2009 SHAWD handling vs 2012 SHAWD
05-14-2016, 12:54 AM
#1
2009 SHAWD handling vs 2012 SHAWD
Hello,
Does anyone know if there was a change made in the suspension setup from 2009 SHAWD and 2012 SHAWD? I have a 2009 SHAWD automatic with 80k Mi and I recently purchased a 2012 SHAWD 6SP M with 50k mi.
I noticed that the handling on the 2012 feels a lot sloppier than my 2009 even thought it has fewer miles. I notice it more at higher speeds and the car just doesn't feel planted to the ground compared to my 2009. The 2009 at higher speed feels really solid and I feel feel confident driving it, the 2012 not so. Is this something that's normal due to softer springs and lighter steering effort? or is there something wrong with my 2012?
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Does anyone know if there was a change made in the suspension setup from 2009 SHAWD and 2012 SHAWD? I have a 2009 SHAWD automatic with 80k Mi and I recently purchased a 2012 SHAWD 6SP M with 50k mi.
I noticed that the handling on the 2012 feels a lot sloppier than my 2009 even thought it has fewer miles. I notice it more at higher speeds and the car just doesn't feel planted to the ground compared to my 2009. The 2009 at higher speed feels really solid and I feel feel confident driving it, the 2012 not so. Is this something that's normal due to softer springs and lighter steering effort? or is there something wrong with my 2012?
Any input will be greatly appreciated.
05-14-2016, 02:25 AM
#2
Senior Moderator
It could be a few things:
1. Alignment
2. Tires
3. The front compliance bushings may be torn causing that feeling. Sadly acura does not sell them by themselves and it requires replacing the full lower control arm.
4. Worn/bad shocks (one bad one could cause this)
5. Broken/Worn endlinks
The TL's setup is pretty much the same besides the 6spd transmission vs the 5spd in the 2009-2011.
1. Alignment
2. Tires
3. The front compliance bushings may be torn causing that feeling. Sadly acura does not sell them by themselves and it requires replacing the full lower control arm.
4. Worn/bad shocks (one bad one could cause this)
5. Broken/Worn endlinks
The TL's setup is pretty much the same besides the 6spd transmission vs the 5spd in the 2009-2011.
05-14-2016, 04:26 AM
#3
It could be a few things:
1. Alignment
2. Tires
3. The front compliance bushings may be torn causing that feeling. Sadly acura does not sell them by themselves and it requires replacing the full lower control arm.
4. Worn/bad shocks (one bad one could cause this)
5. Broken/Worn endlinks
The TL's setup is pretty much the same besides the 6spd transmission vs the 5spd in the 2009-2011.
1. Alignment
2. Tires
3. The front compliance bushings may be torn causing that feeling. Sadly acura does not sell them by themselves and it requires replacing the full lower control arm.
4. Worn/bad shocks (one bad one could cause this)
5. Broken/Worn endlinks
The TL's setup is pretty much the same besides the 6spd transmission vs the 5spd in the 2009-2011.
I definitely feel there may be something amiss with my 2012. I shall get it checked out. First replace and balance the tires, alignment and if still not right, the dealer. I do have btb extended warranty, so hopefully they will cover the repairs. It just didn't make sense that the newer design was worse than the older.
05-14-2016, 11:04 PM
#4
I think I figured out the problem. It's due to the fitment of incorrect offset wheels. 
The previous owner had installed after market rims. 245/45/18 on 18x8 ET40. The correct ET is 55 (OEM). A 15mm difference in the scrub radius. Thus creating a more positive scrub radius with tendency to toe out causing instability in the front end. Also making the steering feel even lighter and causing the spring rate to feel softer. That's too bad, I really like the look of the rims. But I rather have better handling.
The previous owner had installed after market rims. 245/45/18 on 18x8 ET40. The correct ET is 55 (OEM). A 15mm difference in the scrub radius. Thus creating a more positive scrub radius with tendency to toe out causing instability in the front end. Also making the steering feel even lighter and causing the spring rate to feel softer. That's too bad, I really like the look of the rims. But I rather have better handling.
05-14-2016, 11:06 PM
#5
Senior Moderator
I think I figured out the problem. It's due to the fitment of incorrect offset wheels. The previous owner had installed after market rims. 245/45/18 on 18x8 ET40. The correct ET is 55 (OEM). A 15mm difference in the scrub radius. Thus creating a more positive scrub radius with tendency to toe out causing instability in the front end. Also making the steering feel even lighter and causing the spring rate to feel softer. That's too bad, I really like the look of the rims. But I rather have better handling.
The previous owner had installed after market rims. 245/45/18 on 18x8 ET40. The correct ET is 55 (OEM). A 15mm difference in the scrub radius. Thus creating a more positive scrub radius with tendency to toe out causing instability in the front end. Also making the steering feel even lighter and causing the spring rate to feel softer. That's too bad, I really like the look of the rims. But I rather have better handling.Get an alignment and balancing and all should be good!
05-15-2016, 01:20 AM
#6
I think one way to correct my problem is to install a much wider tire on the 8 inch ET40 rim. So that the SAI is extended more toward the outer side of the tire (the SAI meets the ground within the tire's contact patch). Creating greater negative scrub radius. I would probably need 285/40/18. Which is silly to put on a 8 inch rim. The previous owner should have gotten a wider rim, more like 9.5" or kept the ET at 55. In any case, I will check with the wheel alignment shop to be sure before I toss the rims. Hopefully I am wrong and it can be corrected. I appreciate your input and listening to my rambling at 2 in the morning.
05-15-2016, 03:46 AM
#7
Senior Moderator
Thanks. I will check with my shop, but I don't think you can correct the scrub radius with a wheel alignment. You can correct the camber but not the scrub radius. The scrub radius is related to steering axis inclination (SAI) which is a nonadjustable angle between a true vertical drawn through the center of the tire and a line drawn through the upper and lower ball joints. To correct the scrub radius due to insufficient offset, you would need to move the upper ball joint inward. Which will have it's own ill effect.
I think one way to correct my problem is to install a much wider tire on the 8 inch ET40 rim. So that the SAI is extended more toward the outer side of the tire (the SAI meets the ground within the tire's contact patch). Creating greater negative scrub radius. I would probably need 285/40/18. Which is silly to put on a 8 inch rim. The previous owner should have gotten a wider rim, more like 9.5" or kept the ET at 55. In any case, I will check with the wheel alignment shop to be sure before I toss the rims. Hopefully I am wrong and it can be corrected. I appreciate your input and listening to my rambling at 2 in the morning.
I think one way to correct my problem is to install a much wider tire on the 8 inch ET40 rim. So that the SAI is extended more toward the outer side of the tire (the SAI meets the ground within the tire's contact patch). Creating greater negative scrub radius. I would probably need 285/40/18. Which is silly to put on a 8 inch rim. The previous owner should have gotten a wider rim, more like 9.5" or kept the ET at 55. In any case, I will check with the wheel alignment shop to be sure before I toss the rims. Hopefully I am wrong and it can be corrected. I appreciate your input and listening to my rambling at 2 in the morning.
Also you may have tires that aren't as good as the ones on your 2009, something else to think about!
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05-15-2016, 06:06 PM
#9
Thanks all for your input.
It has been confirmed. It was the wheels. The offset was too small for the width of the rim. I switched it out with the 2009 OEM wheels and all the problems have disappeared. Well, almost all, the steering feel is still too light for my liking, but from what I understand it was by design. Now my 2009 feels all loose.
Here is the conclusion. Having too little offset (40ET) on the 8 inch, brought the wheels center line too far out (This can't be corrected with a wheel alignment). Thus, increasing the scrub radius, making it feel as if the spring and damping rate was lower on the stock suspension (due to longer leverage point, the center of the wheel being further away from the fulcrum point). This also makes the wheel and tire feel heavier than they are (from the spring's point of view). Slower reaction.
The increase in the scrub radius/more positive scrub radius, also causes torque steering, as our front wheels are powered. With positive scrub radius, the wheels will try to toe in when pulling. If one side has more traction than the other, it will pull the steering towards the wheel with less traction. I was getting torque steer before when hard shifting 1-2 and 2-3, even with SH. Now it's gone.
Lesson learned. Make sure to keep the wheel's center line as close to the stock as possible when installing after market wheels. Now this gives me an excuse to tell my wife why I need new wheels. Stage 2 up grade.
It has been confirmed. It was the wheels. The offset was too small for the width of the rim. I switched it out with the 2009 OEM wheels and all the problems have disappeared. Well, almost all, the steering feel is still too light for my liking, but from what I understand it was by design. Now my 2009 feels all loose.
Here is the conclusion. Having too little offset (40ET) on the 8 inch, brought the wheels center line too far out (This can't be corrected with a wheel alignment). Thus, increasing the scrub radius, making it feel as if the spring and damping rate was lower on the stock suspension (due to longer leverage point, the center of the wheel being further away from the fulcrum point). This also makes the wheel and tire feel heavier than they are (from the spring's point of view). Slower reaction.
The increase in the scrub radius/more positive scrub radius, also causes torque steering, as our front wheels are powered. With positive scrub radius, the wheels will try to toe in when pulling. If one side has more traction than the other, it will pull the steering towards the wheel with less traction. I was getting torque steer before when hard shifting 1-2 and 2-3, even with SH. Now it's gone.
Lesson learned. Make sure to keep the wheel's center line as close to the stock as possible when installing after market wheels. Now this gives me an excuse to tell my wife why I need new wheels. Stage 2 up grade.
The following users liked this post:
csmeance (05-15-2016)
02-15-2017, 02:30 AM
#10
Thanks all for your input.
It has been confirmed. It was the wheels. The offset was too small for the width of the rim. I switched it out with the 2009 OEM wheels and all the problems have disappeared. Well, almost all, the steering feel is still too light for my liking, but from what I understand it was by design. Now my 2009 feels all loose.
Here is the conclusion. Having too little offset (40ET) on the 8 inch, brought the wheels center line too far out (This can't be corrected with a wheel alignment). Thus, increasing the scrub radius, making it feel as if the spring and damping rate was lower on the stock suspension (due to longer leverage point, the center of the wheel being further away from the fulcrum point). This also makes the wheel and tire feel heavier than they are (from the spring's point of view). Slower reaction.
The increase in the scrub radius/more positive scrub radius, also causes torque steering, as our front wheels are powered. With positive scrub radius, the wheels will try to toe in when pulling. If one side has more traction than the other, it will pull the steering towards the wheel with less traction. I was getting torque steer before when hard shifting 1-2 and 2-3, even with SH. Now it's gone.
Lesson learned. Make sure to keep the wheel's center line as close to the stock as possible when installing after market wheels. Now this gives me an excuse to tell my wife why I need new wheels. Stage 2 up grade.
It has been confirmed. It was the wheels. The offset was too small for the width of the rim. I switched it out with the 2009 OEM wheels and all the problems have disappeared. Well, almost all, the steering feel is still too light for my liking, but from what I understand it was by design. Now my 2009 feels all loose.
Here is the conclusion. Having too little offset (40ET) on the 8 inch, brought the wheels center line too far out (This can't be corrected with a wheel alignment). Thus, increasing the scrub radius, making it feel as if the spring and damping rate was lower on the stock suspension (due to longer leverage point, the center of the wheel being further away from the fulcrum point). This also makes the wheel and tire feel heavier than they are (from the spring's point of view). Slower reaction.
The increase in the scrub radius/more positive scrub radius, also causes torque steering, as our front wheels are powered. With positive scrub radius, the wheels will try to toe in when pulling. If one side has more traction than the other, it will pull the steering towards the wheel with less traction. I was getting torque steer before when hard shifting 1-2 and 2-3, even with SH. Now it's gone.
Lesson learned. Make sure to keep the wheel's center line as close to the stock as possible when installing after market wheels. Now this gives me an excuse to tell my wife why I need new wheels. Stage 2 up grade.
02-16-2017, 01:52 PM
#11
You seem to understand this a lot and I don't lol. So if the rims I'm looking at currently say the scrub radius will be positive 20mm, will that too make my car drive badly? I got the info from a site that measures the stock wheel vs. the wheel you want, so it's an estimate. I was looking at some niche's 20x9 with a +35 offset. Your thoughts please?
Chris,
I am no expert in this matter. My conclusions are based on my personal experience and from what I was able to learn on the net. The after market wheels I had were same dimensions as the stock 18 inch rims, except for the offset (40ET vs 55ET Stock). I was definitely able to feel the difference between the two. So going to 35ET, I would assume will be even more noticeable. I see a lot of members here running 35ET, maybe they can tell you how their vehicle's handling has changed vs running stock wheels. Maybe they have a secret that I am not aware of. I personally would rather have better handling than better style. Good Luck!!
02-16-2017, 04:57 PM
#12
Chris,
I am no expert in this matter. My conclusions are based on my personal experience and from what I was able to learn on the net. The after market wheels I had were same dimensions as the stock 18 inch rims, except for the offset (40ET vs 55ET Stock). I was definitely able to feel the difference between the two. So going to 35ET, I would assume will be even more noticeable. I see a lot of members here running 35ET, maybe they can tell you how their vehicle's handling has changed vs running stock wheels. Maybe they have a secret that I am not aware of. I personally would rather have better handling than better style. Good Luck!!
I am no expert in this matter. My conclusions are based on my personal experience and from what I was able to learn on the net. The after market wheels I had were same dimensions as the stock 18 inch rims, except for the offset (40ET vs 55ET Stock). I was definitely able to feel the difference between the two. So going to 35ET, I would assume will be even more noticeable. I see a lot of members here running 35ET, maybe they can tell you how their vehicle's handling has changed vs running stock wheels. Maybe they have a secret that I am not aware of. I personally would rather have better handling than better style. Good Luck!!
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