IRJ

This is a request for knowledge and advise re the Certified Pre-Owned program.
15 Months ago my daughter bought a pre-owned Certified car from an Acura Dealership in NJ the car had done 26K miles.
It came with the usual paperwork, clean history report and warranties re the Certified Program and their inspection..
Since that time she has moved to California and took the car with her. She went through the DMV State Testing and they pointed out a number of "discrepancies/issues" with the car.
Such as missing VIN sticker from the hood and bent exhaust pipe etc.
As a result she visited a local California Acura Dealership who have now inspected the car and told her that her car has been in an accident. They are preparing a detailed written report. Amongst other stuff the Hood has been replaced and the rear tailgate.
Thus it seems the "accident" before she bought the car damaged both the front and rear and other parts of the car!
None of this was declared by the NJ Selling Dealership although even a visual inspection by a dealership would have shown up this evidence and this car went through the Acura certified inspection.

Obviously if my daughter goes back to the original Selling Dealership this is going to be quite a contentious communication and she is no longer able to drive to that Dealership with the car.
Does anyone know of the best pathway forward to have a serious and genuine discussion with Acura Certified Pre-Owned Program people at the Corporate level to raise the issue?
I am sure that the right people at Acura HQ will want to examine this issue fully.
Many thanks for any help.

Sarlacc

Did the car pass CA smog and inspection?

IRJ

Sarlacc,
The short answer is YES the car (Acura RDX) did pass the smog and inspection.
The longer answer is that they drew my daughter's attention to the "discrepancies" and they did ponder what to do and eventually they gave her a "pass". Plus the "suggestion" she visit Acura ASAP.
Sometimes pays to be a female I guess.

We now have a written report for an Acura Dealership in Ca.
"Upon inspection the Tech found the vehicle had been in a collision the exhaust has evidence of the collision damage the heatshield is bent and VIN stickers are missing from the Hood and Rear Tailgate areas".

I don't know for sure, maybe someone can help me out here, but I am guessing that "replacement VIN stickers" would only be granted as and when the Vehicle reports was updated to reflect accident. As the record doesn't have anything this is my best guess.
I am also guess that anear new used car in NJ doesn't need an inspection?

Sarlacc

My guess is, unless any of their findings don't accurately describe what a certified pre-owned Acura is...then you are both SOL....as she has owned that vehicle for how long now? And never noticed any of said things prior. Perhaps they'll replace the exhaust under warranty if its damaged...but they can also claim how does anyone know that didn't happen on the X country drive to CA?

If the car passed and is functioning properly...probably best to move on at this point.

IRJ

There was no way for her to discover the condition of her car.
In NJ she was a nurse living 5 minutes from her hospital so the car had very small mileage and no service needs as a result.
Only at the first inspection and that was in California.
Her car still has several missing VIN stickers which I doubt grow on trees.
Hence she will have issues at either the next inspection or when she tries to sell the car.

And this is looking very much like the Selling Dealership was either totally incompetent, or something far far worse...

Sarlacc

Sorry. Can't accept that.

When i I bought a certified Pre owned Acura oh so long ago. I went as far as making them put the car up on a lift to check under.

The hood. No real way of knowing and the hood should have nothing to do with smog. Purely cosmetic unless it was put on all jacked. Which you would have seen.

The car passed. It should pass again unless that dented exhaust is something that will get worse over time.

3.2cls6speedmt

Unfortunately, Acura cpo does not guarantee the car is accident free. Acura does not cpo vehicles that have structure damage. Most states do not protect consumers on used car purchases. I am not sure about nj.

neuronbob

http://www.acura.com/content/pdf/CPO_150pt.pdf

Here's the Acura CPO list. #4 is to look for body damage. Sounds like they didn't, or the person who checked didn't know.

Unfortunately, you are likely SOL given purchase 15 months ago. The dealer can claim that the damage happened after the purchase since it's been so long. I'm sure one of our legal scholars can comment on whether your daughter has a case, though. An option is media exposure.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Depending on the Dealership that does the CPO, they may or may not take execute the process as directed from Corporate. It's inspected by a certified technician. The technician (in theory) is factory trained and has experience beyond Acura to carefully inspect the vehicle to see if it meets the CPO check list. Things like an accident, should not be allowed to become a CPO vehicle. If the technician did his part and noted what is needed to bring the vehicle up to date with service, it is up to the sales manager to approve of the work cost and make the vehicle a CPO. There's a fine line here on honesty. Some dealerships don't follow procedure and will still process a vehicle under Acura CPO. The vehicle could have been in an accident and still put on the lot as a CPO. The vehicle barely got any maintenance work done (fluids, filters, tires, brakes ect) and still put on the lot as a CPO. A vehicle that was in an accident should not be a CPO due to the liability of not knowing if the structure is sound. If the dealership is only concern about sales and making maximum profit, it will show with the CPO's. They will clearly fail a CPO checklist. The flip side is, the technician isn't meticulous with his inspections and misses detailed things and yet the dealership still put the vehicle through the CPO process unaware of such issues. I worked for two different Acura dealerships. Each dealership handled the CPO very differently from one another. Dealerships which hold the highest CSI rating and prestige title, usually does the right thing and CPO the vehicles correctly. I would bring the vehicle back and see if they will do a buy back. If not, address this to your insurance company and make them aware of the situation. Both dealerships, were in NJ.

dallison

What neuronbob said. She will have to prove to them that she didn't cause the damage at this point.

IRJ

Here is an update and meantime thanks for the replies.

I have had a lengthy conversation with Acura Client Relations in California around this.
They were very professional with me.They made two points:
1) Acura CPOV programs do not preclude cars which have had accident damage, so long as they have been properly repaired.
2) The Dealerships run their own Franchises under Acura overall protocols etc.
That said I pointed out that the Acura Dealership in Ca and the testing station in Ca saw that the vehicle had been in a significant crash almost immediately so the Denville NJ dealership MUST have known.
I asked them how do I correct the missing Decals and VIN stickers etc. and pointed out that the car was not represented correctly.
We discussed the fact that the "shop" which did the repairs was likely not an Acura "approved" facility as the repairs were not fully completed and the proper VINs not replaced.

So right now Acura are assigning a "Case Manager" to this. He/she will research this and talk to the NJ and Ca dealerships about the car and then they will revert to me.

Yes the 15 month time lag is "unfortunate", but when a non car person takes delivery of a car they rely on the representation of the CPOV and it was only when the car went thru re-registration in Ca that the whole "issue" could have been discovered.

I suspect that this can go either of two ways:
1) The NJ Dealership could deny culpability and start accusations...about when the car was crashed. (makes me wonder if this dealership has a history....)
or
2) Acura lean on the NJ Dealership pay for repairs in California by Acura Costa Mesa and find a way to get the correct stickers/VIN put in place. This would leave the loss of value etc.
Definitely Acura HQ have an interesting balancing act here.
Overall I hold Acura in high regard through earlier dealings with them. My own RDX had the airbag issue and because my wife is rather petite they decided I should park the car and gave me a loaner while awaiting the repairs.
That was more than impressive.

We will see how this plays out. Right now I have ZERO beef with Acura itself..

AZuser

I've never heard of VIN stickers getting replaced. Why would Acura replace a VIN sticker for a part that isn't original / was replaced due to an accident? Doing so would enable you to misrepresent the car if/when you decide to sell it and buyer doesn't know what to look for like your daughter.

IRJ

Quite possibly.
I would note that 99.5% of car buyers would not know that they should check for VIN stickers on the hood and Tailgate.
I have now had two conversations with Acura/Honda and they are acting as referee.
I have also had a conversation with the Selling Dealer, set up by Honda. They are "investigating".

neuronbob

Good progress report, OP. Keep us posted.

CurrentDraw

I've spoken to CPO techs from Acura and Mercedes about VIN tags in the past and their response was the VIN tags on the dashboard and door jamb must be there. VIN numbers on engine and transmission must match the vehicle. Emission label is required on the hood but VIN tag isn't. Missing VIN on hood will not fail for emission or inspection. (If anyone lives in a state that does, please chime in)

Unibody must be inspected for structural damage. Hood, trunk, cosmetic panels are parts of the body and are not considered part of structural frame/unibody so those do not count. However they do report their findings of all missing VIN tags, and the manager gives the final CPO approval based on all of the information provided.

VIN labels/tags are not available as a replacement as this can create all types of cases of fraud such as altering and cloning of VIN numbers on stolen parts/vehicles to mislead consumers.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

As CPO Technicians, they aren't paid to remove bumpers, fenders ect to fully inspect if there is indeed any sort of structural damage. Usually, you use your very best judgement on if the vehicle qualifies as a CPO or it doesn't. Like I said before, it's not solely up to the technician looking the vehicle over. That information gets passed to the sales manager who makes the final decision. The dealership has a very large over head, they are there to make profit and keep things going. It's up to the dealership if they follow the procedure to do the right thing or not. There is way too much corruption and politics in a dealership the owners running the place aren't too involved on what's happening in all departments of the dealership. I will tell you a time when I inspected a Nissan Altima that was in a nasty wreck. The frame was cracked and poorly put together. None of the panels lined up, the paint work looked terrible even from space and I told the sales manager to whole sale the vehicle because it was unsafe. By doing so, the dealership discloses why it's being whole sale ect. They ended up putting the vehicle on the lot for sale. Some unfortunate family bought the vehicle and it kept coming back for problems I addressed. The dealership wanted to band aid fix the problems. I left the industry after 11 years. I couldn't stand the corruption and bullshit anymore.

Jdrum1

I would have never assumed that a dealer's inspection of the own cars (certified or not) would be a 100% guarantee that all the body panels are original.

Also, I've never heard of replacing the VIN stickers on replacement panels. Maybe I'm naive on this, but I thought that was part of the reason for the VIN stickers (to ensure originality of parts).

Did you run BOTH a CarFax and AutoCheck before buying? I've seen both omit important information, so I always run both ($10 for both on Fiverr).

IRJ

Thanks for the replies it is appreciated in building my knowledge base.
Yes even now the reports like Carfax are clean.
An update after multiple telephone calls and emails. have sent them full close up phots of the car.

As expected the Dealership is resisting everything.
1) They say the bumper damage has been cause by my daughter backing into something.
2) Their photos of the rear exterior of the car show no bumper damage at time of sale.
My reply:
1) The bumper damage has been caused recently on the first LONG drive since purchase (she lived 5 minutes walk from the Hospital she worked at so the car never did long runs before).
The bent exhaust is shown to push hot exhaust directly onto that area of the rear bumper and caused it to partially melt.
2) It is apparent that the incident repairs meant the fitting of a replacement bumper and painting it, but they did not bother to fix the exhaust.

To facilitate the discussion I have strongly requested we agree on an expert to review and report on the car, it's incident, repairs and current safety.
The dealership is resisting this......

Meantime I had a contact in the business of repairs do a quick take on the car and in his opinion he says "..both quarter panels, tailgate, rear bumper and both fenders have been repainted.." This is in addition to any replacement parts and bent exhaust etc.

I have requested Acura HQs Customer Care to help facilitate this and get this independent inspection done ASAP.
They have "kicked this upstairs" for their review of the situation. They continue to correctly maintain they are not directly involved, but I do point out the reputation of their Acura Certified Pre-Owned program is being directly tarnished.

neuronbob

So it's going pretty much as I expected. I suspect, at the end of this, your daughter is SOL.

Sarlacc

Wait...so your daughter was rear ended? So, how do you know the exhaust wasn't bent then?

Cant stand it when details are left to to change the outlook. As we all said, you are SOL. Your daughter is SOL. Live and learn.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Yikes... I had hope for you... but that new detail of a recent rear-end accident kind of changes things pretty significantly...

IRJ

NO There has been absolutely NO accident and specifically NO rear end accident during my daughter's ownership.

The SUV has been in a major incident PRIOR to her ownership and buying as a Certified Acura Pre-Owned vehicle.
Everyone who has looked at the car recently have told us that after examination many parts have been replaced including the rear bumper. While the bumper was replaced, and other repairs made to the car (all before her ownership) the bent exhaust was never fixed and exhaust fumes were then incorrectly aiming at the inside of the rear bumper. Since she did only very short journeys in the car until about 3 months ago so this heat did not cause any new, or visible damage.
However, when she drove the car for several long distances over a few days the bumper wilted under the heat and even some reflective lenses basically melted and fell off.

The Selling dealership looked at the photos we supplied of the car and is trying to claim my daughter backed into somebody to cause that bumper damage. This is completely and utterly false and wrong.
Those who have seen the car in person recognize this is extreme heat damage.
The selling Dealership is ignoring a report from an California Acura Dealership which says the car has been in an accident and is not fully repaired.
The selling Dealership is balking at my insistence that we nominate an independent "expert" to review the car and report to us BOTH. They are balking, IMHO, because they realize the truth will come out.
I am therefore asking Acura HQs to act as a referee and arrange for this inspection and give us, Acura and the selling dealership their report.

Again right now I have no "beef" with Acura. I do expect and hope they can and will nominate an impartial "expert" to review the car. I think is a reasonable request.

Note I already have had a short paragraph written by an Acura Dealership in California which the NJ Selling Dealership is ignoring. So if I get another independent shop which I pay for the inspection they will doubtless ignore that as well.
That's why I have asked Acura to act as referee.

thoiboi

Got any pics OP?
Also.. this statement
was refuted by this statement here:

That's where I think we got confused..

IRJ

IRJ

Additional Point:

The Certified Acura Pre-Owned Program has this short line in it.
"The Acura Dealership technicians also inspect all placements of the Vehicle Identification Number to ensure that the VIN plates match"

With missing VINs and a bent exhaust/heat shield it appears to me that this car should not have been Qualified for the Certification.

AZuser

I think what they mean by that is they check, for example, the VIN on the dash/behind the windshield matches the VIN in the engine bay, or that those match the VIN on the door jamb, etc., just to make sure the car wasn't chopped up and put back together after, say, a major accident.




The Acura rep even told you that accidents don't exclude cars from being certified used,

and accidents sometimes mean body panels (e.g. hood, door) are replaced. When a body panel is replace, the VIN sticker isn't transferred over to the replacement panel.

IRJ

The certification requires that VINs be checked to match and the other 182 points including checking the exhaust system.
The VINs are missing and the exhaust/heat shield needed repairs, but none of these were noted as discrepancies?
Also the Dealership represented the car as "clean" by dint of giving the Clean CarFax report, this despite the inevitability of the inspection raising many red flags they the car is not "clean..

Sarlacc

Ok got it.

But you initially did NOT make it perfectly clear. Now, you have.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Agreed


Also agreed.

Good luck OP

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

The Vin check is done 1st through Acura's data base. This lets the technician know a few important details, one of which has recall information. The next one is visual inspection from the vin on the dash to the under the hood. Acura never expect anyone to remove bumpers and check for vin stickers. It's not hard to tell if a vehicle was painted, especially once up in the air. I remember when a new MDX came to the dealership, I saw it was damaged (light damaged on the back bumper), It was sold to a customer. I asked the sales person "are you going to fix the bumper or at least let them customer know?" His reply back was "Once it leaves the lot, it's their problem". It's how most dealerships work. All about profit, never about a loss. Unfortunately, I don't see much of a resolution. Only Corporate can do the right thing and help you out and if they aren't willing to do so, you're pretty much SOL. Keep us posted, wish I can help you more.

Sarlacc

Perhaps I missed or forgot....pull a carfax. Does the accident come up? If not, dealer will use that as an excuse.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

I think OP said the carfax came up clean. The unfortunate part is, a lot of people aren't reporting accidents and paying out of pocket for repairs. Most dealerships also purchase damaged vehicles and have a body shop fix them without reporting anything. Carfax isn't reliable anymore.

Sarlacc

Yes...thats why I asked. If it came back clean, the dealership will play the ignorant card.

neuronbob

My statement on SOL didn't have anything to do with the exhaust damage, it had more to do with the dealer's claiming the damage happened after the car left the dealership....as I predicted. I do hope all works out for you, OP.

Next time, a PPI will be helpful, either by someone you know that knows cars, or a paid PPI. I also use Carfax, but also sign up for their guarantee to cover myself, for what *limited* good it does.

nist7

Yup. My 06 TL, despite meticulous dealer service records and owners claiming no accidents, I found a very small crack on the bottom of the front bumper (nothing huge o or noticeable) almost 1yr into ownership and it looked like the prior owner bumped into something (curb or something). Obviously this was my fault and I had thought I looked over everything but somehow missed this.

A very good lesson learned....and basically don't trust anyone even if they seem trustworthy. And this extends to dealerships and to CPO cars as well. Another lesson from this thread seems to be to not even trust CPO....and to get fullly independent car inspections no matter if it is CPO....unless it is brand brand new.