Interesting explanation about semi-auto transmissions
09-26-2015, 04:13 PM
#1
Rooting for Acura
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Interesting explanation about semi-auto transmissions
Source: Lamborghini R&D Chief Says Stick Shifts Are Dead
Lamborghini R&D Chief Explains Why Manual Transmissions are Dead
Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.
You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.
But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?
"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like [the Huracán], we will only do a semiautomatic.
"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."
This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.
It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."
So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.
Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.
"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."
In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.
Lamborghini R&D Chief Explains Why Manual Transmissions are Dead
Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.
You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.
But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?
"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like [the Huracán], we will only do a semiautomatic.
"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."
This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.
It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."
So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.
Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.
"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."
In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.
09-26-2015, 05:05 PM
#2
Senior Moderator
No surprise here, but honestly depressing the clutch and rowing into the next gear is better than the shift paddles. There's no comparison between the two. It's understandable that there are assists now, but the act of the driver being able to row into the right gear before passing or taking over is something that can't be replaced by a computer.
09-27-2015, 01:09 AM
#3
Been known for years for the company when the Gallardo switched to E-Gear as the standard transmission & manual was a very expensive option because the assembly line would have to build the rear end to accommodate the manual.
09-27-2015, 08:08 AM
#4
In the Mid-South meow
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Cool article. Like csmeance said, rowing through the gears using a clutch pedal, regardless of electronic assist, is more gratifying than paddles for most enthusiasts, but purists will never be happy unless it's completely mechanical. I think the real underlying issue is the people that can afford these six figure super and hyper cars aren't the true enthusiasts, the majority are number chasing, status addicted prudes that will settle for nothing but the fastest, most technologically advanced machines, which rules out the manual transmission. If it was true enthusiasts like we consider ourselves that could afford them the manufacturers would do what it took to make it happen. After all at the end of the day it's about selling the cars to the ones that can buy them, not satisfying us mere reviewers.
09-27-2015, 10:31 AM
#5
Rooting for Acura
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Cool article. Like csmeance said, rowing through the gears using a clutch pedal, regardless of electronic assist, is more gratifying than paddles for most enthusiasts, but purists will never be happy unless it's completely mechanical. I think the real underlying issue is the people that can afford these six figure super and hyper cars aren't the true enthusiasts, the majority are number chasing, status addicted prudes that will settle for nothing but the fastest, most technologically advanced machines, which rules out the manual transmission. If it was true enthusiasts like we consider ourselves that could afford them the manufacturers would do what it took to make it happen. After all at the end of the day it's about selling the cars to the ones that can buy them, not satisfying us mere reviewers.
As for a stick, whether it be assisted or not, is engaging. Even though I like to drive a stick I still opted for an automatic when I got my car. That decision speaks more to practicality than enthusiast intent. One day I'll get a car to drive through the back roads on the weekend. That car will more than likely be a stick.
09-28-2015, 03:04 PM
#6
Senior Moderator
Sorry to say but, all of you guys missed the point of the article - the point is that for modern day cars such as Lamborghini or other enthusiast cars, an automatic transmission is, essentially, required in order to fully utilize the car's potential and effectively integrate the complex computer systems, thereby maximizing how they interact with one another.
Now, I'm a hardcore manual guy, but this is the first article that KIND OF made me look at the other side and say "oh, well there is a good point regarding this topic, in favor of automatic transmissions".
Now, I'm a hardcore manual guy, but this is the first article that KIND OF made me look at the other side and say "oh, well there is a good point regarding this topic, in favor of automatic transmissions".
09-28-2015, 05:20 PM
#7
Trolling Canuckistan
Sorry to say but, all of you guys missed the point of the article - the point is that for modern day cars such as Lamborghini or other enthusiast cars, an automatic transmission is, essentially, required in order to fully utilize the car's potential and effectively integrate the complex computer systems, thereby maximizing how they interact with one another.
Now, I'm a hardcore manual guy, but this is the first article that KIND OF made me look at the other side and say "oh, well there is a good point regarding this topic, in favor of automatic transmissions".
Now, I'm a hardcore manual guy, but this is the first article that KIND OF made me look at the other side and say "oh, well there is a good point regarding this topic, in favor of automatic transmissions".
Personally I think most if what was said in the article was profit and image protection propaganda. They could make a manual that could handle the power however, it would be costly and wouldn't have the performance of the auto and would cost points in the "stat sheet racer" crowd.
Beyond that he doesn't want to say the absolute truth. Less than 1% of the cars they sell go to true performance enthusiasts, they go to the extremely wealthy as a way to how off their wealth to the commoners. The desires of our car customers vary greatly from the desires of their poster, hat, and t-shirt customers. The people who buy t-shirts demand manual transmissions, the people who buy Lamborghini automobiles want automatics.
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Crazy Bimmer (09-28-2015)
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09-28-2015, 05:29 PM
#8
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Meh. No care for the automatic transmission. I'll get one when my left leg is done.
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D's Up (03-04-2016)
03-04-2016, 08:59 AM
#10
Feel free to continue the convo here: https://acurazine.com/forums/car-tal...ssions-942400/
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