YEH

Like for Ford, a lot of GM's fleet sales is to commercial fleet, but yes, their rental fleet % has been among the tops (but that's the norm for a domestic brand).

While the XTS is Cadillac's designated livery fleet model, it actually had fleet sales under 20% with the CTS a good bit lower than the XTS.

And as stated previously, while the CTS hasn't exactly lit the sales stats on fire (due to a # of reasons, but primarily its packaging re interior room), it is outselling the Lexus GS with Cadillac having sold out on the 2016MY run on the CTS-V (meanwhile there are plenty of GS-Fs to be found on dealer lots).

Even if one takes out 10-15% sales of the XTS/CTS due to fleet sales, still, Acura doesn't even come anything resembling close with the RLX; heck, the RLX can't even come close to sales of the pricier CT6.


The X5 starts at $54.7k and goes up to nearly $100k for the X5 M (once you add options, easily break the $100k barrier0.

The MDX starts at $43k - so let's stop pretending that the 2 compete head to head.



As I've long stated, Honda does well w/ its core lineup, and while the new Civic is doing very well for Honda (even if it doesn't make $$), aside from that - most of the other growth YTD has come from HR-V sales (which didn't go on sale until May of last year).

As per usual (being the resident troll) - note how there is no mention of Acura sales (when this is an Acura and not a Honda site).

Acura sales DOWN 9.3% YTD - every model (aside from the very niche NSX) down big for the month - even the RDX and MDX when crossover sales are booming.

Maybe this is just a temporary blip, but more likely a longer term issue for Acura.

Have stated previously that RDX and MDX sales have done so well in the past in part due to the lack of (up-to-date) competition, but now there is more competition (NX, MKC, new XT5, new MKX, new XC90, new Envision, etc.) and there is more on the way.

Cadillac will get a compact and 3-row crossovers and even loaded/top trim versions of the Mazda CX-9 and Kia Sorento will take some sales away from the MDX.

Speaking of YTD sales... H/K are up for the year - so what ever happened to your assertion that the days of growth are over?

And H/K are doing it thus far w/o any new additions to their line-up (what new models do you think they have added?); growth will increase at a greater clip as they get the new additions, esp. the crossovers.

And Genesis sales are doing more than fine - thank you very much (on track to do DOUBLE that of GS sales).

For May, the Genesis and G90/EQ900 did 5,789 units in Korea; how many Legends did Honda sell in Japan?

And once Kia adds the GT/Stinger - H/K should have a pretty significant share of the midsize, luxury market.

SSFTSX

Start does not matter. what matter is at what price BMW can actual lease a X5 and what they offer at that price. and after lease return at what price they can sell it. MDX has very solid resale values. even the older MDX 2010-2011 routinely prices higher than X5.
by your logic stop comparing Genesis with BMW 3 series as 3 series can go upto $90k.



where you get this idea Honda does not make money on Civic?. Honda is the least exposed to rental fleet. the inventory is well managed. Civic is global launched.
Acura is built on Honda funds and technology.
this all your forecasts and when it does not turn out to be correct. you will bring more excuse.

TacoBello

oonowindoo

I will save you some $$, just give me $80k and i will get you a fully loaded 3 series with everything that is available.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea lol, I wasn't talking about RLX. We all know it's DOA.

Up until June 2016, Lexus sold 7452 GS, and Cadillac sold 7906 CTS. Factoring in the fleet sales, I'm not sure if the CTS is outselling the GS. With that said, Lexus saw a huge decline in the GS compared to 2015. At this time last year, Lexus moved about 11k GS. We also need to keep in mind the GS has been in production from 2011 (albeit with a recent facelift), whereas the CTS has been in production since 2013.

Yup, I'm not surprised at all with the GS F sales. When it first came out, I said that its output of 467hp/389lbft is nowhere near enough in this segment. Now that the pricing for both are known, which is about $85k, if you are not a brand snob, it's easy to decide which one to get. I know for sure I'd chose the 640hp CTS-V over the 467hp GSF. There's really no comparison. If only need 400+hp, I would save myself $25k and buy the CTS 3.6TT instead.

YEH

Toyota has been keeping GS sales afloat over the past few yrs w/ cheap lease deals; they aren't being generous right now due to the rise in the value of the yen.

Also, the 4G GS went on sale in the US in early 2012 and the 3G CTS in late 2013 - so there isn't as much of a difference in age as you make out.

Even taking out fleet sales for the CTS (say 10%) - that leaves 7,115 in sales YTD which is about 300 shy of the GS.

But there's also XTS sales in the same price-bracket (taking out say, 15% for fleet) - which leaves Cadillac w/ 15,400 in sales - which is still DOUBLE what Lexus does in that price-segment.

So any way you look at it, Cadillac is doing significantly better than Lexus in the mid-price luxury sedan market - which was my whole point.


If you want to play in the performance-line game, you've got to bring the performance and not half-arsed it like w/ what Toyota has done.

But then again, the power-trains in Lexus models have long been outdated (otoh, has kept reliability rankings up) - but one really has to wonder if the typical Lexus buyers really care about performance in the 1st place.

The IS250 was roundly criticized by the automotive press (including Consumer Reports) for its anemic power and yet it comprised 90% of IS sales.

And when Toyota finally replaced the IS250 w/ the 200t and IS300 AWD, sales went down.

But going back to the performance-line thing, if you want to play the game, you had better bring it.

There's a reason why FCA sold out of the Challenger Hellcat and why Cadillac has sold out of the 2016MY run of the CTS-V.

Supposedly Cadillac is working on an even hotter version than the CTS-V and I'll bet if that come to fore, that it'll sell out as well (no matter the shortcomings on the CTS).


Starting prices matters a whole lot in the auto biz and BMW can offer attractive lease deals due to high residua

But what matters even more is ATP and Acura's ATP is nowhere close to BMW's.

And have never compared the Genesis to the 3 Series since they are in totally different size segments - and while yes, the Genesis is in the same size bracket as the 5 Series, never have stated that it competes against the 5 Series head to head in price.

Gee, I knew reading comprehension already was an issue for you, but I guess being a complete moron isn't out of the question.

Look a few posts above for your answer.


No duh - which is what Acura is basically Honda via a separate sales channel.

But this is still an Acura site and not a Honda site (there are actual Honda sites) and upon the most recent sales reports, you just talk about Honda sales #s and totally forget about Acura's.

Which is so typical as it is your MO to proffer incomplete (and hence, misleading) info.

So what about Acura's declining sales - even for their crossovers?


All my forecasts have been pretty spot on - unlike yours.

So what ever happened to wait until the RLX gets the hybrid w/ SH-AWD and then we'll see sales take off?

Or that the Genesis would fail miserably?

Or that the days of growth for H/K are over?

Meanwhile, I even stated that the heady days of Acura crossover sales would start to face headwinds once there was greater competition in the way of FWD-based luxury crossovers (or even top spec mainstream crossovers).

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Ahh, didn't realize you were talking about CTS combined with XTS sales. If so, for sure their combined figure would be more than the GS. But ya, when you have two different vehicles in the segment, the sales figures together better be higher! It's like how the TSX + TL figures are better than the TLX alone.

What interests me the most is that the XTS has been consistently outselling the CTS for the most part. The only explanation I have is that the XTS comes with a standard V6. I guess it's sort of like how the ES is so successfully.

TSX69

June Fleet Sales Jump 13%, Outpace Retail

PHP Code:

Retail vs. fleet sales
Estimated retail and fleet volume for June 2016 vs. June 2015
June 2016 retail sales June 2015 % retail share June retail sales June 2014 % retail share % change
General Motors 209,300 82% 206,800 80% 1.20%
Toyota Motor 180,300 91% 182,800 87% -1.40%
Ford-Lincoln 152,400 63% 145,900 65% 4.40%
FCA US 147,100 75% 146,200 79% 0.60%
American Honda 135,900 98% 131,700 98% 3.20%
Nissan N.A. 105,500 75% 105,700 85% -0.20%
Hyundai-Kia 92,000 71% 95,100 78% -3.20%
Top 7 1,022,500 79% 1,014,200 80% 0.80%

June 2015 fleet sales June 2015 % fleet share June 2014 % fleet share June 2014 % fleet share % change
Ford-Lincoln 87,700 37% 79,800 35% 10.00%
FCA US 50,000 25% 38,900 21% 28.50%
General Motors 45,900 18% 52,500 20% -12.60%
Hyundai-Kia 38,000 29% 26,500 22% 43.40%
Nissan N.A. 35,100 25% 18,600 15% 88.90%
Toyota Motor 17,900 9% 27,100 13% -33.80%
American Honda 2,800 2% 2,700 2% 3.20%
Top 7 277,400 21% 246,100 20% 12.80%
Sources: Manufacturers, industry sources 


Strong fleet activity led U.S. auto sales growth in June.

For the 7 best-selling automakers that control 86 percent of the market, June fleet sales jumped 13 percent while their combined retail volume inched up 0.8 percent.

For the same group, retail activity in the 1st 6 months was a scant 0.1 percent higher while sales to commercial, governmental and rental fleet buyers climbed 10 percent.

The overall U.S. auto market rose 2.4 percent in June, enough to lift 1st -half sales 1.4 percent ahead of the same period in 2015. Full-year 2015 volume was a record 17.5 million light vehicles.

The 1st-half fleet volume increase for major players totaled 146,200 light vehicles. That's more than the 116,545 unit growth in the 1st 6 months for the overall market.

YEH

Honda Car Sales Hot | One of Only Two Brands to See Increase | Industry content from WardsAuto

Wouldn't be surprised if an increasing amount of potential ILX and TLX buyers just opted for a loaded Civic or Accord as buyers these days increasingly want all the bells & whistles (as opposed to getting a more modestly equipped Acura).


Yes, but irrespective of having 2 models in the same price-segment, Cadillac, nonetheless, sells a good bit more sedans in the luxury mid-price range than Lexus - and despite all the grief thrown Cadillac's way, more than any other automakers but MB and BMW.

Also, not sure if TSX + TL would have resulted in the same (albeit would have been more) as they are similar type sedans unlike the CTS and XTS.

Toyota, with Lexus, could have easily added another sedan in that price segment, but they chose not to do so (concentrating on the entry-level price segment); when they moved the ES from the Toyota to the Avalon platform, that was a prime opportunity for them to move the ES up a price segment, but Toyota chose not to do so since they probably realized that they would be giving up a good chunk of sales volume.


I doubt that's it.

More likely, it's the fact that the XTS isn't deficient in passenger/trunk room like the CTS (and for that matter the ATS).

It's the curse of the Alpha platform (see also new Camaro sales) - the previous decision-makers at Cadillac went all out on handling when developing the Alpha plaform, but sacrificed what most American luxury buyers want - room/comfort and luxury.

oonowindoo

Agreed.

Lexus could put a 4 banger 180hp Camry engine in the ES, I doubt the sales number will be affected much. I honestly think most of the ES buyers dont even realize they have a V6.

MSZ

Lexus did exactly just that in many Asian markets, ES is powered by that 177hp engine there and most people who bought the ES just don't give a fucking fuck about it.

oonowindoo

yah but the primary reason they put the smaller engine in the ES is not just because of that.

In most of the Asian countries, if not, all Asian countries, taxes and annual license fee is calculated based on the engine size. That is why every manufacture from Hyundai to Mercedes all have smaller engines, much smaller engines.

you will rarely find any V8 over there, and most of the E class and 5 series are all around 2 liters and S class and 7 series are powered by 3 liter 6 cylinder or less and that is considered sufficient. Besides they don't have many places where you can actually use the power. 60km is considering fast already there are cameras every 1/4 mile and gas prices are significantly higher.

The issues we have on AZ is really first world problem

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'd go for a Civic Touring over the ILX, and Accord Touring over the TLX (unless I want SH-AWD).

Yup, I get that the CTS + XTS together are more than the GS alone. It's like how the not well-received 4G TL + 2G TSX together were selling more than the IS, C Class, A4, etc, individually. And it's even more so for the CTS + XTS, since as you mentioned, these two cars are quite different and appeal to different groups of buyers. With that said, I heard that the XTS is only a temporary model when it first out and be dead by 2019.

Yea, I can understand Toyota's decision regarding the ES. It's selling so damn well. The ES + IS together outsell everyone in the segment as per last month.

Legend2TL

Is this your opinion, or do you have a link/reference stating that?

SSFTSX

offcourse its opinion that's why every statement he makes is always wrong. In his world H/K making money despite giving 10 year warranties, resale buyback, job proof, plethora of sedans and combination.

MSZ

Motor Trend reported that new Civic doesn't make Honda any profit in August 2016 issue.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...YIdxmpTldXg-XA

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If true then it's an interesting strategy. Another poster on that forum says VW is doing the same thing with the Golf.

YEH

Simply hilarious coming from you (a person who may be even more deluded than the Trumpster).

And this is even after I directed you to a previous post where I cited the source.



Apparently your so mentally-challenged that you can even get something when someone spoon-feeds it to you.

And pray-tell what are all the things I have been wrong about?

So typical of trolls to accuse others of being what they are (you, otoh, have been wrong so many times and continually make misleading claims by omitting key facts or go on some asinine tangent when you have been schooled - as pretty much everyone here can attest to).

And oh, another thing that you were wrong about (and I was correct) is that H/K sales have been growing as they have been to increase supply of their crossovers (and that growth is not coming w/ the addition of any new models - which will also happen).


As pointed out, the diff. is that the TL and TSX were fundamentally more similar to each other (main different was the half-segment size diff.), whereas the CTS and XTS are quite diff.

No need for the XTS as the CT6 (in particular, the 4-banger model) replaces it in part, as will the next gen Buick Lacrosse.

But the point remains - despite all the criticisms of Cadillac re sales - they, nonetheless, sell a lot more luxury sedans in the mid-price segment than any automaker that is not MB or BMW.


Well, they know their buyer demographic and it is the entry-level price-range or thereabouts (NX, RX, IS and ES).

Don't know if a turbo-4 would have been as appealing to ES buyers (they like to think they are buying luxury), but that weak-sauce Toyota V6 that was in the IS250 probably would have sufficed - as the IS250 had made up 90% of IS sales despite all the criticisms from the automotive press, including Consumer Reports for being grossly under-powered, among other things (shows that the vast majority of Lexus buyers don't care about performance either).

SSFTSX

How can motor trend know?. Honda has such complex r&d and purchasing system of materials globally it's very hard trace costs. On most civic stickers 30% parts made in Japan, 70% Canada /US. And this engine and transmission will be shared globally across various platforms.

ttribe

Classic. You doubt Motor Trend could get the answer on profitability, but you think you have it all figured out. Have you told Motor Trend how you know better than them? I'm sure they'd be very "interested."

SSFTSX

If Honda is not making money on Civic than none if it's competitors that include Hyundai can make money in this segment . Honda is world leader in standardization, robotics and flexible manufacturing with factories located at most strategic locations. They are ahead in using Mexico labor and Canadian lower currency operations. They have only one CVT transmission for Civic. They only do retail

ttribe

Assuming 100% of what you say is true, do you really think that you know that but Motor Trend doesn't?

You are never-ending fountain of comedy.

Legend2TL

Here in lies the problem, it may be true or it may be false, it's only a rumor in Motor Trend and not a official statement from Honda
It's as simple as that, typically most auto manufacturers are pretty tight with their financial information which is very complex for any given model (NRE, BOM, cost and amortization of facilities and tooling, ...).

Quote:

Motor Trend
August 2016; Page 19

Have you been seeing a lot of new Honda Civics around? If so, there's a good reason why. They're loaded with class-exclusive features, and they cost less than the competition at the same trim levels.

What they don't do, according to well-placed sources, is make money. In fact, Honda may even be losing money on every new Civic it sells.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Exactly, the TL and TSX being more fundamentally similar means that, there's more canalization - they are more likely to compete with each other. They also wouldn't appeal to as many people. The XTS and CTS are more different as you said, that means each of these can attract more people, hence more sales is possible. That being said, the 2G TSX and 4G TL weren't well received, but when combined together, they were outselling a lot of competitors too. Does that mean Acura did not deserve their criticisms? I'd imagine people here won't agree with that at all as they felt the 4G TL was fugly and the 2G TSX to be too soft.

Toyota/Lexus built an excellent reputation, and is now reaping its rewards by being able to sell many ES. It can get away with it. I guess it's sort of like the 9G Civic. Honda made a huge mistake with it, but still people bought them (albeit with more incentives). Then you get something like the Mazda6. It's been ranked as 1st or 2nd in its class, but it just doesn't sell.

oonowindoo

i honestly doubt that Honda is losing $ on Civics. Probably does not make much as they would like, but losing $ on their volume product just does not make sense.

TacoBello

it does, if they just want that shiny trophy for another year, saying "best selling car in its category"

less and less people are buying sedans. more and more people are crossovers. I can see Honda doing whatever it can just to keep the numbers up.

oonowindoo

if anything i can see them losing $ on the Accord... especially the Accord Sport

kurtatx

Especially Accord-sized sedans, I imagine. The fuel efficiency of the crossovers are so good sedan's simply can't keep up with their more utilitarian counterparts. There will always be a place for the Civic as long as their are college grads in need of something inexpensive and efficient and Honda has made the Civic larger, but unless you're looking at an Accord Sport or some of the upper models (the Touring is better than a lot of Acuras), the Accord seems like an oddball.

ttribe

If, indeed, Honda is taking a loss on the Civic right now, it's likely for two reasons: 1) to regain market share lost in the debacle that was the previous generation; and 2) as a "gateway drug" to the brand to get young first-time buyers hooked on Honda so they can get them for their second and third purchases (one of which will likely be a SUV/Crossover where the margins are HUGE).

oonowindoo

how huge? Huge or Donald Trump Huuuuuuuuuuuge?
because Honda is so reliable it will take them decades to achieve their goal

ttribe

More HUGE than two Donald Trumps!

As to the reliability comment, I suspect (but don't know for sure) that most auto consumers don't only replace their cars when they wear out. I'm guessing they are banking on people who go through life and/or career changes and need/want to upsize.

oonowindoo

who knows.

But what we do know is, in a company, especially a HHHHHUUUUUGE company like Honda, the top line is just as important as the bottom line. Sometimes they need to push for top line for various reasons even if they have to sacrifice the bottom line and vice versa.

ttribe

Legend2TL

YEH

Well, MT had that coming from what they regarded as a well-placed source and it's not like Honda has made a statement refuting it (not that I expected them to do so).

But whether Honda is indeed losing $$ on the new Civic or just breaking even (or even making a tiny profit) - would not be surprised if the one of the the first 2 is true.

Among import brands, Toyota and Nissan have been very aggressive on discounting their passenger cars (financially better for an automaker to keep factories humming at or near full capacity), basically subsidizing passenger car sales in the US w/ the profits from their crossover/SUV/truck sales (as both Nissan and Toyota have the most extensive non-car lineups among the imports by far).

In this day and age, hard to find a bad auto (w/ a few exceptions) and buyers increasingly are less brand loyal and purchase based on who's offering the best deal that month (see the massive monthly sales variance on Altima sales from a few yrs ago - going from 22k to 33k to 41k to 16k in a 4 month period), so the days of Honda expecting much of a premium over other brands are over, much less the days of automakers expecting a premium whenever a new generation model is launched.

In addition, the recent rise in the valuation of the Yen doesn't help profitability on the Civic - which for the NA markets are produced in the US and Canada.

Nissan already builds the Sentra in Mexico, Toyota is moving its Canadian production of the Corolla to Mexico and Kia recently started production of the Forte at its new Mexico plant; it's inevitable that more and more automakers will follow suit with their compact car offerings as the margins are slim and none producing north of the border.

YEH

Not sure if I would quite say that as the TSX and TL were quite different in size in addition to having a not insignificant price difference.

The TSX was 185.6 inches in length (w/ a wheelbase of 106.5) - a good bit shorter than the 194" length of the TL. (w/ a wheelbase of 109.3).

The TL was actually closer to the RL in size (193.6/195.8" w/ a 110.2 inch wheelbase) - which was why there was a lot of talk of the TL stealing RL sales (and why Acura made the TLX smaller than the TL - in order to greater differentiate it from the RLX).

Also, the $5.5k price difference btwn the TSX and TL was not insubstantial (esp. since $5k is a lot for those looking at the entry-level price segment).

Meanwhile the XTS starts at $45.3k and the CTS at $45.5k - so basically no difference in price to enter either.

But this is neither here nor there - as the point I was trying to make was that Cadillac despite its overall sales nos. (primarily due to the lack of crossovers and its ill-advised packaging of its smaller RWD sedans) does pretty well in the luxury mid-price sedan segment (better than all but MB and BMW).

The whole TSX and TL combo isn't really relevant to the XTS/CTS discussion as the entry-level price segment is a much larger segment (which is why Toyota decided not to push the ES upmarket when they resized it).

Now, if Honda had kept similar dimensions and pushed the price up for the TL replacement - then if Acura sales in the luxury mid-price segment were similar to that of Cadillac's - would have been impressive.

And while Cadillac has relatively tepid sales with the ATS (due to its cramped passenger/trunk space), GM's share of the entry-level market isn't nearly as bad as it is made out to be when Regal (direct competitor to the TLX) and Lacrosse (direct competitor to the ES) are factored in (88,412 total sold in 2015).

SSFTSX

Honda rarely make comments on magazine issues unless it is some safety.


This 1.5T engine/CVT from Honda is used in China (Honda sells are exploding) and Japan. so very little chance that Honda is losing money on Civic.
Honda does not build excess factories at wrong places. there is little incentive for volumes. that's why they strictly against fleet sales.
Honda product is always premium over Nissan/Toyota.
Yen impact more Toyota/Nissan where most of SUVs and Lexus/Infiniti are from Japan.
Honda HRV command much higher price than Sentra/Corrolla/Forte and that is main product from Mexico. surplus Fit are exported from Japan to US.
Honda charges BMW/Lexus kind of prices for its vehicles in EU. it cant be called mainstream brand.

Honda Indonesia Sales Surge 36% January Through May | Industry content from WardsAuto

AZuser

Back to being a Honda fanboi troll now?

No more love for Toyota even though you said it's "built like tank" and "appear like quality" unlike NSX?


Try a Honda product in sand dunes of arabia and see how long it last. It will simply melt in desert heat unlike Toyota.

"Toyota is global king with transaction prices well above $100k. they are well in way of $40b profits a year"

SSFTSX

that is Lexus built in Japan.

[img]http://i.exchangeandmart.co.uk/image...00.jpg[img]
[img]http://images.gmanews.tv/v3/webpics/....JPG[/img]

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If you look at the interior dimensions, the 2G TSX, 4G TL, and 2G RL are quite similar:
Front Head Room: 38.4" vs 37.6" vs 38.4"
Front Leg Room: 42.5" vs 42.4 vs 42.3"
Front Hip Room: 55.7" vs 55.6" vs 55.1"
Front Shoulder Room: 58.2" vs 57.8" vs 58.5"
Rear Head Room: 36.7" vs 37.0" vs 37.2"
Rear Leg Room: 36.2" vs 34.3 vs 36.3"
Rear Hip Room: 54.8" vs 54.2" vs 54"
Rear Shoulder Room: 56.2" vs 56.1" vs 56.1"

Don't know about you, but based on these numbers, I don't think I can say the TL is noticeably bigger than the TSX, and that the TL and RL are similar in size. I'd say, these 3 cars are pretty damn close in terms of size. For the TL, a lot of the extra exterior length is from the relatively pointy beak and rear end.

Yup, I agree that base price is one way of looking at things, another is the price range. The TSX and TL together cover a range of $30k (base TSX) to $46k (TL AWD Advance). That's quite a small range. Just look at the 3 series (excluding the M3), it covers from $32k to $60 or even $70k.

The TSX/TL combo was brought in to illustrate how having 2 models in the same segment can add to sales. It doesn't matter much which segment we are talking about. Obviously, more expensive cars are harder to sell, so I'm not compare the absolute sales numbers of the TL/TSX against the XTS and CTS. That's not fair. Rather, my point is, when you have two or more entries in a segment, I wouldn't be too surprised if the combined figures are better than others that are on their own.