Honda: Development and Technology News
08-24-2016, 11:05 AM
#2481
They could stop making cars bigger with each new generation like with the 10th gen Civic (compact --> mid size)
But maybe that would make them less safe? Supposedly it's bigger due to new safety standards.... and also to make room for downmarket models.
But maybe that would make them less safe? Supposedly it's bigger due to new safety standards.... and also to make room for downmarket models.
08-24-2016, 11:45 AM
#2482
Team Owner
You totally bring up an excellent point. When it comes to these high gear transmissions, the biggest problem isn't the upshifting, but the downshifting. Particularly when moving at a steady speed and trying to accelerate. I assume when they say 3 clutches, they mean like how dual clutches have 2, so like this is a dual clutch with a third clutch? So if this is the case, maybe they found a way to work around it and this transmssion will be able to drop from gear 8 (let's face it, like the current 9 speed, 9th gear and up will never ever be in use) to gear 2 or 3 in one go? What Honda should be doing is perfecting their 8 and 9 speed dual clutch transmissions, putting them across the lineup, turbo charging their V6 offerings in the top trims and just stop. This whole gear race is getting out of hand. Ford has a 10 speed on the new raptor. Is that even necessary? Hell if you want to go up to 11 speeds, just put a CVT in and call it a day, it is plenty more capable of moving around ratios than any conventional auto if done right (no one has yet imho).
What do you drive with an 8 speed zf? I had a dodge charger awd rental with that transmission and god it was clunky. It was like forever trying to downshift from 7/8 to 2/3 for acceleration.
What do you drive with an 8 speed zf? I had a dodge charger awd rental with that transmission and god it was clunky. It was like forever trying to downshift from 7/8 to 2/3 for acceleration.
Matter of fact, BMW ZF8 does not like to downshift, because it thinks it has enough torque to do what is being asked. "It Thinks"
Last edited by oonowindoo; 08-24-2016 at 11:53 AM.
08-24-2016, 11:49 AM
#2483
Team Owner
Agree, alot of it has to do with the programing. I have ridden in the new Genesis sedan with the 8 speed and it didnt do any hunting and shifts were quick in between down shifts, my buddies X5M with the 8 speed is just plain fantastic.
As for the 10 speed in the Ford/Chevy (co developed) i think it will serve very well in the suv segment, they will be able to space gearing really well for payloads and overall MPG. .
As for the 10 speed in the Ford/Chevy (co developed) i think it will serve very well in the suv segment, they will be able to space gearing really well for payloads and overall MPG. .
But you will only notice all the little things after you live with it for a while. it still has a lot of flaws that you will only notice under certain situation
08-24-2016, 01:43 PM
#2484
I find it hilarious Honda is patenting a 3 clutch, 11 gear transmission. Either that transmission will be incredibly large, or Honda keeps downsizing the gears inside, and whatever else. Based on their track record, going smaller seems like a long term disaster. The transmissions generally can't even handle 300hp/300lbft at the moment. Those numbers aren't even considered impressive by today's standards.
In order to fit the ZF 9 speed into a 6 speed foot print, ZF needed to sacrafice quite a few things including implementing 2 dog clutches which are the main reason people are experiencing laggy and hesitating shifts.
F36 435i I could be wrong but i believe Charger might have the same ZF8 but programming is probably very different since the Torque curve is different between a N/A engine and an FI Engine.
Matter of fact, BMW ZF8 does not like to downshift, because it thinks it has enough torque to do what is being asked. "It Thinks"
Matter of fact, BMW ZF8 does not like to downshift, because it thinks it has enough torque to do what is being asked. "It Thinks"
The 8 speed in the nee geneisis was really smooth and I give them props for making their own.
08-24-2016, 02:02 PM
#2485
Yah like i said the ZF8 is probably one of THE best auto transmission out there right now in terms of performance and smoothness. The shifting speed is to me almost the same as a DCT. It even makes the DCT shifting sound when you have it in Sport+
But you will only notice all the little things after you live with it for a while. it still has a lot of flaws that you will only notice under certain situation
But you will only notice all the little things after you live with it for a while. it still has a lot of flaws that you will only notice under certain situation
08-24-2016, 03:59 PM
#2486
Team Owner
I really like the BMW ZF8, dont get me wrong. I am actually surprised that i can live with an auto for 1 full year which hasn't happened since my CL-S days.
It does not have any "problems" like the ZF9 from Acura. But it does have its share of imperfections. like how you would notice all the flaws from a girl after the first 6 months of dating
that you did not notice or decide to ignore during the beginning.
The interesting part is the transmission in the F10 feels different than the ones in the 3/4 series. If i recall correctly even the part #s are different due to programming and torque capacity. The 5 series feels very relaxed and comfortable even in Sport or Sport+.
The one in the 3/4 is very aggressive in sport, especially in Sport+ that gives you the "powershift" jerk feeling when pushed and the clunk feeling if you leave it in sport+ but drive like a grandma.
As good as the ZF8 is, i just can't imagine adding 3 more gears to it. I hope Honda's 3 clutches is the solution but you can't change the fact that it still has 11 gears...
It does not have any "problems" like the ZF9 from Acura. But it does have its share of imperfections. like how you would notice all the flaws from a girl after the first 6 months of dating
that you did not notice or decide to ignore during the beginning.The interesting part is the transmission in the F10 feels different than the ones in the 3/4 series. If i recall correctly even the part #s are different due to programming and torque capacity. The 5 series feels very relaxed and comfortable even in Sport or Sport+.
The one in the 3/4 is very aggressive in sport, especially in Sport+ that gives you the "powershift" jerk feeling when pushed and the clunk feeling if you leave it in sport+ but drive like a grandma.
As good as the ZF8 is, i just can't imagine adding 3 more gears to it. I hope Honda's 3 clutches is the solution but you can't change the fact that it still has 11 gears...
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Costco (08-24-2016)
10-24-2016, 08:38 AM
#2487
Safety Car
AutoNews
http://www.autonews.com/article/20161024/OEM01/310249959/as-hondas-u-s-sales-rise-capacity-shrinks
As Honda's U.S. sales rise, capacity shrinks
CEO may ease crunch with exports from Japan
October 24, 2016 @ 12:01 am
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Next year, Honda plans to add production of the CR-V to its Greensburg, Ind., plant.Related Stories
As a remedy, he soon may fire up Honda's Japan export engine.
In an interview with Automotive News, Hachigo said a blitz of key redesigns, starting this fall with the redesigned CR-V and continuing with updates to the Odyssey and Accord, will intensify the capacity problem.
"Let's say we reach 1.7 million [U.S. sales] this year, then we want to add on top of that next year with the new models coming in and such," Hachigo said.
His upbeat outlook contrasts with a forecast for total U.S. demand to be flat, at best, in 2017.
"If overseas plant capacity is getting close to full, then rather than make a new investment, we might think about getting more supply from another global plant," he said.
American Honda sold about 1.6 million vehicles in 2015, and Hachigo says he wants to keep stoking the increase by realigning production to feed more light trucks into the market.
Next year, Honda will add CR-V crossover production to its Greensburg, Ind., plant that makes the Civic and add Acura MDX crossover production to its East Liberty, Ohio, plant.
If those tweaks still don't satisfy demand, Hachigo said Honda will tap overseas factories. Honda's plant in Britain may send Civics to make room stateside for more CR-V output.
But more likely, Honda will tap its Japan plants for more CR-Vs or Civics.
"We'd like to utilize Japan production," he said.
Doing so would help Honda with a big headache of overcapacity in Japan.
Honda plans to add Acura MDX production to its East Liberty, Ohio, plant.
For years, when the yen was bumping against record highs, Honda dialed down exports from Japan to a bare trickle to offset the profit-eating impact of exchange-rate losses.
In 2015, Honda exported just 26,802 vehicles to North America, its biggest market.
But when Hachigo took the helm last year, he decided to make better use of excess capacity and cash in on a dramatic weakening of the yen. The currency's sudden slide in 2015 to its lowest levels in years against the dollar and other currencies made exporting profitable again.
Now Hachigo wants to ramp up Japan output. His goal is to produce 700,000 vehicles a year in Japan for sale domestically and another 100,000 to 200,000 for export.
"We are doing a lot of activities on the manufacturing side so we can be competitive exporting that 100,000 to 200,000 at the current foreign exchange rate," he said.
While American Honda sales were up 3.4 percent through September, outpacing an overall market that inched ahead just 0.3 percent, the sluggish Acura brand is still a sore point.
Sales at the company's luxury marque slumped 9.3 percent in the first nine months, with cars plunging 17 percent and even light trucks declining by 4.5 percent.
"I am not satisfied'
"Of course, I am not satisfied with the current results," Hachigo said of Acura.
Acura needs to reinforce its strength in light trucks while improving the appeal of its sedans by spicing up their design and driving performance, he said. Management, Hachigo promised, would be patient with Acura, focusing 1st on a solid foothold in the U.S. and China before rekindling the global expansion plans the brand jettisoned during the global financial crisis.
"Globally, we think the U.S. and China are the only regions where it is possible for us to cap the 2 pillars [of regional and global vehicles] with a luxury brand," he said. "For other regions, we want to build a solid business using the region-specific models and global models 1st."
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TacoBello (10-24-2016)
10-24-2016, 01:22 PM
#2490
"Of course, I am not satisfied with the current results," Hachigo said of Acura.
Acura needs to reinforce its strength in light trucks while improving the appeal of its sedans by spicing up their design and driving performance, he said. Management, Hachigo promised, would be patient with Acura, focusing 1st on a solid foothold in the U.S. and China before rekindling the global expansion plans the brand jettisoned during the global financial crisis.
Acura needs to reinforce its strength in light trucks while improving the appeal of its sedans by spicing up their design and driving performance, he said. Management, Hachigo promised, would be patient with Acura, focusing 1st on a solid foothold in the U.S. and China before rekindling the global expansion plans the brand jettisoned during the global financial crisis.
Almost 10 years of
cars (i.e. sedans) and steadily declining car (i.e. sedan) sales. Over 10 years of horribly declining flagship sedan sales. Almost 15 years without offering a coupe. Yeah, a coupe probably wouldn't sell as well as a sedan, but would a coupe have done as bad as or worse than the ZDX? I highly doubt it.
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10-24-2016, 01:53 PM
#2493
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Shxt I need to polish up my reading comprehension as my understanding from this article is that they want to do Acura sedans right in US and China before going global?
10-24-2016, 02:01 PM
#2494
Safety Car
Maybe all that patience is what they don't need....ineffective top management is leading to poor sales at Acura and a loss of enthusiasm and loss of competitiveness. But ultimately Honda is the big boss and so we'll see what they do in the next decade. They probably should stop doing so much PCP.....
10-24-2016, 02:04 PM
#2495
Team Owner
Fuck that. I am NOT waiting through another shitty decade for them to START getting their shit together.
Fuck you, Acura. I'm done.
Fuck you, Acura. I'm done.
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nist7 (10-24-2016)
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nist7 (10-24-2016)
10-24-2016, 02:13 PM
#2497
Team Owner
True, but the whole time I kept thinking I'd Come back to the brand, eventually. I've been a Honda and Acura fan since I got into cars. Honda is doing well for itself, but it has lost its sporty edge. Acura is just floating in the middle of outer space, spinning out of control with no idea what the fuck it's doing.
I've since bought a Mazda and a Nissan. The outlook doesn't look so good for when we go to replace wifey's car in a few years. Like many who've come and left AZ and moved on to other brands, I will be following in their footsteps.
Acura can take its precision crafted shit and ram it up their butthole.
I've since bought a Mazda and a Nissan. The outlook doesn't look so good for when we go to replace wifey's car in a few years. Like many who've come and left AZ and moved on to other brands, I will be following in their footsteps.
Acura can take its precision crafted shit and ram it up their butthole.
10-24-2016, 02:18 PM
#2499
True, but the whole time I kept thinking I'd Come back to the brand, eventually. I've been a Honda and Acura fan since I got into cars. Honda is doing well for itself, but it has lost its sporty edge. Acura is just floating in the middle of outer space, spinning out of control with no idea what the fuck it's doing.
I've since bought a Mazda and a Nissan. The outlook doesn't look so good for when we go to replace wifey's car in a few years. Like many who've come and left AZ and moved on to other brands, I will be following in their footsteps.
Acura can take its precision crafted shit and ram it up their butthole.
I've since bought a Mazda and a Nissan. The outlook doesn't look so good for when we go to replace wifey's car in a few years. Like many who've come and left AZ and moved on to other brands, I will be following in their footsteps.
Acura can take its precision crafted shit and ram it up their butthole.
and whenever i do need to buy a new ride, i'll just cruise the used market again and find something cooler than Honda.
10-24-2016, 02:21 PM
#2500
Team Owner
Seriously, at this point, even we know what needs to be done with Acura for it to be relevant again.
It's just the matter if Honda wants to stay stubborn and fail or they wanna roll with the market.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 10-24-2016 at 02:23 PM.
10-24-2016, 02:24 PM
#2501
Safety Car
If my 2006 Acura TL were to be stolen/totaled/ today, my #1 car on my list of replacement is: 2007-2008 Acura TL-S. And other variants of the 3G TL. Other than that offerings from Nissan/Toyota (Infiniti G, Lexus GS/IS) would have more appeal. 4G/5G TL/TLX are not going to be near anything on my list....unfortunately.
10-24-2016, 02:28 PM
#2502
Team Owner
waiting and waiting and waiting...
While im sure the civic will be a blast, it's not exactly the kind of car I'm looking to get for the wife. I don't know if she needs a full out track beast for DD use. Of course, this may all change, pending a test drive and such... Though I wonder how hard it will be to actually get one to test drive. I bet most dealers will flat out say no, for the first two years.
Personally, something the size of the TLX, is what I'd be looking for. Many brands are sporting 360-400hp cars, with forced induction. A quick tune update for $1500 and the power levels go way up. Currently, you can buy a TLX with 290hp... For $1500, you're probably sitting at 310hp, if you're lucky.
so a legitimate Type S with some actual gains, whether through electric motors of FI, would be nice. However, reliability is another key component. I'm not sold on the transmission issues being fixed properly, nor have the random vibration issues been thoroughly vetted.
While im sure the civic will be a blast, it's not exactly the kind of car I'm looking to get for the wife. I don't know if she needs a full out track beast for DD use. Of course, this may all change, pending a test drive and such... Though I wonder how hard it will be to actually get one to test drive. I bet most dealers will flat out say no, for the first two years.
Personally, something the size of the TLX, is what I'd be looking for. Many brands are sporting 360-400hp cars, with forced induction. A quick tune update for $1500 and the power levels go way up. Currently, you can buy a TLX with 290hp... For $1500, you're probably sitting at 310hp, if you're lucky.
so a legitimate Type S with some actual gains, whether through electric motors of FI, would be nice. However, reliability is another key component. I'm not sold on the transmission issues being fixed properly, nor have the random vibration issues been thoroughly vetted.
10-24-2016, 04:36 PM
#2503
Team Owner
waiting and waiting and waiting...
While im sure the civic will be a blast, it's not exactly the kind of car I'm looking to get for the wife. I don't know if she needs a full out track beast for DD use. Of course, this may all change, pending a test drive and such... Though I wonder how hard it will be to actually get one to test drive. I bet most dealers will flat out say no, for the first two years.
Personally, something the size of the TLX, is what I'd be looking for. Many brands are sporting 360-400hp cars, with forced induction. A quick tune update for $1500 and the power levels go way up. Currently, you can buy a TLX with 290hp... For $1500, you're probably sitting at 310hp, if you're lucky.
so a legitimate Type S with some actual gains, whether through electric motors of FI, would be nice. However, reliability is another key component. I'm not sold on the transmission issues being fixed properly, nor have the random vibration issues been thoroughly vetted.
While im sure the civic will be a blast, it's not exactly the kind of car I'm looking to get for the wife. I don't know if she needs a full out track beast for DD use. Of course, this may all change, pending a test drive and such... Though I wonder how hard it will be to actually get one to test drive. I bet most dealers will flat out say no, for the first two years.
Personally, something the size of the TLX, is what I'd be looking for. Many brands are sporting 360-400hp cars, with forced induction. A quick tune update for $1500 and the power levels go way up. Currently, you can buy a TLX with 290hp... For $1500, you're probably sitting at 310hp, if you're lucky.
so a legitimate Type S with some actual gains, whether through electric motors of FI, would be nice. However, reliability is another key component. I'm not sold on the transmission issues being fixed properly, nor have the random vibration issues been thoroughly vetted.
Give it a few more months, I think the Q50 300 or 400hp fits your requirement nicely if you are going to buy, not lease.
10-24-2016, 04:58 PM
#2504
Safety Car
Yeah the Q50 Red Sport is top of line IIRC with 400hp, should have another mid-tier performance model with 300hp.
Also IIRC Nissan did a concept car and fitted the GT-R motor into the Q50 sedan body...now that would've been awesome if it made into production haha....could be a V/M/AMG/RS-competitor.
Also IIRC Nissan did a concept car and fitted the GT-R motor into the Q50 sedan body...now that would've been awesome if it made into production haha....could be a V/M/AMG/RS-competitor.
10-24-2016, 05:06 PM
#2505
Team Owner
Yah that ship has sailed long time ago. If they did make it into product, it would be more than just a V/M/AMG/RS competitor.. It would have destroyed every single one of them.
10-24-2016, 06:35 PM
#2506
Team Owner
Yeah, but at what cost?
10-24-2016, 11:23 PM
#2507
Senior Moderator
A lot of you guys are reading the article at face value and aren't read "between the lines". Acura has been that lost teenager for the past 8-10 years and recently figured out what they want. Before the crisis, they wanted V10's and the crazy beak along with being a "tier" one brand like RR or Bentley. Now they are on the right track of being an entry level luxury brand or more commonly known as a Luxury honda. They are certainly moving away from the direction of being a Luxury Honda but the stigma will remain until Acura starts getting better tech before Honda all the time.
If Acura suddenly decided tomorrow to dump V8's it's cars and give folks everything they wanted, the resale of older models would plummet. Hyundai is a prime example of this.
In addition, many folks don't realize how long it takes honda/acura to perform R&D on "new" technology to ensure it lives up to their reputation. Transmissions aside, almost every single honda product i've seen hasn't have much of a design issue (beyond the oil consumption and vcm vibrations). Doing a ton of R&D on many different facets of a car isn't possible. It'd spread resources too thin and cause issues. Look at the TLX 9-spd. Engineers at Acura had about 3-6 months before release date to get the trans ready for the car. That's not a lot of time for a brand new transmission to Acura, and as well one that has 30% more speeds than anything they've ever used before. They've done well for what the situation was, but as everyone knows they suffered from growing pains.
The new MDX is selling very well, and the TLX is doing pretty well. RLX is selling terribly as always, so it'd be nice to see acura focus their efforts on revitalizing the whole brand rather than one or two core products. Adding the NSX (a decade + in the making) is certainly improving the brand image, but more is to be done. It certainly won't happen overnight but should be complete in the next decade (2 product cycles).
MDX and RDX is going to get a full redesign for the 2019 or 2020 year. TLX will be 2020 or 2021. If by 2021 they add a Coupe or two to add to their lineup and a much better flagship, Acura is going to really be on a roll. Execs did mention a new model every year starting with the 2017 NSX so I can only hope for a 2-Door in 2018
If Acura suddenly decided tomorrow to dump V8's it's cars and give folks everything they wanted, the resale of older models would plummet. Hyundai is a prime example of this.
In addition, many folks don't realize how long it takes honda/acura to perform R&D on "new" technology to ensure it lives up to their reputation. Transmissions aside, almost every single honda product i've seen hasn't have much of a design issue (beyond the oil consumption and vcm vibrations). Doing a ton of R&D on many different facets of a car isn't possible. It'd spread resources too thin and cause issues. Look at the TLX 9-spd. Engineers at Acura had about 3-6 months before release date to get the trans ready for the car. That's not a lot of time for a brand new transmission to Acura, and as well one that has 30% more speeds than anything they've ever used before. They've done well for what the situation was, but as everyone knows they suffered from growing pains.
The new MDX is selling very well, and the TLX is doing pretty well. RLX is selling terribly as always, so it'd be nice to see acura focus their efforts on revitalizing the whole brand rather than one or two core products. Adding the NSX (a decade + in the making) is certainly improving the brand image, but more is to be done. It certainly won't happen overnight but should be complete in the next decade (2 product cycles).
MDX and RDX is going to get a full redesign for the 2019 or 2020 year. TLX will be 2020 or 2021. If by 2021 they add a Coupe or two to add to their lineup and a much better flagship, Acura is going to really be on a roll. Execs did mention a new model every year starting with the 2017 NSX so I can only hope for a 2-Door in 2018
10-25-2016, 06:31 AM
#2508
A lot of you guys are reading the article at face value and aren't read "between the lines". Acura has been that lost teenager for the past 8-10 years and recently figured out what they want. Before the crisis, they wanted V10's and the crazy beak along with being a "tier" one brand like RR or Bentley. Now they are on the right track of being an entry level luxury brand or more commonly known as a Luxury honda. They are certainly moving away from the direction of being a Luxury Honda but the stigma will remain until Acura starts getting better tech before Honda all the time.
If Acura suddenly decided tomorrow to dump V8's it's cars and give folks everything they wanted, the resale of older models would plummet. Hyundai is a prime example of this.
In addition, many folks don't realize how long it takes honda/acura to perform R&D on "new" technology to ensure it lives up to their reputation. Transmissions aside, almost every single honda product i've seen hasn't have much of a design issue (beyond the oil consumption and vcm vibrations). Doing a ton of R&D on many different facets of a car isn't possible. It'd spread resources too thin and cause issues. Look at the TLX 9-spd. Engineers at Acura had about 3-6 months before release date to get the trans ready for the car. That's not a lot of time for a brand new transmission to Acura, and as well one that has 30% more speeds than anything they've ever used before. They've done well for what the situation was, but as everyone knows they suffered from growing pains.
If Acura suddenly decided tomorrow to dump V8's it's cars and give folks everything they wanted, the resale of older models would plummet. Hyundai is a prime example of this.
In addition, many folks don't realize how long it takes honda/acura to perform R&D on "new" technology to ensure it lives up to their reputation. Transmissions aside, almost every single honda product i've seen hasn't have much of a design issue (beyond the oil consumption and vcm vibrations). Doing a ton of R&D on many different facets of a car isn't possible. It'd spread resources too thin and cause issues. Look at the TLX 9-spd. Engineers at Acura had about 3-6 months before release date to get the trans ready for the car. That's not a lot of time for a brand new transmission to Acura, and as well one that has 30% more speeds than anything they've ever used before. They've done well for what the situation was, but as everyone knows they suffered from growing pains.
lemme stop you right there.
That's not what we want
we want a beautiful sexy sport sedan/coupe that is competitive with its peers.
drops mic.
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fsttyms1 (10-25-2016)
10-25-2016, 09:01 AM
#2509
Would offering a V8 really affect resale much? Have you seen RLX resale prices?
It's almost like you're saying Acura shouldn't take a big step forward to improve their cars for fear of affecting resale prices on older models. Hyundai (now Genesis) took a chance, made big changes and look where they are now.... their brand image, perception, and reputation has improved, sales continue to grow, etc.
If Acura were to take a chance and they somehow fail, then they can at least say they tried and will have something to learn from. Staying at Honda+ (i.e. stagnant) isn't a solution to their problems.
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fsttyms1 (10-25-2016)
10-25-2016, 09:02 AM
#2510
I'm not saying Acura needs to put a V8 into their cars. What I am saying is that their cars need improvements that will differentiate them away from an everyday Honda. Honda+ just doesn't work for their sedans.
Would offering a V8 really affect resale much? Have you seen RLX resale prices?
It's almost like you're saying Acura shouldn't take a big step forward to improve their cars for fear of affecting resale prices on older models. Hyundai (now Genesis) took a chance, made big changes and look where they are now.... their brand image, perception, and reputation has improved, sales continue to grow, etc.
If Acura were to take a chance and they somehow fail, then they can at least say they tried and will have more data to learn from. Staying at Honda+ (i.e. stagnant) isn't a solution to their problems.
Would offering a V8 really affect resale much? Have you seen RLX resale prices?
It's almost like you're saying Acura shouldn't take a big step forward to improve their cars for fear of affecting resale prices on older models. Hyundai (now Genesis) took a chance, made big changes and look where they are now.... their brand image, perception, and reputation has improved, sales continue to grow, etc.
If Acura were to take a chance and they somehow fail, then they can at least say they tried and will have more data to learn from. Staying at Honda+ (i.e. stagnant) isn't a solution to their problems.
the 4G TL.
LOL
10-25-2016, 11:39 AM
#2511
You'll Never Walk Alone
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waiting and waiting and waiting...
While im sure the civic will be a blast, it's not exactly the kind of car I'm looking to get for the wife. I don't know if she needs a full out track beast for DD use. Of course, this may all change, pending a test drive and such... Though I wonder how hard it will be to actually get one to test drive. I bet most dealers will flat out say no, for the first two years.
Personally, something the size of the TLX, is what I'd be looking for. Many brands are sporting 360-400hp cars, with forced induction. A quick tune update for $1500 and the power levels go way up. Currently, you can buy a TLX with 290hp... For $1500, you're probably sitting at 310hp, if you're lucky.
so a legitimate Type S with some actual gains, whether through electric motors of FI, would be nice. However, reliability is another key component. I'm not sold on the transmission issues being fixed properly, nor have the random vibration issues been thoroughly vetted.
While im sure the civic will be a blast, it's not exactly the kind of car I'm looking to get for the wife. I don't know if she needs a full out track beast for DD use. Of course, this may all change, pending a test drive and such... Though I wonder how hard it will be to actually get one to test drive. I bet most dealers will flat out say no, for the first two years.
Personally, something the size of the TLX, is what I'd be looking for. Many brands are sporting 360-400hp cars, with forced induction. A quick tune update for $1500 and the power levels go way up. Currently, you can buy a TLX with 290hp... For $1500, you're probably sitting at 310hp, if you're lucky.
so a legitimate Type S with some actual gains, whether through electric motors of FI, would be nice. However, reliability is another key component. I'm not sold on the transmission issues being fixed properly, nor have the random vibration issues been thoroughly vetted.
Yeah the Q50 Red Sport is top of line IIRC with 400hp, should have another mid-tier performance model with 300hp.
Also IIRC Nissan did a concept car and fitted the GT-R motor into the Q50 sedan body...now that would've been awesome if it made into production haha....could be a V/M/AMG/RS-competitor.
Also IIRC Nissan did a concept car and fitted the GT-R motor into the Q50 sedan body...now that would've been awesome if it made into production haha....could be a V/M/AMG/RS-competitor.
I've always thought the Q50 is a nice looking car. And with the 400hp engine, it's pretty much the fastest in this segment too. But it's pretty darn heavy even in RWD form at 3900lb.
From the reviews thus far, the Red Sport sounds like a power car but isn't all that rewarding to drive. I've read how its interior doesn't quite match up its sporty image. And the optional DAS is still a work in progress.
It's also weird that for a 400hp sedan, it still has an open diff. The G37 used to have LSD with much less power.
If you can look past its luxury interior (rather than sporty), I'm guessing it's best to get one with the standard steering system and then add an aftermarket LSD. It might be pretty decent.
Like csmeance said, we will see what Acura will show us in the coming years.
10-25-2016, 01:20 PM
#2512
Safety Car
If it can be in competitive range as the other high performance sport sedans....ie 80-90kish. But reading the wiki for the GT-R sedan concept looks like they couldn't fit the transmission into the sedan platform and had to resort to a Q70 AWD transmission. So probably would've been too expensive to develop/support as a product line...
No kidding. One can only dream now....or if a super rich person has the inclination to do a custom/personal GT-R drivetrain swap....
10-25-2016, 01:59 PM
#2513
Senior Moderator
At the current rate Acura is figuring things out, we will hear the chirp of dead crickets first. Being Patient isnt what they need. The need to clean house, and actually start doing what they Advertise and keep telling us at these shows/press briefings. They arent Precision crafted, They arent that kind of Thrill. They need design, and substance to be taken seriously and to compete. They are lacking in both.
The following 3 users liked this post by fsttyms1:
10-25-2016, 02:13 PM
#2514
Team Owner
And that's why I left Acura! 
Well, save for the one I have now, but it is a decade old... and I surely won't be buying another.
Well, save for the one I have now, but it is a decade old... and I surely won't be buying another.
10-25-2016, 02:21 PM
#2515
Safety Car
At the current rate Acura is figuring things out, we will hear the chirp of dead crickets first. Being Patient isnt what they need. The need to clean house, and actually start doing what they Advertise and keep telling us at these shows/press briefings. They arent Precision crafted, They arent that kind of Thrill. They need design, and substance to be taken seriously and to compete. They are lacking in both.
The following users liked this post:
TacoBello (10-26-2016)
10-25-2016, 10:13 PM
#2517
Senior Moderator
Agreed. I wouldn't have the same amount of patience as the current Honda bosses do. But then again Japanese/asians in general are known to prioritize face-saving rather than public shame...so in the PR realm he says that but maybe they will start putting down ultimatums behind closed doors of their board room...one would hope.
10-26-2016, 11:33 AM
#2518
Team Owner
It used to be cool to drive a Honda or Acura in my HS days, Those were the cars to get.
Now... it is definitely not the same anymore for young kids.
It could be the next generation is different, and Honda/Acura did not keep up
Or it could be the cars are different, the next generation does not find it exciting.
Either way, it is Honda/Acura's fault since you can't blame the buyers. Or can you??? SSFTSX?
Now... it is definitely not the same anymore for young kids.
It could be the next generation is different, and Honda/Acura did not keep up
Or it could be the cars are different, the next generation does not find it exciting.
Either way, it is Honda/Acura's fault since you can't blame the buyers. Or can you??? SSFTSX?
The following users liked this post:
fsttyms1 (10-26-2016)
10-26-2016, 01:28 PM
#2519
Team Owner
Problem is is that every year that goes by they are loosing the old die-hard brand loyal generation of honda buyers that have grown up, tastes have matured, and make more money and have moved on to brands that do offer what they want. Eventually they will loose too many of their base of people who no matter what are brand loyal and willing to wait and they will start to see greater declines if they don't act soon. They NEED to stop resting on their laurels and get with the times. I once considered myself brand loyal only to Honda products but have since looked/purchased elsewhere. I'm still willing to look but with much less affection than before, the things that drew me in before simply aren't there anymore, everyone else has seemingly stepped up their game while they keep being patient spending decades trying to figure things out.
It used to be cool to drive a Honda or Acura in my HS days, Those were the cars to get.
Now... it is definitely not the same anymore for young kids.
It could be the next generation is different, and Honda/Acura did not keep up
Or it could be the cars are different, the next generation does not find it exciting.
Either way, it is Honda/Acura's fault since you can't blame the buyers. Or can you??? SSFTSX?
Now... it is definitely not the same anymore for young kids.
It could be the next generation is different, and Honda/Acura did not keep up
Or it could be the cars are different, the next generation does not find it exciting.
Either way, it is Honda/Acura's fault since you can't blame the buyers. Or can you??? SSFTSX?
Honda was what got me into cars, back in high school. These days there is at least 5 other brands I'd consider before Acura/Honda, and this, coming from a diehard fan. It's sad, really.
The following users liked this post:
fsttyms1 (10-26-2016)
10-26-2016, 03:52 PM
#2520
AZ Community Team
I would agree Acura sedans have been a failure for the last decade, but to lump Acura SUV's and Honda in saying that they are also failing is not true.
Sales stats that show Honda's US market share consistently growing in the last 15 years.
Year
U.S. Total Market Sales
2002 16,848,180
2003 16,675,648
2004 16,913,361
2005 16,997,203
2006 16,560,989
2007 16,154,064
2008 13,245,718
2009 10,431,510
2010 11,589,844
2011 12,778,885
2012 14,492,398
2013 15,582,136
2014 16,531,070
2015 17,470,659
2016 YTD * 13,101,286
Year
Honda
Motor Company
U.S. Sales
2002 1,247,834
2003 1,349,847
2004 1,394,398
2005 1,464,472
2006 1,509,358
2007 1,551,542
2008 1,428,765
2009 1,150,784
2010 1,230,480
2011 1,147,285
2012 1,422,785
2013 1,525,312
2014 1,540,872
2015 1,586,551
2016 YTD * 1,228,380
I'm not happy that there's no decent Acura sedans or not coupes or Prelude. But times change and so do car buying trends as well.
Honda/Acura were extremely late to the minivan/SUV market but today the CRV is the small SUV leader and the MDX, Oddy and Pilot also sell very well and well received in review and media.
So to say Honda is failing behind is just plain wrong, the Civic, Accord and CRV are #6,7,8 in overall US sales of all vehicles. The only sedans ahead are the Camry and Corolla.
Honda has changed with the market and times fairly well, can't say that for Acura. The SUV's are keeping them going.
There's some hope in the NSX, I think they executed the design very well. It could use some improvements, but overall it is the Japanese peer to the Audi R8 hence with more technology.
As for the sedans at Acura, I woulda though some improvement would have happened by now. The 4G TL rolled out 9 years ago, and I would have though the TLX and RLX would have been better.
Honda is performing very well with their products, sometimes I feel some on these forums wax nostalgia too much.
Automakers need to roll with the times, and Honda has done that.
Maybe not what enthusiast or some on here want but they've survived in difficult times in the last tens years, something many automakers who went bankrupt or were bought out can't say.
Sales stats that show Honda's US market share consistently growing in the last 15 years.
Year
U.S. Total Market Sales
2002 16,848,180
2003 16,675,648
2004 16,913,361
2005 16,997,203
2006 16,560,989
2007 16,154,064
2008 13,245,718
2009 10,431,510
2010 11,589,844
2011 12,778,885
2012 14,492,398
2013 15,582,136
2014 16,531,070
2015 17,470,659
2016 YTD * 13,101,286
Year
Honda
Motor Company
U.S. Sales
2002 1,247,834
2003 1,349,847
2004 1,394,398
2005 1,464,472
2006 1,509,358
2007 1,551,542
2008 1,428,765
2009 1,150,784
2010 1,230,480
2011 1,147,285
2012 1,422,785
2013 1,525,312
2014 1,540,872
2015 1,586,551
2016 YTD * 1,228,380
I'm not happy that there's no decent Acura sedans or not coupes or Prelude. But times change and so do car buying trends as well.
Honda/Acura were extremely late to the minivan/SUV market but today the CRV is the small SUV leader and the MDX, Oddy and Pilot also sell very well and well received in review and media.
So to say Honda is failing behind is just plain wrong, the Civic, Accord and CRV are #6,7,8 in overall US sales of all vehicles. The only sedans ahead are the Camry and Corolla.
Honda has changed with the market and times fairly well, can't say that for Acura. The SUV's are keeping them going.
There's some hope in the NSX, I think they executed the design very well. It could use some improvements, but overall it is the Japanese peer to the Audi R8 hence with more technology.
As for the sedans at Acura, I woulda though some improvement would have happened by now. The 4G TL rolled out 9 years ago, and I would have though the TLX and RLX would have been better.
Honda is performing very well with their products, sometimes I feel some on these forums wax nostalgia too much.
Automakers need to roll with the times, and Honda has done that.
Maybe not what enthusiast or some on here want but they've survived in difficult times in the last tens years, something many automakers who went bankrupt or were bought out can't say.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 10-26-2016 at 04:04 PM.