ttribe

Yeah, I know. It's just a colloquialism.

oonowindoo

They did not Scrap it. it was just renamed with the old crap

and you were wondering why no one is buying Infiniti? take a look at the sales #s of G series. Compare the #s from 2003-2013 when the G series were offered and compare them to when they did not give what the consumers wanted.

and mind you, they were $40k in 2003 when i got mine and it was not even fully loaded.

Infiniti G Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

AZuser

Seems their cars are selling pretty well vs ..... umm...

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

yeah I'm aware of that. I meant the g moniker.

infiniti sales went up, but they still have very little market share overall.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

those two, sure. 4tl and rl/rlx aren't huge sellers for acura though.

TacoBello

Market share doesn't change over night. They've done pretty well thus far, especially considering the price point of their vehicles.

oonowindoo

Infiniti kinda fuked themselves up with the name change and the lack of updated engines.

Hey at least they fired that guy now.

They have a chance with the Q60 (new engine/new look) or they can just dig a hole and die slowly if they fuck up Q60.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm this is becoming an interesting discussion.

I know Acura doesn't have any cars dedicated for the enthusiasts right now. I know that for some of their models, color options are severely limited. But is it fair to say that Honda/Acura never listens to the customers? People complained the 2012 Civic is crap, so Honda made tons of changes to the 2013 model. People complained the ILX is weak, so now there's a much improved powertrain. People used to complain how Acura models were always FWD. Acura responded with AWD, and later SH-AWD. Acura came out with the atrocious beak with the 2009. People didn't like it. Acura responded by toning down the beak and making subtle changes. Nowadays, I don't know if I can still call it a beak, it's really up for debate. Let's just say the grille is no longer the talking point nowadays.

Some will say, "oh Honda screwed up with the CIvic/ILX/etc, so they HAD to change things." True, but Infiniti also screwed up with the steering, so they had to make the change too, no? I want a V6 Mazda 6, why they don't build me one? I want to buy a 320i with the M Sport package, is it possible? I want estoril blue metallic as the exterior color for the 320i, can I do so?

This is not to say Honda always listens to the customers, and other brands don't listen. I'm just providing examples to show that sometimes car manufacturers would listen, sometimes, they don't. To say that a company never listens or would never do such and such would be a bit of a stretch.

oonowindoo

The problem with what you said is... Acura's AWD is still FWD.

When was ILX released? and what year is it now?

Acura's beak is still there. It has a new name now, the shield. Apparently even Captain America prefers his choice of weapon to be an import.

If you want a M sport package that badly then spend a few thousand more for 328.

But if i want a real sport package for any cars in Acura now, it does not matter how much more i am willing to spend, it still does not exist.

and FYI, if you are willing to spend $5000, BMW will paint your 320 to any color of your choice from BMW factory.

ttribe

Also, I believe BMW will paint your car in a color not offered on the main pallet for an additional fee (of course).

oonowindoo

yah i did say it in my post but you did not quote it.

For $5000.

ttribe

Oops. Sorry.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

There's a $5.5k premium for the RLX to get eSH-AWD. Applying the same price premium would see a TLX-S Tech for $47k and TLX-S Advance for $50k.

Like some people here have said, whether the car sells or not isn't a big issue. The idea is to have a halo trim for the TLX line so the lesser models sell more. Just like how 335i is the halo model but the most popular trims are the 320i and 328i. Whether Acura could succeed on that would depend on the marketing (which I have no confidence in) effort.

A fully loaded 375hp TLX-S with the proper suspension, brakes, styling, etc for $50k would still be cheaper than many competitors. It might be heavier but the extra power should compensate. It's just a suggestion anyway.

FWD based AWD, I don't know if that matters much. It's like saying, hey BMW, I want a FWD 5 series, make me one. I don't think they will do that, right?

The original claim was Honda and Acura never listens. At what time the changes are made for the ILX is another topic. The claim should then be, Acura takes too long to make changes, not NEVER listens to customers. Correct?

Like I said, the beak, the shield, the grille, whatever it's called, it's not like Acura is sticking with the same 4G TL design, right? There are different demands for that. Some (like you) demand getting rid of the beak completely and do a complete redesign. Some simply requested Acura to tone down the design. In that case, to people like you, then they aren't listening to your request. But for the other group, that's listening.

If you want a M sport package that badly then spend a few thousand more for 328. Well, then should we tell SamDoe1 to upgrade to a different Accord trim to get the color combo that he wants? Would anyone buying an Accord pay $5k to get the color combo that he/she wants?

Yes indeed you are right about the sport package. That's why I never said Honda could do no wrong, or Honda always listens.

kurtatx

No, it isn't.

oonowindoo

how so?

is it a RWD during cruising and power sent to the front wheel when needed

or

is it a full time AWD that is... well full time all the time?

or

is it a FWD during cruising and some power sent the rear wheels when needed?

kurtatx

None of those things are FWD

ttribe

Check the weight distribution.

Edward'TLS

Both Acura and Audi are adding AWD capability onto their FWD platforms, whereas BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and MB are adding AWD capability onto RWD platforms.

oonowindoo

i thought that was pretty obvious when i said Acura AWD is still FWD.... ok... FWD based.......

TacoBello

I'd like to contradict some of your points- for starters, honda didn't necessarily listen to consumers about the 2012 Civic- they themselves admitted it was garbage and that they misread the market when they created it. to save themselves and to keep their "best selling" title for the civic, they quickly jumped on fixing it.

The beak still exists on acuras. It's toned down, but it's still there. You'd think after the first or second model year they'd be like "hmmm... Maybe this is ugly and maybe people do hate it", but rather than do away with the ugly, they just made it a little less ugly. That isn't listening. That's still doing whatever the hell you want. Who's to say acura did even listen? Maybe internally they decided it was too ugly and that's what sparked the toning down.

I don't expect an auto company to listen to every request past on to them and follow up on it accordingly, since people all have different requirements and tastes, however, getting rid of the beak should have been priority #1, yet they went and implemented across their entire lineup. Why you no listen, Acura? It's like more people WANT to buy their product but end up getting turned off and Acura just shrugs it's shoulders and continues on.

The ILX has more power to it now, but how long did it take for such a change to occur? Why did it take years to happen? And why wasn't it identified from the start?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

For the bolded part, you see, the same can be said with so many other things if you put it that way.

And I have already addressed the beak and ILX, see 2nd part of post #11204.

The original plan was to have the Accord's powertrain in the ILX. The tsunami in 2011 affected the plan as two R&D centres were seriously damaged, killing 1 employee and injuring ~30 others.

Legend2TL

That's your opinion and not a fact. Despite formally starting in 1946 Honda today has 4.3X revenue of Mazda despite Mazda starting in 1920 so it's fair to say Honda understands it's customer base pretty well. Add in that 3 of the top ten selling US vehicles is a Honda, Mazda's best is in #46 so it's pretty evident Honda understand what it's customers want better than Mazda despite having fairly similar products.

Honda like other manufacturers looks at market surveys and customer research for product requirements. For the Ody, they video'ed parents dropping/picking up their kids at schools (which drew attention and police questioned them). For the Ridgeline, they went to construction sites and that made the controls and switch gear larger for gloved hands. For the MDX and Pilot, the flat folding 3rd row seats came about from people wanting occasional extra passengers which proved highly successful. The fact that 3 of the top ten selling US vehicles are a Honda also

Nice story on the Miata, I was at a motorcycle meet long time ago and a PA doctor has a collection of 60's Honda road racers with a similar tale. One of his RC bikes he restored had a Kihei CV carbs was damaged beyond repair. This was a very limited racing carb which he could not find used anywhere, he contacted Honda in Gardena. After some time they got back to him and quoted a $1000 paid up front. He ordered it and few months later a newly made carb gets delivered. So Honda got Kihei to find the original tooling and molds, and commissioned one carb to be made. Not only was it freshly made (the AL body was shiny and where the tech hand filed away the body mold flashing), they included copies from 60's HRC carb flow and setup instructions, and a complete set of new needles, o-rings, jets and diaphragms for both carbs. Most probably cost Honda way more than $1K.

There's a similar tale from Patrick Head at Williams on getting a Honda twin turbo V6 engine into one of their FW11's for Goodwood.
Took couple years but Honda delivered a runnning RA166 to Williams for free, mostly goodwill and good PR for Honda.

So sunroof on your Accord Sport, nope but they do some special parts orders

TacoBello

Not sure what this has to do with listening to customers? Mazda was seriously hurt when Ford got involved with them. Prior to that, Mazda's reputation was completely different, being called the "mercedes" of Japanese cars. For all we know, it could have been bad marketing, not necessarily wanting to grow too large, being more expensive, etc, etc, that results in that.

As far as "best selling" is concerned, the 2013 civic, which Honda themselves admitted was a piece of crap, was a "best seller" yet again. Like many AZiners have pointed out, Honda is riding on it's own coat tails from it's past. Hope that keeps working for them. Honda's "reliable" reputation is what sells their cars, and according to reliability ratings, Honda/Acura has dropped significantly.

Who does these market surveys? I, to date, have never once been approached to fill one out, and yes, I have bought new cars in the past. And again, like you said, all manufacturers do this, so it's nothing out of the norm. To me, this does not sound like Honda is listening. Many on AZ will agree that Honda/Acura just crams whatever the hell they want down their consumers throats, not giving them what they are asking for.

Yes, they analyze the market like all manufacturers do. Again, they're not doing anything that other manufacturers aren't doing. Every car company has some kind of innovation. However, when it comes to what Honda's die hard fans want, Honda puts earplugs in. Even Honda has come to recognize that turning their backs on the enthusiast crowd isn't the best idea, but it's slow to be fixed.

Honda of Gardena is a dealership. Not an average Joe. If average Joe asked for the same, the outcome may not have been the same. Glad it worked out for the carb, but this is truely a rarity. First time i've heard of honda doing something like this, anyway.


Again, a racing team is not an average Joe. Williams asking for something is not the same as you or I asking for something. Actually, I did ask for a 6MT loaded 2012 Accord sedan. I was told to keep dreaming. This wasn't erally even special order. this is from Honda's racing division, and like stated, for PR purposes. This isn't even comparable again.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think his point is that if Honda doesn't listen to customers, they wouldn't be selling that many cars. Put it this way, if Honda doesn't listen to customers, then Honda would build cars that customers don't want, and then there will be no customers.

I think you meant the 2012 civic that was the piece of crap? Well, it was the best seller based on past reputation and heavy incentives. The 2013 Civic was "fixed" for the most part. Still, Honda is not happy with this generation of Civic and hence there's rumour that it's on a 4-year cycle instead of 5, so that the next gen can come out sooner and avoid damaging the brand image further.

Hmmm, so all manufacturers do this, and so its nothing out of the ordinary, and so it doesn't mean Honda is listening? That doesn't make much sense to me. To me, it means that Honda looks at surveys, just like any other car makers, then based on the results, make decisions, again, like any other makers. To me, that is part of listening to the market, to the customers.

I agree, that Honda is not listening to the car enthusiasts. But I think it's important to be clear. There's a huge difference between Honda is not listening AT ALL, and Honda only listen to some groups, but not all groups.

I'd be surprised if Honda of Gardena was able to do all that by themselves to be honest....

Legend2TL

It proves that Honda starting later and making similar vehicles to Mazda are more successful, part of that is understanding what their customers want.
It's pretty common sense business model strategy. Again, you may not be happy with Honda/Acura but many others are.

.Ford got involved because Mazda was again suffering financial distress, they've gone through several of them causing reorg's. Ford owned 1/3 of Mazda at one time, they sold most of it under Mulally. Mazda was so messed up they were one of the first large Japanese corporations to have a foreigner as their CEO.

As to Mazda being the Mercedes of Japanese car makers, I've never seen or read that. Do you have any references for that?
To me the premier Japanese brand would be Toyota which had luxury sedans well before Lexus (Crown platform)

It's still in the top ten, so it's still a success which you seem to have problems admitting to. As to "crap" again where's that reference?
BTW, it was the 2011 Civic, the 2013 was the MMC which US dealers were requesting. My daughter has a 2011, there's some stuff with the interior I'm not happy with but it does drive nice.


To you maybe, but you're just one person and again it's just your opinion and not a general consensus.

And most on AZ would admit they do not represent the general car owners as well. Some of their more recent vehicles have done a great effort in addressing what the consumer wants (Ody, MDX, Pilot, CRV, ..) along with the traditional cars (Accord, Civic,..). Acura sedans they've admitted to having made the cut recently, the TLX is trying to change that.


Again your opinion. As for the die hard fans, they also gotta remember it's not the 90's any more. The NSX and hopfully some Type-R and -S models will change that, they've taken a backseat recently.

A ride/drive in a Accord Sport showed they coulda made a SE model between the LX and EX instead they quickened the steering ratio, bigger wheels/tires, dual exhausr tips (see just for you), fog lights, 6MT, but no sunroof. Would be the Honda I would buy today, fun little sporty sedan.


Gardena CA is the headquarters of Honda Motorcycles of America. That was what I was referring to.

I've heard good will stories for Honda going back to the 70's (1G Honda Accord fenders rusting and cylidner head gaskets getting replaced out of warranty). I've also seen a few people have GM stories too (friend had three TurboHydramatic's in his IROC replaced free, one out of warranty). Someone who's owned several MB had his SD300 engine destroyed due to oil pump failure out of warranty. MB of USA replaced it with a rebuilt motor for a small fee (hundreds of dollars).

Commonplace no, but not that rare it depends on the customer and circumstance. FWIW I've never ever heard of any Audi good will story, ever.


Actually it was worst, Williams has no current ties to Honda, they had a brief business F1 partnership (1984-87) were they won 2 WCC and 1 WDC. Head talks about it in a interview for Goodwood, Honda is down to only a handful of those motors. So it was a really big deal, and Head indicated as such mostly for their racing heritage

As for your loaded Accord, meh. Honda/Acura does not do custom orders. Been that way for decades, it's their SCM philosophy so to keep bemoaning it is pointless.

For the 3G TL there were 8 exterior colors and 4 interior colors (not all were available for each color), 2 transmissions, Nav/non, and summer tires for factory options so there were ~150 factory combinations, not including dealer installed options (A-Spec, spoiler,...) I knew what I wanted in Jan. 2004, dealer looked up the code for the configuration and then the Ohio plant build schedule. TL matching that config was slated to be built in mid Feb. Waited a 5-6 weeks and it came in, it was not a big deal but I got what I wanted and still love driving it a decade later.

Legend2TL

My bad, should have wrote he contacted Honda of America.
Gardena, CA is Honda Motorcycle of America's headquarters.
This owner (PA doctor) got ahold of someone there and explained the damaged carb on the CR,

Will Y.

Nice, and appropriate, change of title for the thread.


So, anyone know anything new or exciting about the TLX planned for 2016?

TacoBello

This being a car enthusiast forum, my point was geared towards us. And you agreed with Honda not listening [to us]

charliemike

I hear they are putting LEDs in the cupholders!!!

pnoi521

The thread title, very appropriate.

fsttyms1

Its that kind of thrill!

Edward'TLS

The thread title has now been changed.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

haha yes. Honda hasn't been listening to the enthusiasts for a while....

Legend2TL

The Troubled Acura TLX Is Actually the Best Car the Brand Makes - Bloomberg

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

wow, you don't hear about a company disciplining exectives like that very often. good for honda.

AZuser

3 month pay cut. Pfft. How about a pay cut until all problems have been addressed and fixed?


Hyundai's R&D, Product President, Engineering and Electronics Chiefs Resign Over Quality Issues - The Truth About Cars

fsttyms1

Problem is is they need to do it to the US exec's as well. Maybe that might help pull their heads out of their asses here for Acura

Edward'TLS

20% pay cut for 3 months ?

This is all a show for the outside population.

I bet the year end bonus will factor in all these loss salaries plus extra compensations for all these executives.

The only real penalty will be job termination. This should make the remaining executives a lot smarter.

neuronbob

Exactly.

Belzebutt

Yep. The only time you ever hear about stuff like this is in Japan or Korea. In North America the execs only get big or bigger bonuses, even if the company is going in the toilet.