh, cool oil into the turbine housing. Not doing that causes the oil to sludge up in the housing over time.
Now all this being said, the seals can and do leak but if the pressure is maintained in the housing, it's just the same as any other leak in that it shouldn't be a problem other than checking your oil level. I'm pretty sure the seals can be rebuilt too.
07-29-2015, 02:16 PM
#38
Team Owner
Can we not turn every thread into a technical bulletin?
All i need is look at my other monitor right now to look at the endless spreadsheet if i want to see technical stuff.
All i need is look at my other monitor right now to look at the endless spreadsheet if i want to see technical stuff.
07-29-2015, 02:23 PM
#39
While I get what you are saying, if you were spending that much time in a car, wouldn't you want a nice one? She was worried about going to a Passat in terms of comfort and features and after this experience, I know her next car will be nicer. Just trying to figure out if this is worth fixing.
How about an Acura TLX? Nicer than a Passat inside and out, almost certainly more reliable, and only costs a bit more.
PS I really like the tech stuff. Keep it coming, as far as I'm concerned lol. Turbos are coming to Acura very soon....Probably for model year 2017.
07-29-2015, 02:40 PM
#40
Ex-OEM King
