gavriil

Honda will make a mass production V8, or two, a few diesels, etc. before they'd go with turbos

Zapata

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=234399



http://www.honda.co.uk/diesel/

goldmemberer

Really, all that's remaining in that list is the V8s, which are seemingly getting more and more likely. Zapata pointed out the diesel, and I'll go on the turbo: http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=191480

But Gavriil's point still stands: no mass production on these engines in the immediate future. Give it a couple of years, though.

heyitsme

Think we'll see ima and no turbo or v8.

roddymerritt

This is my out look on it. Honda is a company that is building cars around economical demand. Better gas mileage, cheaper price, is what people want. The difference with Honda is that they take a step farther with their performance and quality and deplendablity. Now an $80,000 car is not a cheap car. The performance is great but there are others out there that perform just as well and better for that price. Granted some do come with V8 engines.

This is what I think, I feel that with the introduction of the Acura model cars like the ,RSX, TSX, and New TL, you quickly see better styling and performance. So I said all that to say this, If your going to be in the exoctic business and lead the new acura/honda super cars you have to be the boss. I mean if the TL only needs an intake and exhaust to run with a NSX you need to do something with it. If its driving down the road and is next to a corvette and you can't kill it at the red light you need to do something. If you can't tell the difference between a 91 and a 99 you need to do something to it. Not only do you have to find something with the right price tag, but the performace and styling has got to compete with the competion. I think Honda is looking for something non-turbo, non-supercharged that can still get good gas mileage, still be low edmissions, but kill brands like, Ferrari, Lamborgini, Porsche, ect...

As far as the S2000 goes its done great but it needs a better engine and a sexier style. Its an awsome car don't get me wrong but its just time for a few details to change. A I would like to see a hard top convertable, B it would be nice to see the new 3.0 from the 6 speed accord in it also. Then Honda should take and give the RSX-S the engine from the S2000. As far as style goes its a hot car now and turns heads for anyone who looks at it but I think honda is gonna ditch it cause its out there as far as the rest of their line goes, but I think it could reappear with new style and performace wearing an A on it.

03typeS6spd

better engine??? are you kidding me, i know the 2.2 doesn't sound quite as impressive as the 2.0 but that engine is absolutely insane.... (which to me is the same kinda deal with the nsx engine) they aren't gonna make a hard top convertible version because there is absolutely no room, that is beside the fact that most of the people who buy the s2k would flip over the extra weight, it would destroy the point of that car, it already isn't that lightweight but handles and moves unbelievably in its current state but is fairly stripped down, and they make the regular hardtop plus you can get a lightweight mugen hardtop for bling bling...

i don't find the sound of a 350 hp v6 bad at all, and whoever said you can add an intake and exhaust to the tl and hang with the nsx, you need to go reevaluate and take a ride in an nsx, the new tl couldn't touch an 8 year old nsx, they might not have the best stats, but look at the performance coming off of only 270 hp... (and the powerband it get puts down through)

KavexTrax

An unexpected one two punch just like what Nissan did with the Z and the G35, but both were in the same price range

gavriil

Maybe I should have been more clear. I meant offer diesels in America. I know about their diesels in Europe and elsewhere. I have a thread I opened about the records broken about that diesel engine in this forum.

gavriil

See above about the diesel engine/s and Honda.

About the turbo engine: There is no turbo engine in production by Honda currently (as far as I know, that is a statement that applied globally). And for one to reach the American shores, it will be a long time before it happened.

gavriil

That's a lot more likely.

gavriil

Here is what I think will happen to the S2000. It will disappear in another 2 years.

Two cars will be spawned from its cancelation:

1. The new generation CRX (either coupe only, or coupe and vert or targa). 4 Cylinder engines will be used throughout the lineup with 2.0 liters iVtec the most probably engine.

2. A more expensive roadster (and possibly a coupe 2 seater car) which possibly will wear the Acura badge in the USA (but not in Europe and Japan), which possibly will wear a small V6 (say 2.5-2.7 liters - but still spin faster than all - 270HP possible) and compete with the Z4, SLK and Boxster.

The reason for the above is the fact that the S2000 is not competing at the right "place" right now. All of the others went upmarket (best example the Z3 and Z4 comparison - even the SLK).

gavriil

The Z is selling well, but that's not the case for the G35C.

Minch00

Gav, do you think either of your two considered S2000 spinoffs will be available with SH-AWD?

jwong77

Does anyone even need a more expensive roadster? I remember reading that the market for this type of vehicle is disappearing quite rapidly. That bodes poorly from a sales standpoint, even if the car is unbelievable.

1SICKLEX

GREAT POINT! Totally forgot about that.
Expect that Acura CR-V faster than you think.

roddymerritt

[QUOTE=03typeS6spd]better engine??? are you kidding me, i know the 2.2 doesn't sound quite as impressive as the 2.0 but that engine is absolutely insane.... (which to me is the same kinda deal with the nsx engine) they aren't gonna make a hard top convertible version because there is absolutely no room

Have you not seen the Lexus SC 430.

I'm just sayin the S2000 is such an awsome car that is out of Honda's league here in the states. If it were an Acura it would be a let down cause it doesn't give you that Luxury feel like a Mercedes or Lexus. The car is hott I love it nothing wrong with it and I am not downing the only thing I am saying is that its in between Its half luxury car half economical car. It needs a place instead of being stuck and thats why I think it will loose out as a honda.

As far as the NSX goes its dated everyone says that about the car. When it was released it was way ahead of its time the reason being why its lasted so long, but it time to give some more attention. I think that the cars potiental has been ignored and the car its self forgotten among the hype of the ones around it. Its been around 13 years and the best that they can do is a front face lift, 6 speed tranny and 290hp. Come on even you guys know it could do so more with a little TLC.

RR32CLS

update.....

the new HSC already has a tranny recall and warped rotors recall.

03typeS6spd

the sc430 and the s2k do not even compare, the sc430 is over double the price of the s2k, at least compare the boxster to the s2k, the sc430 is pure luxury and thats it, the s2k would rip it a new 8===D ( O ) on a track...

the z4, boxster, and 350z vert would all be logical choices, not the sc430

i have taken out a slk 320 , and slk 32 amg, and while they both were awesome cars, they have a very numb feeling, anyone would know what i am talking about if you have driven them, they have blinding speed but are hogs on the turns due to their obscene weight...

the sc comes in at well over 1000 lbs (4530 vs. 2835) heavier than the s2k and it couldnt hang with it in the turns if it tried... the engine in the lexus is almost twice the size to give identical 0-60 and 1/4 mile times...


and to gav's theories... they could be right on, but the s2k was never supposed to make it longer than a couple of production years, it was the sales of it that kept it in production...
and keeping it badged as a honda makes more sense than acura given its pricing... no need to butt out more prospective buyers by jacking the price for making it an acura, or cutting in to any nsx sales if they did move it over...


combined with the comment about poor sales http://www.acura-cl.com/forums/showt...9&highlight=z4 as reported by gav..

03typeS6spd

anyone who hasn't driven/ridden in a honda rwd needs to go try it out, it isn't the same feeling of the blunt power of a mustang/350 but it sure as hell will make you with that good old high revving, whining engine in the background

gavriil

I doubt it. Unless Honda has found a way to beat RWD handling characteristics with SHAWD that overall outweigh the cost of SHAWD (added friction and weight).

gavriil

Yes the roadsters currently are having a difficult time, but at $40K for a well equipped Acura roadster which will run with the next gen. Boxster S is not out of the question. Plus such a car will be in existance mainly for bragging rights which will result for bettering Acura's brand (like the NSX for Acura and the S2000 for Honda).

gavriil

I still doubt this news by the way. I think we will see a new NSX next fall. I am guessing a $70K, 2900 lbs, 350HP car that will go against the 911.

Black CL-S 4-Life

Why does everyone say Honda can't produce a V8 engine? Are they that cash strapped?

Zapata

No they could but i think company philosophy is environmently friendly and efficiency mantra(more with less) is why. Also, they don't believe the market exists that gives a v8 a distinct sales advantage over a v6. Push towards more fuel efficient vehicles also is a deterrant.

gavriil

No, it's not about cash. It's because in order to make a V8 invesment viable, you need to use it in a mass production way and the most efficient way to do that is to use it in trucks. And as you know, Honda does not have either:

1. trucks that need a V8 (meaning pickup trucks that need high toweing capacity and super large SUVs)
2. enough trucks in production (in numbers).

The SUT was a hope of mine, but even that sounds like it will be light enough and of light duty which will make a V8 unecessary. A large V6 will be fine for that as well.

gavriil

I believe the above are secondary reasons. The "environment friendly" card is an excuse in my opinion. It's not like V8s kill the environment SOOO much more than V6s. With DOD, etc. V8s have come a long way nowadays.

Zapata

true but with IMA and hybrid systems you can get v8 performance without weight penalty, emissions, fuel consumption etc., Now of course the differences might be small but those are the difference which HOnda uses to set the "green " company philosophy.

gavriil

Two things:

1. There is nobody yet out there that has proven (by producing that is) that a V6 and IMA will be as "good" as a V8. Whatever "good' means. I am not doubting it, just saying that this is a new theory. Meaning, the lack of a V8 for Honda as an argument is older than this new above theory.

2. I am wondering about the validity of the above argument when we know that the gas saved by such a combination, equals to 3-5 years worth of gas, to pay for the added cost of this new technology above.

In other words, what's the logic exactly? Saving the environment by paying more money? But everyone can do this. We can also have windmill power for everyone on the planet if we're gonna go bankrupt as a planet. Extreme example, though I am sure, you see my point.

This "Honda is environmentaly friendly" is a bullshit excuse in my opinion. Honda does not have the capacity to product a V8 and that's all. And the only reason they are careful with gas consumption with all their engines is because people are sensitive to that issue, especially in Europe and Japan.

cusdaddy

I agree somewhat that Honda wants to be seen an environmentally friendly, but the excuses are mostly BS.

A well built V8 can get excellent fuel mileage (some chevy LS1's can get ~30mpg on the highway) and pass strict emissions standards. The reason why Honda doesn't have a V8 is that they don't really need a V8. They don't have large trucks or a very high-end luxury car (S-class, 7 series, A8 class), so they don't want to spend the R&D $$ on a low volume engine. The Cost/Benefit ratio just isn't there. And I agree with their decision, but the rest of the reasons are just excuses IMO.

gavriil

Gas mileage:

2004 Corvette C5 Manual: 19 mpg / 28 mpg
2004 Corvette Z06 Manual: 19 mpg / 28 mpg

2004 Acura NSX: Manual: 17 mpg / 24 mpg

cusdaddy

A friend of mine has a C6 Manual Vette and averaged 30 mph on the highway recently. Damn impressive for a 350hp engine. And seeing 28mph for a LS6 is also pretty sweet.

gavriil

The benefits of OHV and why GM insists on OHV.

roddymerritt

[QUOTE]the sc430 and the s2k do not even compare, the sc430 is over double the price of the s2k, at least compare the boxster to the s2k, the sc430 is pure luxury and thats it, the s2k would rip it a new 8===D ( O ) on a track...

I was talkin about the S2000 wearing an Acura label as I stated in my last post. Oh and the price is to high for it to be a Honda, a base of 33 grand come on. The only thing close is the loaded out Accord for 26,000. Acura needs a convert cause its the only luxury line that doesn't have one. even volvo has one we need it.

1SICKLEX

[QUOTE=roddymerritt]A roadster won't improve any sense of luxury. The S2000 cannot be dressed up, its a very HARD CORE sports car and one of the best.Remember the S2000 was made to celebrate Honda's 50th anniversary.

The SC 430 as stated is a GT. Period. The S2000 and SC430 share the word convertible and that is about all.

03typeS6spd

which is why i say leave it be

goldmemberer

MPG... not miles per hour... cause I'm sure the C6 Vette can go faster than 30 mph on the freeway I got the message, but you did it twice so... yeah =)

gavriil

I was reading the current version of EVO Magazine and they confirmed that sources from Japan say that the NSX is axed indeed. The reason is because Honda will invest in building a "big GT" car to go against the Mercedes SL and Bentley Continental GT. Also, they mentioned that Honda will probably cave in to pressure from the USAmerican market for a closer compeitor to the Boxster and combining that, with the fact that there are no plans for a next generation S2000, chances are that the S2000 is also axed (at least in its current form).

I find it interesting that Honda wants to build an SL fighter, but my first thought was: "can you build an SL competitor without a V8?" Could that be the signal for Honda, at last producing a V8?

03typeS6spd

Rod

They have lots of work to do if they want to have a true SL competitor and not just a cheaper alternative. I doubt they'll do this successfully since Honda is so conservative, but I'd love to be proved wrong.

Minch00

Guess I better place my order soon