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No kidding?! A car company (Honda) that sells models ranging from the sub-$20s to nearly $50k sells more units than a company whose models begin in the $30s. I never would have thunk it!
That's not one of your finer efforts.
The point is, Acura cannot be doomed if it can fall back on Honda. Acura and Honda financial performance are inevitably connected, and the MDX more than proves some people just buy the MDX for the A badge, so it's not worthless and you bimmer lemmings would believe.
I want to live in your fantasy land, too. All I need is a roundel on my car.
^ Okay, I guess it's OK to not have any brand differentiation if the money all goes to the same spot right?
Not financially, unless having it causes people to cross shop with your brands.
For this reason alone, the MDX is HUGE for Acura and Honda. Joe average buyer is far more likely to cross shop a German Crossover with an Acura than a Honda.
If Honda was smart, they'd let Acura out on the leash a little more and bring some excitement and stride back into the brand. Further differentiate the two - Look what Nissan & Toyota are doing, similar powerplants & different product line from Lexus & Infiniti.
Not only that, Acura has the same regurgitated engines year after year, nothing of the equivalent to AMG, Shelby, M-Series, SRT, F-Sport - nada, zip.
TLX Sport with SH-AWD?
I hope the dealership showroom has plenty of coffee.
I will dip a toe into the conversation. The previous Pilot was very different from any MDX model. The new Pilot is way too close to the current MDX for my comfort. Just go on the Acura website and compare the MDX Advance to the Pilot Elite. If I were in the market for a new MDX and drove the new Pilot, I might choose the Pilot. That is not what Acura would want to hear from a die in the wool Acura customer. The MMC MDX needs to be radically different than the Pilot or they will cannibalize their own sales. I have not drove the new Pilot, but based on what I have read they are way too close to each other in every measurement.
Regarding the new Accord, there is way too much "raiding the corporate parts bin" for my Acura blood comfort. I get why Honda did it, but they now have to step up the entire Acura line with even more technology and brand unique bits otherwise the arguments that Acura is just a gussied up Honda will continue. If they build proper cars with fantastic performance while providing unique stance, sheet metal and interiors with at least market segment average economy, they will be a brand that attracts new customers, rather than hoping to keep their customers and not loose overall market share (as they are now). Acura needs to lead from the top down. ALL new technology needs to enter via the Acura line and much later on in the product cycle, a portion of it gets into the Honda line.
Last edited by RLX-Sport Hybrid; 07-28-2015 at 09:22 PM.
The point is, Acura cannot be doomed if it can fall back on Honda. Acura and Honda financial performance are inevitably connected, and the MDX more than proves some people just buy the MDX for the A badge, so it's not worthless and you bimmer lemmings would believe.
I want to live in your fantasy land, too. All I need is a roundel on my car.
How does BMW even relate to the discussion? Have you read a damn thing I've said to address the substance, or did you just decide to play the BMW "lemmings" card to poison the well?
I just posted this in the RLX section and it applies in this thread as well:
Just looked over the features in the new 2016 Accord with Honda Sensing that was released at the media event a few days ago. WOW. If this had been available a few months ago, I would be an Accord owner today. The midsize family sedan segment is so competitive now that Honda has had to Acura-ify the Accord to compete. I can now see why people are howling about Acura being left in the dust by Honda, and why some are asking "why bother with Acura?"
I sure hope that Acura has a slam-dunk upgrade planned for the RLX, and I mean more than just adding Carplay/Android Auto, especially if they plan to keep the prices where they are...
MDX is selling and doing great when you compare to other Acura cars. but when you put it against its competitor, it is just doing average. check the sales numbers for RX, X5 and ML.
just give it a few more months and you will see how the new Pilot eats away MDX's sales number.
RX has hybrid engine and on avg sell lower price than MDX.
X5 and ML has more engine options. ML now even have 4 cylinder diesel.
I will dip a toe into the conversation. The previous Pilot was very different from any MDX model. The new Pilot is way too close to the current MDX for my comfort. Just go on the Acura website and compare the MDX Advance to the Pilot Elite. If I were in the market for a new MDX and drove the new Pilot, I might choose the Pilot. That is not what Acura would want to hear from a die in the wool Acura customer. The MMC MDX needs to be radically different than the Pilot or they will cannibalize their own sales. I have not drove the new Pilot, but based on what I have read they are way too close to each other in every measurement.
Regarding the new Accord, there is way too much "raiding the corporate parts bin" for my Acura blood comfort. I get why Honda did it, but they now have to step up the entire Acura line with even more technology and brand unique bits otherwise the arguments that Acura is just a gussied up Honda will continue. If they build proper cars with fantastic performance while providing unique stance, sheet metal and interiors with at least market segment average economy, they will be a brand that attracts new customers, rather than hoping to keep their customers and not loose overall market share (as they are now). Acura needs to lead from the top down. ALL new technology needs to enter via the Acura line and much later on in the product cycle, a portion of it gets into the Honda line.
In layman's terms: Acura needs to grow a pair and bitch slap the shit out of Honda and tell Honda who the boss is, rather than continue getting bent over by Honda.
How does BMW even relate to the discussion? Have you read a damn thing I've said to address the substance, or did you just decide to play the BMW "lemmings" card to poison the well?
And now you don't read, either.
Originally Posted by TacoBello
I don't expect Honda/Acura to pick up its shoes and start chewing at BMWs heels, but offering something other than vanilla mobiles, using the same J-series and K-Series engine platforms for well over a decade and essentially offering no real differentiation between Acura and Honda besides an AWD option and nice headlights just doesn't cut it.
But please, continue to bite the heads off of anyone who feels okay with Acura and Honda's financial performance in the financial thread.
The well is poisoned by your nonsense. Colin makes a good point and tries to be positive and you attack him for it.
We should update the header of this page
"Acurazine: The unofficial illiterate bimmerlings resource"
MDX is selling and doing great when you compare to other Acura cars. but when you put it against its competitor, it is just doing average. check the sales numbers for RX, X5 and ML.
just give it a few more months and you will see how the new Pilot eats away MDX's sales number.
You know, the MDX actually does pretty well against its competition, namely X5, M Class, QX60, GX (not RX), Q7, etc. Depending on which months you are looking at, the MDX is usually in the top 3. The likes of X5, M Class, MDX, and Enclave keep trading places on the sales chart every month. They are way ahead of Q7, QX, GX, MKT, etc.
But yes, I share the view that the new Pilot is likely to eat away the MDX sales very soon, if it's not already happening now.
Originally Posted by RLX-Sport Hybrid
I will dip a toe into the conversation. The previous Pilot was very different from any MDX model. The new Pilot is way too close to the current MDX for my comfort. Just go on the Acura website and compare the MDX Advance to the Pilot Elite. If I were in the market for a new MDX and drove the new Pilot, I might choose the Pilot. That is not what Acura would want to hear from a die in the wool Acura customer. The MMC MDX needs to be radically different than the Pilot or they will cannibalize their own sales. I have not drove the new Pilot, but based on what I have read they are way too close to each other in every measurement.
Regarding the new Accord, there is way too much "raiding the corporate parts bin" for my Acura blood comfort. I get why Honda did it, but they now have to step up the entire Acura line with even more technology and brand unique bits otherwise the arguments that Acura is just a gussied up Honda will continue. If they build proper cars with fantastic performance while providing unique stance, sheet metal and interiors with at least market segment average economy, they will be a brand that attracts new customers, rather than hoping to keep their customers and not loose overall market share (as they are now). Acura needs to lead from the top down. ALL new technology needs to enter via the Acura line and much later on in the product cycle, a portion of it gets into the Honda line.
I agree, I'd love to have a MDX, but boy, the new Pilot is right up there in terms of features while being like 20% cheaper. Heck, it even has panoramic sunroof which is not available on the MDX.
With most Acura models being Honda+, and more Honda cars becoming Honda+, Acura will be in even more trouble if the products don't improve drastically in the coming years.
That is what i am saying. MDX is the #1 seller in Acura line up, so we can agree it is a successful product for ACURA. But it is really just doing "average" in the market. Now with the New X5, new ML (or whatever they call it now), new Pilot and other new models coming up. It will only means more trouble for MDX since MDX is relatively new too and i doubt any dramatic update will happen for MDX.
The biggest competitor for MDX is Honda's own Pilot since the customer base for these 2 cars share the same "value"
I was VERY surprised when Honda decided to put the 9AT in the pilot and offered the same shifterless design. Almost like Honda did not even care how it will affect its Acura counterparts.
....Regarding the new Accord, there is way too much "raiding the corporate parts bin" for my Acura blood comfort. I get why Honda did it, but they now have to step up the entire Acura line with even more technology and brand unique bits otherwise the arguments that Acura is just a gussied up Honda will continue. If they build proper cars with fantastic performance while providing unique stance, sheet metal and interiors with at least market segment average economy, they will be a brand that attracts new customers, rather than hoping to keep their customers and not loose overall market share (as they are now). Acura needs to lead from the top down. ALL new technology needs to enter via the Acura line and much later on in the product cycle, a portion of it gets into the Honda line.
The Audi A3 is based on the Golf platform, and the Lexus ES is based on the Camry. It's not like Acura is the only company doing this.
The Accord platform is a great place to start, and there's nothing wrong with that imho.
In terms of "raiding the parts bin," I have to say I see very few, if any, parts that are taken from the Accord and put in the TLX. Where are they? Can you show me a picture?
The sheetmetal is different, the interior and controls are different and of higher quality, etc.
The platform has shared parts, but even there Acura beefed things up compared to the Accord. The 2015 TLX has better crash test ratings than the 2015 Accord as a result.
Accord doesn't have PAWS or SH-AWD.
And the TLX did get LKAS, CMB and ACC before the Accord, which only for 2016 gets these as options.
They've just announced that the 2016 Accord gets CarPlay and Android Auto, but isn't it still possible that the 2016 TLX will get this too?
while we are on the topic of the new Pilot. There was one parked next to a Q7 the other day in the park lot. I am usually pretty good from tell cars apart even down to model years. But I really thought it was 2 Q7s in 2 different colors. Especially from the rear 1/4 panel. Even the wheels looked almost identical.
The Audi A3 is based on the Golf platform, and the Lexus ES is based on the Camry. It's not like Acura is the only company doing this.
The Accord platform is a great place to start, and there's nothing wrong with that imho.
In terms of "raiding the parts bin" I have to say I see very few, if any, parts that are taken from the Accord and put in the TLX. Where are they? Can you show me a picture?
The sheetmetal is different, the interior and controls are different and of higher quality, etc.
The platform has shared parts, but even there Acura beefed things up compared to the Accord.
Accord doesn't have PAWS or SH-AWD.
And the TLX did get LKAS, CMB and ACC before the Accord, which only for 2016 gets these as options.
They've just announced that the 2016 Accord gets CarPlay and Android Auto, but isn't it still possible that the 2016 TLX will get this too?
Yes, everything you said is true (except ES is on Avalon's platform now) and we could make the same argument about Lexus and Audi IF A3 and ES are the one cars they have in their lineup.
But fortunately almost all of their other cars have separate platform/chassis and drivetrains.
You can throw CT and NX in there too but at least the engines are different and interior is Dramatically different. If no one tells me that NX200T is a riding on RAV4 platform, i would have never guessed especially with a different engine. Can't say the same about Acura. That is the problem. Not enough differentiation.
PAWS... it's been around for decades even in Honda's own lineup. G35 has it. BMW has it. even freaking Fire trucks have something similar. no one really cares.... wait wrong, except for TLX owners.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 07-29-2015 at 02:13 PM.
Yes, everything you said is true (except ES is on Avalon's platform now) and we could make the same argument about Lexus and Audi IF A3 and ES are the one cars they have in their lineup.
But fortunately almost all of their other cars have separate platform/chassis and drivetrains.
You can throw CT and NX in there too but at least the engines are different and interior is Dramatically different. If no one tells me that NX200T is a riding on RAV4 platform, i would have never guessed especially with a different engine. Can't say the same about Acura. That is the problem. Not enough differentiation.
PAWS... it's been around for decades even in Honda's own lineup. G35 has it. BMW has it. even freaking Fire trucks have something similar. no one really cares.... wait wrong, except for TLX owners.
All of this sounds right to me. However Acura did do one thing right here. They built the RLX-Sport Hybrid! Until you have driven one and really learned how to extract all of the different ways you can experience the thrust, it is very hard to say that Acura is all bad. Not that we are saying that here. Being able to hit 0-60 runs in 4.89 seconds all day long, or pull away from a Porsche Cayman S on the highway when the driver isn't expecting it while in near silence and get 32+ mpg no matter how you drive it, to me is something Acura should be celebrating, but they are not. They have pasteurized the brand to the point that now a buyer who looks at the Pilot and the MDX can be attracted to the MDX, but walk across the street and buy the Pilot and be happy about it is the HUGE problem Honda has made for themselves. The 2016 Accord is now encroaching on the TLX space even more, making the premium one would be charged for the TLX a harder argument. Anyone who looks at an Avalon will not cross shop it with an LS even though they are similar in interior space and overall dimensions. That is not the case with the Accord vs the TLX or even the FWD RLX. If the Acura line had a real seat of the pants advantage in the hp war (exception is the RLX-Sport Hybrid as it is a weapon) over the reciprocal version in the Honda line that would be different. But when the Pilot has about 280 hp and the MDX has 290 hp, that is a problem. Shoot the Pilot has more interior space than the MDX! There is a decent separation between the Infiniti and Nissan lines as well as the Audi/VW lines, but not so in the Acura/Honda world we live in. Very disappointing.
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The Audi A3 is based on the Golf platform, and the Lexus ES is based on the Camry. It's not like Acura is the only company doing this.
The Accord platform is a great place to start, and there's nothing wrong with that imho.
In terms of "raiding the parts bin," I have to say I see very few, if any, parts that are taken from the Accord and put in the TLX. Where are they? Can you show me a picture?
The sheetmetal is different, the interior and controls are different and of higher quality, etc.
The platform has shared parts, but even there Acura beefed things up compared to the Accord. The 2015 TLX has better crash test ratings than the 2015 Accord as a result.
Accord doesn't have PAWS or SH-AWD.
And the TLX did get LKAS, CMB and ACC before the Accord, which only for 2016 gets these as options.
They've just announced that the 2016 Accord gets CarPlay and Android Auto, but isn't it still possible that the 2016 TLX will get this too?
While companies like Audi and Lexus have cars that share platforms with VW and Toyota respectively, their other models are on different, unique platforms.
I personally don't think using the Accord platform for Acura models is a huge concern. SH-AWD for the most part solve the traction/handling issue; and that a lot of Audis are FWD based anyway. Some say Audi has longitudinal drivetrain layout for better styling proportion, which is true. Though Acura has shown that it too can style some good looking cars with transverse layout, namely 3G TL and 1G TL.
The issue though is that, Acura doesn't do enough to differentiate its models from the Honda models.
The ILX doesn't feel a whole lot more fancy/luxury inside than the Civic. Why not making the interior more luxurious?
Other than having SH-AWD as an option, the TLX doesn't really offer a noticeable performance gap between itself and the Accord (both I4 and V6). Why not making a Type S model that could compete with 335i, S4, C400? Perhaps invest some money to make a boosted V6 and tune SH-AWD to be more aggressive? Alternatively, bring the eSH-AWD system to the TLX. Either way, the combination of 350hp with SH-AWD and a well sorted out suspension is more than enough to match the competition, if not blow them away.
And yes, the TLX got LKAS, CMBS, etc earlier than the Accord. But let's look at the present. Before, there are many reasons to get the TLX over the Accord. Now, there are way less reasons to do that. This is the concern. Acura needs to upgrade its models big time to differentiate them from Honda models.
All of this sounds right to me. However Acura did do one thing right here. They built the RLX-Sport Hybrid! Until you have driven one and really learned how to extract all of the different ways you can experience the thrust, it is very hard to say that Acura is all bad. Not that we are saying that here. Being able to hit 0-60 runs in 4.89 seconds all day long, or pull away from a Porsche Cayman S on the highway when the driver isn't expecting it while in near silence and get 32+ mpg no matter how you drive it, to me is something Acura should be celebrating, but they are not. They have pasteurized the brand to the point that now a buyer who looks at the Pilot and the MDX can be attracted to the MDX, but walk across the street and buy the Pilot and be happy about it is the HUGE problem Honda has made for themselves. The 2016 Accord is now encroaching on the TLX space even more, making the premium one would be charged for the TLX a harder argument. Anyone who looks at an Avalon will not cross shop it with an LS even though they are similar in interior space and overall dimensions. That is not the case with the Accord vs the TLX or even the FWD RLX. If the Acura line had a real seat of the pants advantage in the hp war (exception is the RLX-Sport Hybrid as it is a weapon) over the reciprocal version in the Honda line that would be different. But when the Pilot has about 280 hp and the MDX has 290 hp, that is a problem. Shoot the Pilot has more interior space than the MDX! There is a decent separation between the Infiniti and Nissan lines as well as the Audi/VW lines, but not so in the Acura/Honda world we live in. Very disappointing.
I have to slightly disagree with you on the Sport Hybrid- While I don't doubt for even a second that the RLX Sport Hybrid is a fantastic vehicle to drive, the fact that there is so little of them available to the general populous is Acura's biggest fail with that vehicle.
It's along the lines of Acura saying "Check out this cool technology in our flagship sedan... that you can't have! Bwa ha ha ha ha ha!!" So while the RLX having the Sport Hybrid system is a great thing, the fact that no one can really buy it is horrible. What are the 2016 RLX SH production numbers supposed to be? Aren't they expected to hover around 650 cars? Acura plans on building/selling more NSXs every year than that, with about 1200 cars per year.
I personally don't think using the Accord platform for Acura models is a huge concern. SH-AWD for the most part solve the traction/handling issue; and that a lot of Audis are FWD based anyway. Some say Audi has longitudinal drivetrain layout for better styling proportion, which is true. Though Acura has shown that it too can style some good looking cars with transverse layout, namely 3G TL and 1G TL.
1G TL was longitudinal.
4G and 5G Prelude were the only Honda FF transverse cars that had a FR like proportion.
The problem with RLX SH is not the car itself. It is the pricing.
We have talked about this XXXX times. at $65K, Acura is entering a different segment that they currently just cant compete in. At least not with what they have now.
wow...refreshing for once to not have to be the only voice around here speaking some sense of reality...
Acavatti's sudden departure seems oddly coincidental that all these new Honda vehicles are being announced. I wouldn't be surprised if he said "F this" after seeing that Honda clearly has no intention of giving Acura the true differentiation it needs to try and compete in the Luxury vehicle market. I know if I was in his shoes, I would have walked as well. I mean seriously...the new Pilot, the new Accord, a Honda branded NSX and a Honda branded RLX (Legend)???? These are slaps in the face to all the efforts Acavatti has put into the last 2-3 years to bring Acura out of the shadows of Honda and actually start building brand cache and differentiation.
Acura/Honda...the most confused car company in automotive history. Just more reason for me to move to BMW once my RLX lease is up. If I'm going to pay $60k for a vehicle, (hell...ANY product for that matter), I want to stand behind a company that actually has a real sense of strategy, and more importantly...executes on it with precision.
I think someone said it earlier...go home Acura/Honda, you're drunk.
the new Pilot, the new Accord, a Honda branded NSX and a Honda branded RLX (Legend)???? These are slaps in the face to all the efforts Acavatti has put into the last 2-3 years to bring Acura out of the shadows of Honda and actually start building brand cache and differentiation.
The regionalization of Acura in North America predates Mike Accavitti. He knew all his models would make it overseas with H badges.
i have to slightly disagree with you on the sport hybrid- while i don't doubt for even a second that the rlx sport hybrid is a fantastic vehicle to drive, the fact that there is so little of them available to the general populous is acura's biggest fail with that vehicle.
It's along the lines of acura saying "check out this cool technology in our flagship sedan... That you can't have! Bwa ha ha ha ha ha!!" so while the rlx having the sport hybrid system is a great thing, the fact that no one can really buy it is horrible. What are the 2016 rlx sh production numbers supposed to be? Aren't they expected to hover around 650 cars? Acura plans on building/selling more nsxs every year than that, with about 1200 cars per year.
My gripe too!!!! I agree completely!!!!!
Last edited by RLX-Sport Hybrid; 07-29-2015 at 10:13 PM.
The problem with RLX SH is not the car itself. It is the pricing.
We have talked about this XXXX times. at $65K, Acura is entering a different segment that they currently just cant compete in. At least not with what they have now.
why is $65k a problem for RLX hybrid?. Show me a car in that price range that is quieter, faster, handle better on all season 500 tread rating tires with outstanding fuel economic and top notch music system. only the uneducated who does not know anything about automobiles will say its uncompetitive.
Yes it does matter. It only means 1 less customer for MDX = less sales for Acura = less investment in Acura
We won't know the margins, but common sense tells me that MDX should have more margins and Pilot should have more volume.
Shareholders care about margins and consumers care about sales # because it is one of the indications how successful the company is.
So yes it does matter.
MDX 9speet auto is 0-60 in 5.9second. I am sure honda Pilot is full second slower than MDX. they are not in same performance and quality level. and 2017 MMC of MDX will further differentiate it.
MDX 9speet auto is 0-60 in 5.9second. I am sure honda Pilot is full second slower than MDX. they are not in same performance and quality level. and 2017 MMC of MDX will further differentiate it.
it is like comparing BMW 335 with BMW 528i.
Not to worry.
Throw in some aftermarket tires for the Honda Pilot, and the Pilot would beat the MDX instead.
Throw in some aftermarket tires for the Honda Pilot, and the Pilot would beat the MDX instead.
Sounds familiar !?
Those 20inch summer performance tires will cost 2 grand and will still be slower. it is designed for fuel efficiency not performance.
MDX is designed for performance so even flooring it still get good fuel economic. MDX has Auto dimming side mirrors thats big differnece as night time traffic has very bright lights now due to most cars now HID/LED etc.
The allegedly "in the know" folks on TOV are citing Accivitti's abrasive personality and an internecine fight with Mendel for the former's departure. Who knows if it's actually true? We'll never know for sure.
All I can say is that with the significant enhancements to the Honda line, I hope Acura has similar improvements in mind for Acura. I'll take the optimistic route and hope that what's good for Honda means better for Acura, soon. Like Sport Hybrid good.
07-28-2015, 08:31 PM
Okay, the Toyota meme was funny.
