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I have the ingalls arm and look how out of spec the rear toe was not sure if I have kit w/ new bushings or not but obviously something is going on that is not normal. We'll see how long car stays aligned properly
I put my stock arm back and when with the spc unit that replaces the top arm. The ingalls/ j power bushing are shit.
Exactly. There is no reason whatsoever to use ingalls/jpower unless you want to give up driving for looks.
(given that if one need THAT much adjustment in camber so that his/her stock toe bolt can't even handle it, one lowered it for the looks)
And, alignment gets twisted the moment your car rolls off the rack. The problem with this rubber bushigns (no matter how hard, it won't be as hard as spherical bearing) is that it flexes too much while driving and it will give your butt a nasty car sickness and make you sick of how your car drives.
Now... they're ALL spherical bearings.... wait for 99% of the population to whine about vibration and ride harshness
but.. NICE FIND!
*drools*
Personally I wanna get them when OEM bearing wears out and weld them exactly same as stock length and keep using SPC camber adjustment.
Last edited by 4drviper; 01-06-2015 at 05:57 PM.
Reason: Oh my god $700?!
Also bought these Accord Cl7 / Tsx Rear Lateral Arm Toe Adjustment HR-6697 Only £233.70 This set has hardened rubber bushings (see description below) I am going to try to match up and create my own. Spherical bearing on outside toe arm and harden rubber on inside toe arm--just like stock but adjustable. May do same with camber arm, not sure yet. Yes, was pricey, $900 all in with delivery, but I will have an extra complete set to sell if I choose. And best of all I anticipate car will feel nice and tight. We'll see how it goes.
HardRace Harden Rubber Bushing
Hardness is 150% higher than OE rubber bushings
Solid steering response and driving suspension feel
Resist side inclined while cornering at high speed maneuvers
Made with high strength and anti-crack rubber material
Viscosity between rubber and metal is about 2000kgs
Hardrace isn't a new brand...we've seend and heard of their parts. I do not like their front upper arm design, but these rear links look promising. We've dispatched an email off to them. We'd like to do a practical comparison of the parts versus the Ingalls.
However, Ingalls are NOT shit. If you have a problem with your bushings and your solution was to spend $900 in replacement arms instead of inspecting, reporting to us, and getting a free set of replacement bushings that would be your prerogative. We encourage any and all customers who've had trouble with Ingalls parts to contact us for support.
Will end up costing me half that because I know when I get them on someone will want the other set. If not, who cares. Ingalls cost $180 for the set. They want $45 to replace bad bushings with better but still soft bushings, and I have to get car aligned 5 times a year to keep in spec. That's another $500 minimum. Crazy. But most import thing is the soft handling and the fact that Acura/Honda put spherical bushings on toe arm for a reason. Ingalls should have followed suit. Below are pics of both sets. As you can see the Hardrace look almost identical to stock arm except the rubber bushings are 150% stiffer. Also have option of all spherical. One thing I do wish Hardrace would do, which I plan to do on my own, is make the toe arm with one spherical side and one rubber side like stock. Oh well... Once installed I'll report back. First image are the all spherical...second is the rubber..
I don't blame you for wanting to try something else. And these arms look pretty good. We definitely look forward to your feedback. I'm wondering if you did a swap on all 4 arms and did a rubber bushing and bearing on each end of all the arms. You'd have two sets of half/half which seems like it would work pretty well.
It is true though, we've been getting bushing replacements for free as needed...but most people have not asked at all. It honestly is a disservice to the companies you are buying from when you don't provide negative feedback directly. Posting in a forum, while very impactful on a parts' sales, is not helpful in making improvements at all.
We wish for the day when people buying car parts will wise up and start complaining about the stuff they are not happy about to the retailers and manufacturers who make and sell products, instead of or along-side posting in forums.
I don't blame you for wanting to try something else. And these arms look pretty good. We definitely look forward to your feedback. I'm wondering if you did a swap on all 4 arms and did a rubber bushing and bearing on each end of all the arms. You'd have two sets of half/half which seems like it would work pretty well.
It is true though, we've been getting bushing replacements for free as needed...but most people have not asked at all. It honestly is a disservice to the companies you are buying from when you don't provide negative feedback directly. Posting in a forum, while very impactful on a parts' sales, is not helpful in making improvements at all.
We wish for the day when people buying car parts will wise up and start complaining about the stuff they are not happy about to the retailers and manufacturers who make and sell products, instead of or along-side posting in forums.
Was thinking about doing just that. I may add the spherical bearing onto outside camber arm as well. Will check it out when they arrive.
Marcus, you sell amazing stuff and I have bought from you in the past, and I'm sure I will continue to do so. I get it about having the bushings replaced for free but that would also mean at least a week turnaround time and no guarantee same thing won't happen. Probably why not many takers.
Maybe you can relay to Ingalls, since you are a distributor, all the feedback you see here on this forum and they can make improvements if they so desire and is cost effective for them. But lets face it, 03-08 cars are getting old so I doubt they will care much. You are correct in saying the ingalls are not shit. They just need tweaking. I think the biggest think they can do now, since they already upgraded the bushings, is add the one spherical bearing. Even if the other rubber bushings are still a little soft it will definitely be an improvement. From what I've read here, and from my own experience, (see my WAY out of spec toe numbers in earlier post here) it is the toe arm bushings that seem to be the ones to warp/ fail more often and I'm pretty confident it is mainly due to lack of the spherical bearing on outside toe arm. The camber bushings, soft as they may be, have held up, at least for me.
Mr. MrHeeltoe, you probably don't get that many complaints because some people don't even bother checking the tires or alignment thinking that Ingalls is the best kit. They think it's an "install and forget it" setup. For someone as anal as me about my car who does maintenance on my own car, I notice every single little detail about the suspension and tires. The rear toe alignment was off even when the arms were new and continue to be off, now with arms rusted. It's even worse with load in the trunk or rear seats. I responded in another thread about this, but I have at least 5 alignment sheets to show the out-of-spec toe.
t-rd, people look at their tires, though. Bad toe kills tires in a very short amount of distance. While people are not getting their alignments checked they definitely would have someone eyeballing their tires with oil changes and whatnot. I feel confident this is not a widespread issue, and certainly not one unsolvable.
I have a question for both you and cfv22....how many honest miles are on your shocks, and what type of shocks are in your cars?
90k miles on the HFP suspension. But as I stated before, the toe was already off shortly after alignment, and at every alignment, when HFP suspension was installed 3 years ago. This is only 1" of lowering.
I will be doing a load test once I get the arms off and take a video of it.
That suspension is getting a little worn...I would suspect you are getting a little more movement in the rear end, dynamically, than you were 60k ago, and that is contributing to wear on the tires as well.
I have been called by a number of TL and Accord (not so much TSX, oddly) owners, not customers or users of this product but people with completely stock cars, who have chronic toe and inner wear issues. They always call me look for a camber kit or toe kit or whatever their mechanic told them they needed. I turn them off of these parts because a stock car should not need alignment aids.
A lot of times I determine is due to sagging in the rear. Sagging doesn't normally happen with worn shocks but I've begun to feel that worn shocks are causing some issues in the rear that always looks like an alignment issue. It has not been proven, but it is the most logical reason to think people are having rear alignment issues.
We all know that height change alters the alignment. Furthering that, as the road surface changes the dampers' job is to limit height changes in a dynamic scenario. Worn shocks will allow excessive height change while driving, and will cause excessive wear. This is especially notices on high-speed roads such as highways and freeways. (at 30k a year I assume you are driving a lot of highway miles, yourself).
I would love to see the condition of your arms. Would you be willing to trade them for a new set of arms to get your longer term feedback on a new set?
OR, are you willing to take a replacement set of dampers at our cost and KEEP the existing kit in the car to see if this has any impact on your alignment woes? I'd really like to get to the bottom of this issue!
I located the original receipt, and I purchased the Ingalls kit in July of 2011 from ultrarev.com. Thanks for the offer anyway
You have a valid point regarding the rear sagging after 90k miles on the original suspension. However, I'd like to throw in another valid point. I changed out the original stock height suspension with HFP at 98k miles, because the rear left strut actually blew... a fat guy sat in that corner the previous year and I hit a pot hole right at that corner Prior to that, I got only 2 alignments, and the toe was always within spec. I rarely carry passengers, or hundreds of pounds of stuff in the trunk. I do see the front driver side sagging because I see the caster increase.
Looking at the alignment sheets:
- In July of 2011, when I got the HFP suspension installed, the 1" lowering caused both negative camber and toe to happen -> NORMAL.
- Every year after that, the rears almost always turned positive
I'd like to think I don't have to invest in a full set of suspension every 60 to 90k miles. But this might be the case. I'm also not pleased with the very rusty status of the Ingalls arms. My original inclination of using the Ingalls arms were actually from your article regarding the SPC arms' splitting boot issue, which now has been resolved. I remember getting a set of SPC arms, then selling them off without installing them. It has now come a full circle.
I will take some shots of the condition of the Ingalls arms when I get a chance.
I have 30K honest miles on TL-S A-Spec suspension. Barely 1 inch lowered. Had ingalls kit installed in Feb 2011. 2 sets of tires (both with severe inner rear tire wear) and many alignments later I finally decided to finally try something new. Still waiting for delivery of hardrace arms. Will post install pics, alignment and another alignment 1-3-months later to see if all stayed close to spec. With ingalls the toe would be out pretty quick. Camber stayed true longer. I am convinced the issue is with the lack of spherical bearing on the outside rear toe arm as well as the soft rubber bushing but I'm no expert. Will have to see if changing those 2 things with the new arms fixes the issue. We will see......
I am not sure when they changed them but it would have been in the last 12-18 months or so. There had been reports of people having bushing issues, and while very few people had come back with a problem (and essentially nobody sent in parts for warranty replacement) they make the bushing profile different and firmed them up.
It is hard for Ingalls to say there was ever a problem with these or that a change was even needed. But, the bushing changed anyway.
I found a shop that specializes in Honda's in the suburb of Chicago here. They do custom work, engine swaps and so on. I just called and spoke to the shop owner, telling him that I need to replace the Ingalls camber kit arms with the SPC ones. He said, "yes, we come across a lot of Ingalls being replaced, people have problems with them." So...... umm... I will find out the truth on this soon.
Same here, I'm looking to get this done next Friday at a shop. Decided not to work in the super cold garage because I need to swap 3 arms per rear side. I will post results here.
What I meant was how long does it take to know whether or not the bushings are strong enough to stay in alignment? Is this an immediate thing as soon as you drive off, does it take x amount of miles / time etc?
I can't give you an answer on that because I don't have loads of money to keep doing alignments to to find out when it gets out of spec. I just know that it gets out of spec in as short as 6 month without hitting pot holes.
We should also mention that tr-d's experience is not typical. Perhaps not isolated, but certainly not typical.
FamilyGuy, it seems like you are looking for "how long can I expect the alignment to hold" and my answer is definitely "the alignment you should expect the alignment to be good until it may go out under normal circumstances of driving, the same you might expect from the alignment's stability with standard parts installed." I have no reason to believe otherwise given the success of this part over many years.
The fact that some people have had issues over a shorter term does not implicate that you will. Especially since the bushing has been updated.
I'd like input here that I'll still claim warranty on my existing Ingalls arm with Ingalls and resell them off for a lower price to a member or an independent shop here for "R&D" purpose and get some real stats on here.
With Normal driving conditions:
- lowered 1" -> do an alignment check every month, when does toe get thrown out?
- lowered more than 1", but less than 3" -> do an alignment check every month, when does toe get thrown out?
- lowered more than 3" with mad camber -> do an alignment check every month, when does toe get thrown out? -> I've heard alignment going out right after on this one.
We should also mention that tr-d's experience is not typical. Perhaps not isolated, but certainly not typical.
FamilyGuy, it seems like you are looking for "how long can I expect the alignment to hold" and my answer is definitely "the alignment you should expect the alignment to be good until it may go out under normal circumstances of driving, the same you might expect from the alignment's stability with standard parts installed." I have no reason to believe otherwise given the success of this part over many years.
The fact that some people have had issues over a shorter term does not implicate that you will. Especially since the bushing has been updated.
I'm about to start buying everything I need for a coil over suspension. I still don't know what I need as far as adjustable arms and links and stuff like that, trying to plan as best possible to avoid alignment issues. I also don't want to pay for monthly alignments. I don't plan on dropping the car more than 2"
Ingals updated their bushings, but t-rd is installing SPC units, not ingals.
Up to a 2" drop, what am I looking at? I plan to get skunk2 front adjustable camber and that's all for the front as far as I can tell (?), what about the rear? I assume camber there as well plus maybe toe?
Dropping 1" on HFP suspension on my 07 Accord gave the rears a -3 degree of camber according to my first alignment. So to bring it back to stock spec of equal to or under -1.5 degree, +1.5 degree had to be adjusted. The SPC arm allows for -2 to +4 degree of adjustment. So I'm thinking if you are going to drop no more than 2", you'll need to bring back +3 to 4 degrees but I can't say this for certain. The Ingalls kit suggests it allows for -1.5 to +3 degree of movement which is of a smaller range than SPC. I'm still confused why the Ingalls kit gives more camber adjustment, perhaps because the lower front control arm is being moved instead of the upper arm.
Another thing I'd like to point out is that every alignment guy told me how hard it is to keep camber or toe in check while the other arm is being moved for the Ingalls kit. I went to Honda last December, they adjusted the toe by a few .0x degrees to bring back to zero and the camber went from -1.3 to -1.6. I'm going with SPC now because members here are confirming that camber changes by the upper control arm does not change the toe, which is a HUGE plus.
I've also had issues with the Ingalls kit as well! Multiple alignments by same shop (Acura dealer), and then found a guy who does alignments by the "old school" method (hand measurements-he's been doing this for over 30yrs). Same result, toe kept going out of whack. Contacted Marcus, had a good conversation, contacted Ingalls, they wanted $40 per set of arms, for replacement bushings. I can't remember how much I've spent on alignments, but it was way more than the arms themselves. I removed them and put stock arms back on, and plan to go the SPC upper arm route. I haven't purchased them yet, as I have bought a house, and have a wedding coming up in a lil over a month (all within a yr). (Priorities) I have a second vehicle, so TL hasn't been used that much.
I am lowered only about 1.6" frnt and 1.8" rear. Koni sp3/H&R sports. I could write a more complete message, just don't have the time.
01-01-2015, 10:13 AM
Prior to that, I got only 2 alignments, and the toe was always within spec. I rarely carry passengers, or hundreds of pounds of stuff in the trunk. I do see the front driver side sagging because I see the caster increase.
