iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I know that Edmunds got 6.4s without the 1ft rollout with the TLX AWD, but Jeff from TOV also did a test on the TLX and he pulled a 5.5s:
The Temple of VTEC - Honda and Acura Enthusiasts Online Forums > TLX > > Re: I was told the TLX transmission logic "learns" (new 0-60 times)

That's with one run. I'd also suggest reading his comments about the TLX's acceleration. He goes into details explaining how he got 5.8s on the first day he got the car, and subsequently got 5.5s.

I know, we are talking about two sources. You are right if you were going to say that. Then again, so far we have only seen one actual test done by a major publication - Edmunds. And as shown in the Edmunds test, that particular TLX only had 600 miles on it. Most of the tests are done with about 2000 miles on the clock.

I think it's best to wait for more testing results from other mags such as Car and Driver and Motor Trend before we discuss further on this. Jeff himself will also do more testing once he gets another TLX AWD. The one he had only had 5% oil life in it so it might be slower than expected.

I will disregard the 0-60mph times, for the reasons mentioned above. Otherwise I'd be using 0-60mph in 5.5s for the TLX and would make your post rather meaningless.

Are really really comparing a almost fully/fully loaded car to a base model?

True, the BMW is RWD. Does that mean we can make the same argument to Audi's then? Let's all add $20k to their price tag to "convert" them to RWD.

When we talk about RWD vs AWD vs FWD, we are talking about the feeling. And for sure, a properly tuned RWD chassis would almost always feel better than a FWD chassis. It may also feel more natural than an AWD platform. In terms of handling benefits, in respect to lap times, pulling more g's, slalom, in a production car? Hmm, I'm not too sure if RWD has a major advantage over AWD. Some of the fastest production cars are RWD (458, 911 GT3, P1), and some are AWD (GTR, 911 Turbo, 918). This is a topic that we can go all day long without a conclusion.

The TLX AWD Tech is at $41.5k

A 328i X drive needs the following to match up:
Leather seats: $1.5k
Cold weather: $1k
Drive assistance pkg: $1k
Driver assistance plus: $1.9k
Lighting pkg: $900
Tech pkg: $3.2k
Moonroof: $1k
Harmon Kardon: $900

Do the math and that's over $50k.

No, not everyone needs all the bells and whistles. That's for sure.

If all you want is a proper RWD luxury sedan that focuses more on sportiness and you don't need many features, and that you go to the track and take your car to its limits very often, then of course, the 328i makes perfect sense. Why on earth are you looking at an Acura?

However, if you are looking for a well equipped sedan that has a good balance of luxury, sportiness, fancy features, and price, then there's the TLX.

oonowindoo

you forgot to mention, RWD is more expensive to produce to start off with... how much more? i don't know.

Also the N20 motor itself is most likely more expensive than the 2.4 4 banger, probably more expensive than the 20 years old J series as well.

There are many things we can't see that cost more $$ to produce in the BMW + of course, the BMW will charge 4-5k more than what it s actually worth just because it is a BMW.

You do NOT need to go to the track to enjoy RWD, just as you dont need to go to the track to HATE FWD.

but you are right, it depends on what you value more. But many fanboys want to defend TLX in EVERY category... including categories that TLX is obviously losing in.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

I would have used Jeffs numbers (of which I am not convinced) if he also had acceleration numbers from BMW, or any other comparable car. The reason for using Edmunds numbers is because they have tested both cars.

No, I'm comparing a base SH-AWD with a base (and then later, decently equipped) 328i. Just because Acura has tons of options in the base model does not make it valuable. It's the same principal as trying to sell a modified car at a premium; buyers that have no interest in said features see no value in it.

They should have had true base models at $2-3k less than the current pricing and offer the packages as options

I don't understand this at all. I didn't make the argument of RWD vs AWD, I made the argument of performance per dollar within comparably sized cars. I even compared AWD vs AWD.

You're not including destination, which I clearly noted above. That brings the cost to $42,345. I also included the cost of destination in the BMW comparisons (also noted).

FTFY.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I'm not arguing that the tlx or acura is ahead of the pack performance wise. they're middle of the pack, like the cl was. still a good value. same goes for 3g tl-s, a great car...of course I would say that since I own one. it doesn't have the performance stats of a 335, but I paid a lot less for it.

fwiw, I priced a 328 out on bmw's site, I believe this is pretty close feature wise:

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I don't see what difference that makes.

you just compared an '01 cls with a '98 e36 m3. I was commenting on that.

SSFTSX

that was summer performance tires for 328i with small x-section.

MeehowsBRZ

If you're trying to respond to a person's post try quoting them and not someone different. It makes what you're trying to say sound like nonsense.


Also, trying to claim the RSX and TSX as great "Acura's" considering they were designed, developed, and produced outside of the US and had no involvement from Acura in their actual creation AND your attempt to compare the A3 and Golf similarities to those two was pretty stupid.

oonowindoo

Close in feature names but the actual functionality and quality of the options is night and day.

I am too lazy to explain every single one of them. just to name a few

TLX LED headlight - good but not adaptive
TLX Nav - low res and lack of features. Not much different from what you get in Oddy and Accord
TLX leather - does not offer any kind of bolster or extender
TLX - No HUD that is offered in Tech package

and many other options that are not even available in a TLX.

If you really want an apple to apple comparison then Acura needs to offer equipment and options of what you WANT, not what you need.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

oonowindoo

i chose to ignore that

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

skd2k1 is almost up there with SSFTSX. should just ignore him to be honest.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

you're splitting hairs now. the point I'm making is that a 328 similarly equipped as a tlx is over $50k.

what a person "wants" is subjective.

bottom line, the cl-s 6mt couldn't hang with 330i of it's day.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

ad homs are a crutch for people who can't effectively argue their point of view.

Black Tire

I agree. Thay CL Type-S had a presence that the new TL's did not have. Had some style too. One that were black with bigger wheels were badass.

MeehowsBRZ

Actually, Ad homs is a Facebook page with a picture of a horse in the profile...
https://www.facebook.com/alaa.dablan.79


Now, an ad hominem would be a crutch for people who can't effectively argue their point of view.

If you really want to try and sound smart using terms you don't know (how could you, you don't even know how to uppercase the beginning of sentences) at least go on Google and make sure you get those fancy words spelled correctly.

Boulder TSX

You jumped into the conversation...a discussion that centered around what cars sold under the Acura brand were great. You tried to reframe it -- but despite your efforts, I was focused on the OP's list of cars.

And speaking of redirecting the discussion, what does the country of origin have to do with whether a car deserves the awards it won from the automotive press? The cars listed by the OP were not described under your parameters...and no one but you is holding them to that. Lexus has many cars that were created outside this country, from Toyota cars...as does Audi, (created from VWs...and in many cases rebadged). But apparently you like to hold Acura to special rules -- which do not apply to the discussion anyway.

BTW, Acura = Honda -- the same company...until just a few months ago, when they recently became officially separate companies. Look it up.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

how do you uppercase the beginning of sentences?

biker

Is there any TLX news amongst all of this PWin?

fsttyms1

Ok, enough is enough. Lets get this back on track and more civilized.

ttribe

RPhilMan1

So that's what your name means.

Super Summer Fat Tires Small X-Section

MeehowsBRZ

Type R-S with SH-AWD, DOUBLE jewel eye headlights, and 305 hp confirmed.



Capitalization, its a thing most first graders know about, but we know you're special.

oonowindoo

How is that splitting hair? similarly equipped does not mean they should cost the same.
Yes you are right 328 similarly equipped will be at $50k. and there is a reason why it is $50k.

That is like comparing 2 55" TV... 1 cost $600 and 1 cost $2000. Yes they offer the similar features but no they are not the same.

What a person "Wants" is subjective that is why you have to offer different OPTIONS to cover as much ground as possible. But having choices usually means more $$.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

JS + BRZ says, No.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

I didn't say it means they should cost the same, the point is that they don't cost the same when similarly equipped.

again, what people want is subjective, some people want more options and are willing to spend more money for those options and some don't. there is more than one way to skin a cat. not everyone shares your wants.

Yumcha

At least have the decency to remove your glove and slap the person across the face with it before challenging them to this e-duel.

oonowindoo

I think we are pretty civilized here... compare to what is going on the TLX section? we are calm as fuk. =D

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think it's already mentioned by civicdrivr that RWD would cost more to produce. How much more? I have no idea either. I would imagine there are many factors involved.

And you are probably right that the N20 is more $$ to make than the K24 and/or J35. Again, I have no clue.

And I agree, you don't need to go to a track to enjoy RWD. Here's what I said in my previous post,

"And for sure, a properly tuned RWD chassis would almost always feel better than a FWD chassis. It may also feel more natural than an AWD platform."

I also agree that there are fan boys out there that would defend for something that's false. At the same time, I also see some people making false statements about the TLX that make it sound worse than it is.

Honda is obviously milking the K series and J series. But to be fair, the TLX 2.4L competes well with the 320i, IS250 and ATS 2.5 in terms of NVH, performance, and fuel economy. The TLX 3.5L also competes well in those categories against 328i, C300, IS350, A4 2.0T and ATS 2.0T/3.6.

The biggest concern in the powertrain department is that, there's nothing from the TLX line up that can compete head on with S4, C400, and 335i. In fact, it's only the German brands that are involved at that level. The Q50 is somewhere in between a IS350 and 335i in terms of straight line performance.

I totally understand that. Actually Jeff does have numbers from BMW and other comparable cars. But they are scattered all over his forum. As such, like I said, I think it's best to wait for numbers from other publications.

I'm not too sure about that. I agree that some buyers would not need all those features, and will find them of no value. Like I said, if all you are after is a RWD compact sedan with a nice logo and good reputation, and you need many features, then don't waste your time on a TLX. The TLX, and most Acura's, are designed for buyers that want a crap load of features even in the base trim. Heck, the SH-AWD version for whatever doesn't evne have a base trim. Its base trim is already a Tech model. It's a bit surprising since in Canada, we do have a base SH-AWD TLX available.

See above.

I think I quoted the wrong person....lol....if so, my bad.

That's fine, but still quite sizable gap. But of course, as mentioned, if you are only looking for performance/dollar ratio, and you don't need any of those features, then it makes little sense to get the TLX.

Edward'TLS

I don't quite understand why some people always use a loaded Acura vehicle for equipment-level benchmark pricing comparisons, especially that Acura sedans have never been benchmark vehicles in any vehicle class.

Using the 328i and TLX as examples, it is true that when a 328i is equipped with similar options as the TLX, the 328i will cost a lot more than the TLX.

But not all buyers want every single one of the built-in options on their pre-packaged-trim-leveled vehicles. So why make them pay extra money for built-in options that these buyers don't want to have nor need to have.

For these buyers, a custom-optioned 328i will be cheaper in price than the TLX which "contains" the buyers' individual desired options.

Therefore, a custom-optioned European luxury sedan (equipped with every options specified by the sedan buyers) may sometimes be even cheaper in price than the equivalently equipped (as the Euro sedan) pre-packaged-trim-leveled Acura.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's pretty much what we are saying. I don't think he's saying that other makes should use Acura as a benchmark.


With that said, you can't exactly custom build a Euro sedan exactly as you want.

Using the 3 series example, let's say I want heated rear seats for my parents, but don't want front heated seats, I can't do that. I must get Cold weather package and now I will also be stuck with heated steering wheel. Another example is if I ONLY want the M suspension, I must also get the variable sport steering as part of the dynamic handling package.

Same thing goes for heads up display. What if I want something cool like the heads up display? I must now spend $3k on the tech package in order to get that feature.

Yet another example, if all I want is paddle shifters, I will need to also get the Sport Line.

And what if I want paddle shifters on a 320i? Sorry, that's impossible.

So yes, in some scenarios, you are definitely correct that getting a 328i can be cheaper than a pre packaged Acura. And certainly, it's more flexible than the Acura system. However, I also believe you can't always custom build a 3 series exactly the way you want.

oonowindoo

yah you can't have it EXACTLY the way you want it... or maybe with Bentley and RR. That just shows choices = $$

However, with BMW and Merc, at least the most popular options like sunroof, Dakota leather, Extended or full leather (dashboard), Navi, LED headlights can all be ordered sepeartely without packages.

fsttyms1

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Ya for sure. Acura has to rely on their current method to bring costs down though. For the sales volume that Acura is getting, the brand is quite limited when it comes to customization.

ttribe

Seems to be a "chick-or-the-egg" issue. If they want to go upmarket, they'll need to change their approach. If they are waiting until they get more volume first, they may find themselves in a permanent state of waiting.

oonowindoo

i don't think Acura has enough models and volume to follow the same model as BMW.

but I honestly think Acura should not have made LED headlight standard on every TLX and soon on every Acura. it is good for consumers until when they realize the $25k ILX has the same headlight. when every Acura on the road has the same headlight, then it is no longer something special and with many other standard features.

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

^that was one of the reasons I bought an acura, because so much tech came standard. personally, I couldn't care less if a less expensive model has the same headlights, but I'm sure there are folks out there who would be bothered by that. at the same time, I don't know anyone who wants halogen headlights on their 2015 luxury car.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

So you do care.



ib4rabblerabblerabblegrammarpolice

skd2k1

iTrader: (1)

feel better now?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Absolutely.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think they are content with not being tier-1, hence they shelved the V8 RWD plan.

Like oonowindoo and I are saying, Acura doesn't have enough models and volume to follow the same model as BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. Companies like Cadillac, Infiniti, and Lexus have larger parent companies to back them.

If they stay with FWD chassis, and start following the same model as other luxury makes, then most likely their production and manufacturing costs would go up. That cost would need to be transferred to the customers. I don't know how much more that would cost, but even making each Acura model 10% more expensive can be very risky.

That's one side of looking at it. The other side is that it can become a brand identity. Besides, each model seems to have a different style of the Jewel Eye headlights. For higher end models, I think they should differentiate them by adding other functions like pivoting and stuff.