Costco

Acura has always paid attention to the demand for RWD, its just that they don't care. There are probably dozens of Honda/Acura and probably Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti representatives seeing whats popular and what we want. Why do you think so many people in the 3G TL forums said "hey, they made the TL-S look like my car!"

AZ has been around for what, 7+ years now? As long as people buy their cars and they make money from it, they honestly don't care. In addition, I have my doubts that Acura can even compete with BMW if they introduce a RWD platform for sedans, they simply don't have enough engine choices, and they keep the same engine(s) for the entire lifespan of a model.

stright-(paint)balling

I 2nd this post and i live in Ohio also
if i'm going out in the winter i prefer a AWD or FWD car
if it's gonna be on track i'd prefer a AWD or RWD.
I don't see Honda going to RWD(with the exception of the S2K)
anytime soon.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's a good question. It seems like Honda/Acura wants to go that route. It's like Lexus is becoming/has become the Japanese Mercedes, Infinity is trying to be the Japanese BMW, while Acura is aimming to be Japanese Audi. I can't think of any RWD Audi in production right now. Of course, if Acura really wanted to become the Japanese Audi, they should start making V8 and V10 powered cars.

shrykhar

R8.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ Audi R8 is AWD.

Jackygor

Well, he does have some truth in what he is saying. I believe R8 uses the new RWD biased AWD chassis/system.

Actually I think the new A4 and A5 will also have a RWD biased AWD chassis/system.

Audi is definitely kicking it up a notch with there new quattro.

I wish Acura would make some RWD car

Python2121

I usually leave Audi alone because every car they produce has awd available, can't say the same about Acura. I am fine with producing FWD, so long as they have AWD available.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Ah, then that's true, RWD biased AWD. Acura DID make a RWD car but it was just too $$ for most people...

May be we should wait a a year or so and see what the next gen TL/TSX gonna be like, they will probably have AWD as option or standard..it's too early to tell right now..

Anyways, I wouldn't mind having SH-AWD though, even if it's FWD biased, the torque vectoring idea really works, I have a feeling that if the system is RWD biased, the torque vectoring thing would be redundant, as in making the car oversteer way too much. But hey, putting SH-AWD in is better than plain old FWD right?

Mokos23

Acura will never go RWD until there is a change in the Honda Japanese CEO gets canned and if the Honda/Acura US CEO Dick Cullver and John Mandel get canned.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

and Honda is too small as a company to have that many platforms..I doubt that Honda would want to repeat the failure Nissan had years ago...Toyota is a big company, no doubt it can have several platforms; Nissan, it got the financial help from Renault; Mazda has Ford, Subaru, all of their cars are AWD anyways...hmm it seems like Honda one of the few brands that are not partially owned by other companies..

shrykhar

Oops.

I almost said something similar about the Ridgeline being RWD ...

shrykhar

Any idea what the life of the clutch pack in the SH-AWD system is like? It can't be cheap to replace.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

hmm...I don't know, but I'd imagine that it would last for a while, probably the life span of the car? I am not sure at all though. However, SH-AWD isn't the first system to use clutches to transfer torque for AWD purposes. Porsche 959 and Nissan GTR have used active LSD (which have multi-plate clutch sytems too) for transferring torque between front and rear, it's just that for SH-AWD it uses clutches to transfer torque between left and right.

So about the lifespan, for the system on a Porsche 959, even though there's always slippage the energy loss is very small due to the tiny speed difference. And for wear, the clutch size has been designed so that the wear is negligible for the whole lifespan of the car. So I'd think this would also be true for the SH-AWD.

Edward'TLS

I was being sarcastic, because whatever Acura is doing right now doesn't seem like it truly wants to be a luxury car brand.

Edward'TLS

Cadillac and Infinity are two other car companies that also want to take part in the luxury car business. So when Cadiilac is going for an all RWD lineup, and Lexus and Infitinity have long since deleted their last FWD models, doesn't that ring the bell, Acura ?

Edward'TLS

Honda has no problem. Honda is doing extreme well as an economy car brand. It doesn't need to go RWD.

Only Acura has a problem, because it wants to be recogized as a luxury brand but missing the necessary features common to luxury brand models. Take a good look at the successful luxury brands. Base model RWD, with AWD and V8 as options. So most people can go for the cheaper, lighter, and faster RWD models, and those who have to go harsh winters will benefit from the AWD option. This way everyone is happy. You just can't stuff an AWD car into the throats of car buyers who live in the ever-sunny states. Acura does with its AWD RL and is failing badly.

Edward'TLS

The point is Audi is a recognized luxury brand and have no problem even selling the $70K+ A8. So why should anyone attack Audi. It has no problem. Only if it wants to rival Maybach and Bentley, then perhaps it'll have a problem. A well recognized luxury brand like Audi can just about sell anything it builds.

However, Acura always wants to but still fails to become one. People simply won't accept the $50K AWD RL.

The infamous Audi Quattro AWD was 1st introduced in the 1980's, whereas the SH-AWD is brand new. Audi generously offers V6, V8, and Quattro AWD into all its model lineup. Even the subcompact A3 has the 3.2L-V6 and Quattro options, whereas for Acura the highest output 3.5L-V6 is only available on the bigger, heaviest, and power-robbing AWD RL sedan. The Audi S and the RS high performance model trims are available on all car lines, with available high output turbos, V6, V8 and V10 engines, which put to shame the few bolt-on aero appearance trims available in top trim Acura cars.

In addition, just to cater to the cost-cautious buyers that never need AWD traction, Audi make available FWD on base models whose engine output is < ~300hp. Only bove ~300hp, AWD becomes standard equipment. Each model has at least two engine choices. This way Audi can capture a wider range of car buyers, not like Acura in the RL case it's either the expensive 3.5L-V6 AWD or no car.

All this doesn't mean Acura is not doing well. Acura is doing very well in the luxury -wannabe segment (halfway between economy and true luxury) moving sub-$50K cars. But this is not Honda want Acura to be. Honda wants Acura to become a true luxury brand, and falls short of doing so.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^ that's a very good analysis. One that thing really seperates Honda/Acura with Audi is that, Audi has the financial backup from Volkswagon group. Honda is alone. Other luxury brands, they are either dedicated in making luxury cars only, or they have other companies supporting them. BMW, Audi, MB are all luxury car makers for a long time; Lexus has Toyota, which is now the 2nd largest (if not the biggest) car maker; Infiniti has Nissan, which is backed up by Renault; Cadillac obviously has GM..so..no wonder all the other makers can easily invest in dedicated RWD platforms and engines for their cars. Now look at Audi again, its V10 engines can be shared with Lambourgini, its V8s can be shared among a lot of their cars. But Honda, that's more difficult for them. Acura does not have a lot of models, it would be great if they could offer more models/trims, but Honda just does not have the money to do so. Even if they do, they are not sure if they will be profitable or not.

Edward'TLS

The Acura brand has been setting off on the wrong foot from the very beginning. It started off with a V6 FWD halo (or flagship or top-of-the-line) car which put it squarely in the near-luxury catergory, and is still stuck this way. However, Lexus kicked off with its V8 RWD halo which landed right in the true-luxury catergory. Remember that the LS400 was a bargain at $40K when it was first introduced. It was received well, and the Lexus brand gradually (remember gradually, not the next day) become better known (even though the ES250 had nothing to be cheered at). Now 17 years later, the LS460 ranges from $60K and top at $100K.

Even for the biggest car company in Japan - Toyota, it takes them 17 years to build the Lexus brand up to the current status, and they had been setting off with the right foot.

So if Acura starts to release bargain RWD, V6, V8 or V10 cars now and with good marketing strategy, it may have a chance to become a true luxury marque in hopefully 10-15 years time. If Acura doesn't or if Honda don't have the money for Acura to do so, then don't even bother trying to elevate the Acura brand because Acura will never have a chance to become a true luxury marque. Maybe Honda is really too small a car company to offer a true luxury car line.

Rome wasn't built in one day. But if you don't start building it right, it will never get done.

TSX69

I understand that Honda is smaller than Toyota & what not, but I would think that after all these years that they could afford to make a RWD platform - especially if they could spread it among cars in their typical fashion to recoup costs.

According to LeftLaneNews , they just made 1.83 Billion in profit this year up until July. That is a 63% increase in earnings. I realize that Honda, unlike other manufacturers, makes a lot more than cars like planes, motorcycles, robots etc etc but that seems like enough to make a RWD platform if they wanted to.

The other part I do not understand is that they did make one for the NSX & the S2000 - both low volume cars which I think serve as the halo for their prospective brands. For a normally cost conservative company, this seems like a big investment w/ little return.

I do not know much about platforms but could they not whore out those RWD platforms to other cars like they do the Accord platform? If not, they maybe they will design the net generation to be able to ...

I, like I think the average person, do not care if my car has RWD but I think that Acura should have @ least 1 since its competitors seem to have several. AWD, for those who do not need it, can seem like a waste of $$$.

SiGGy

Coming back? It never went away in the luxury sports area. Where Acura is supposedly focused on...

I'd guess everything will go SH-AWD. But that will hurt fuel economy.

Motohip

I think AWD will be standard on all cars in the near future.

I would bet money that the next generation of Acura cars will be the new benchmark.

mrdeeno

fixed.

dom

Edward'TLS

AWD is expensive, complicated, heavy, and power-robbing compared to simple FWD and RWD solutions. People living in sunny states and in states with mild winter don't need it and don't want it.

Nowadays most car makers are going GREEN, and work real hard to squeeze as much mileage out of a gallon of gas. Plus the fact that lawmakers are really into pushing hard to increase CAFE whenever possible. All these are directly against the widespread implementation of AWD. AWD may remain to be an upgrade option. But I don't see any slim possibility that AWD will become standard in all future cars.

Motohip

Ok, so maybe not near future. But because it is safer, I can see it it being just like ABS or airbags.

Motohip

Don't laugh at me! I'm trying to be optimistic!

Mokos23

Acura isn't paying attention cause they have ADD.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The first Legend was very successful, it won Car and Driver's Ten Best three years in a row and Motor Trend's "Import Car of the Year" for 1987. It was the 3.5RL that screwed up Acura. Even back then it had a lot of technical innovations. It was the first car to be engineered by CAD, the first car to have a navigation system, and I believe, not 100% though, it's the first car to have dual airbags. Other less significant, but still important features were 24v V6 engine, 4-wheel double wishbone suspension, 4-wheel disc brakes etc. The 2nd generation continued the success of the 1st gen, and came with speed-sensitive steering, hands-free telephone, automatic climate control, heated leather seats, heated mirrors, 4-wheel ABS disc brakes. I also believe those 2 generations were one of the few flagship models that offered 6 speed manual transmission.

Again, Acura really set itself apart back then, not exactly a luxury marque, but more to the sporty luxury side, along with the integra. The 3.5RL was the main reason why Acura did not grow.

Honda just invested to come up with SH-AWD but it did not pay attention to marketing. A lot of people don't even know how it works, or at least what the benefits are compared with other systems. Even the members here don't know the system well. IMO if they want to put SH-AWD in all of their cars, they need to advertise it better, A LOT better.

ostrich

Actually, I do agree with your points about Audi. I don't disagree with you at all. However, my point is that when people seem to be attacking Acura mostly for its lack of RWD, and pay very little attention to the other things that really put an automobile in the luxury class. You have done a good job pointing them out. BUT!!!! The lack of RWD certainly does seem to be only a small point in your well-written paragraphs.

Gosh, what's wrong with the rest of us who want/need a nicely appointed car with FWD or AWD in the snow!? Sigh.....

mrdeeno

Audi A6 sales aren't so great.

mrdeeno

Porsche was the first to have dual airbags in its 944 in 1987.

Edward'TLS

Ostrich, you've got to understand. AWD/Quattro are expensive. They add unnecessary cost to the price of the car, especially that Acura buyers are not willing to accept too expensive an Acura. The majority of the wealthy car buying population is in the south, such as California, LA, Forida, Miami, etc., where there's hardly any winter let alone snow. So they just need two wheel drive cars.

For those who must have AWD traction in the snow belt belong only to a very small proportion, but they are not neglected. Luxury brands like BMW and MB that use RWD on the base model offer AWD option in increasing number of model lines.

As always, luxury cars almost always come with big horsepower (>300hp), and RWD becomes the best choice. FWD can't handle >300hp, and AWD is heavy and expensive. A two wheel drive car will always outrun an AWD counterpart given the same engine, unless in the rain or snow. But once again there's hardly any rain or snow in the ever-sunny southern states where most of the wealthy car buying population is located.

In Audi's case, people are willing to pay the Quattro option premium because everyone knows an Audi is an expensive car and the Audi brand is a luxury brand which carries prestiege. In BMW and MB's case, people are buying the cheaper RWD's, and those who drive in snow or who have lots of money to burn will go for the AWD option.

In Acura's case, people are not accepting a $50K Acura, and having AWD as standard equipment only worsen the situation. By removing AWD and making most standard equipment such as navigation optional, the price of the RL could have dropped to ~$40K which becomes more attractive. But Acura can't do that, because the lack of RWD hardware in Acura's stable. Putting 300hp on the front wheels only makes the car handle like crap. So Acura is completely stuck and the RL flops. If available, RWD could perhaps save the RL because it becomes cheaper, lighter, and faster; and SH-AWD available as an option to cater to the small percentage of snow belt drivers.

Now is it clear that how the lack of RWD is seriously hampering Acura from moving upmarket.

alex2364

You're forgetting the northeast sector of the U.S. The area from Washington DC to Boston is very rich. I have 6 BMW dealers to choose from in my area alone.

ostrich

Edward'TLS, I think that you have raised an interesting point. Your argument is that no matter what, the consumers will not pay premium/luxury car prices for Acura products - so if that is the case, Acura's decision to not include RWD in their line-up probably is wise and cost-effective. They are successful in their own segment. So why then should they change their strategy, just because a few enthusiasts are screaming at them over the internet?

I know it's really a chicken-and-egg argument, but one can really argue both ways.

BTW, may I respectfully disagree that most of the wealthiest people live in those southern states - I am sure that the snowy northeast has a huge % of the most affluent people in this country!!! :-) I have no data to support myself here though... !

Edward'TLS

The fact is right now, consumers are not paying $50K for an Acura sedan (except the NSX supercar). But if it were a $40K 300hp V6 RWD sedan, it will certainly attracts a whole lot more buyers because it's cheaper, lighter, and faster than what we have now. But by including the expensive AWD hardware in the package, I don't see how Acura can acheive the $40K goal. However, Acura can always offer the SH-AWD option for additional cost. That should take care of the few harsh winter drivers.

You are correct that Acura is successful in it's own segment - the luxury-wannabe segment which is midway between economy and true-luxury. But this is not what Honda wants Acura to be in. Again and again Honda stressed that it wanted to elevate the Acura brand to be a true-luxury marque. Remember this is what Honda wants to achieve. Not me or you's evil plan, or a few enthusiasts' screams.

But without V8 and RWD hardware which are the basic ingredients for luxury auto brands, Acura can hardly move an inch towards the true-luxury marque goal. So if Honda doesn't change the Acura strategy, Acura will never ever be able to move upmarket.

It's no longer a chicken-and-egg argument. Remember how Lexus achieve what they have today. The LS400 was introduced at a bargain $40K seventeen years ago. It was a bargain, it was well built, it was well equipped, it had V8 and RWD. It was received well, it had gain fame. So price gradually goes up year after year, so does the Lexus brand recognition. Now the LS460 starts from $60K, and the Lexus brand is among the luxury brands. Most importantly, it has cars that can compete with the other luxury brands . . . . 17 years, no less.

So if Acura steps the first foot out of the rotton mold now with RWD and high power V6 (preferably V8 to follow), then together with good marketing strategy, it may have a good chance to become a true-luxury marque in 10-15 years time.

Jackygor

Just trying to chimp in!

(I am pretty sure this has been mentioned before)

Another example would be infiniti, once they revamped the whole line-up with RWD, they are doing great in the luxo car segment! Well, they could do better if they actually have a flag-ship, but thats not the point. Even BMW thinks that the G coupe and sedan is a great threat to their 3 series (their butter and bread), that is not something easily achievable. Look at Infiniti's line-up right now, full of RWD V6 and V8 and it took around 5 years? Correct me if I am wrong.

Another point I would like to bring up (if it hasn't been brought up already) is that, yes, Acura is doing really well in this luxo-car-wannabe segment, they sell tons of cars, making good money, but you know what is even better? going upper market (with the help of RWD V8-V10) and sell the same amount of cars! I think Acura/Honda should be a bit less conservative and go for it, they should really put their racing heritage to use.

My point is that I don't think it is too late for Acura to enter the REAL luxo car segment with V8 and RWD.

Time will tell, I hope Acura will surprise us with their next gen line-up of cars.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, take that off the list but the Legend still had quite a lot of technical features that were rather rare in those days.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I believe Infiniti used RWD a long time ago, even the first gen Q45, much like the LS400, was RWD, and yet it failed miserably in terms of sales. The previous Infiniti M was also RWD, but it didn't sell very well as well. Of course, neither the FWD G and J did very well, it was probably the image. And as we all know, it was the G35 that brought Infiniti up.

I am not sure about the States, but the RDX here in Canada starts at $42k and it already comes with 240hp and SH-AWD. I would imagine that's roughly 33k in the States, which is well below $40k mark. IMO I don't think it will be hard that Honda/Acura can make a $40k 300hp SH-AWD sedan. Sure it will add weight, but Honda probably doesn't want to go head to head against BMW, Infiniti, MB, etc. It would be too risky. Honda definitely wants Acura to move up though, as proved by the deletion of the RSX, which had good sale record.

Edward'TLS

Oh yeh, there is definitely more profit in selling a true-luxury car vs selling a near-luxury car. In other words, one can make the same amount of profit by selling a smaller volume of expensive luxury cars. That's why all car makers are so eager to pitching to reap the profits by creating a luxury brand of their own. But you've got to have the right hardware to do the job.