Limitless

Hi Everyone,

I've posted here a few times, and always get amazing help, so once again I'm back for everyone's expertise.

Here's the short version of the story:
Been driving about 6 months with poor gas mileage (about 16-18mpg), used to get about 25-27mpg--could never figure out why. On Thursday of last week, I tried to start my car and it would fire up but not turn over. Finally got it started (after holding the gas pedal down for 20 secs...but the whole time not feeling any RPM or juice, until it finally "clicked" in and started), drove it home. After 5 miles, the car shuddered and the CEL came on along with VSA. Car felt normal so I kept driving home. Got to a stoplight after being on the highway the entire time, car stalled. Tried to restart it, car began to steam from the hood and overheated on me. Had it towed home. Took it to my mechanic, he saw bubbles coming from the coolant system (radiator cap was damaged from the steam, we also saw one of the two radiator fans wasnt working, and radiator bottle was damaged from high temperature) which led him to state "uh oh, head gasket may be damaged."

mechanic told me to take it to dealer and have them do a block/hydrocarbon test. I was adamant at dealership I needed this ONE test done so I could be sure head gasket was blown before I went ahead and started fixing other things before fixing the main issue. Dealership called me back today and said they also see the bubbles coming from the coolant system/radiator so they are sure head gasket is blown. Quoted me around $4000 for everything, breakdown attached. I told them there was no way I was going to potentially spend that much if i wasnt 150% sure head gasket was blown and the least they could do is do the hydrocarbon/block test for me so I could see it. That's where we are at now...

My Questions:

1) Does anyone have any idea why the car might have not started to begin with? Seems fishy it didnt start then all the sudden it overheats...almost as though they have to be related. Everything else I understand about what happened (overheating caused damage to engine/coolant system etc) but I don't get why maybe the car initially wouldn't start?

2) The CEL came back as P2195 O2 sensor signal biased / stuck lean bank 1 sensor 1. Just in case that helps, FYI. Does this relate to potentially my bad gas mileage for 6 months leading up to my car overheating?

3) Is anything like this worth considering?

4) Is the dealership estimate for parts and labor WAYYY too high or is it me? Check out the breakdown. Head gasket $2620?! Every other source I see says it should be approximately 1K. Dealership said 16 hours of labor...wtf? And lots of sources say head gasket can be done yourself and its not complicated. Also, the engine mount prices seem ABSURD based on what I saw people pay on this forum and other online sources.

Bottom line, I just need some help with knowing if I'm being charged way too much and trying to be taken advantage of, along with any additional info/thoughts you guys have on what happened to my car and best way to go about resolving it now. It really ran AMAZING until the gas mileage issue. Even then it was fine, just paid a bit extra in gas. This is the first major issue of my car, and I don't want to lose it, but being that my car is worth around 6K...if I truly have to spend like 4K to fix it, yeah--probably won't do that.

Thank you in advance for all the help, you guys here are the most knowledgeable and helpful always so I appreciate it. If you have any questions or need more info on anything just let me know.

-Limitless

UlsterBoy13

Ok im gonna say it, but if you noticed something 6 months ago shoulda had it looked at then.....but whatever, what's done is done.

I cant comment on the head gasket etc, but those mount prices at a shop are on par with what i have seen/been quoted.

You can always call around a few other places and ask them their prices.

UlsterBoy13

Just gotta ask - did you get her 105k service done on schedule??

thoiboi

You can get a new engine for about that price I bet...

Limitless

Yes, had all the service done at 105K as required (spark plugs, timing belt, water pump, etc).

To be fair I did have the dealership look at the gas mileage issue when it first started--they claimed there was NOTHING WRONG with it. Should I take it back to that dealership and kick up a shit storm cause somehow that could be the reason my car ended up overheating? It's on my invoice that they checked the gas mileage and there was no issue--clearly, there was/is. Like I said, I have no idea if somehow that was linked/caused somehow the overheating...

Thanks

Limitless

Update: dealership just called me, they did hydrocarbon/block test...coming back inconclusive (no color change with the chemicals, in other words no fuel showing in the coolant system)...but he says in the 20 years hes done this its clear from the bubbling (see this link: ) that there is a head gasket issue.

Updating as things happen. I'm driving there now to see it myself.

Alexns05

I don't even have to look at the prices to tell you you're being ripped of if you get the repairs done at a dealership. Just find a reputable independent shop to fix this for half the cost. For $4000 you can get used high mileage TL.

Limitless

Just got back from dealership...did the hydrocarbon test, results came back negative (no fuel showing in the coolant system according to the test). Dealer service rep said in 20 years this is a typical result, the test usually doesnt come back positive but the bubbles are a clear indication there is a head gasket issue.

Seems bizarre to me to have a dedicated test to see if there is fuel in the radiator but I'm being told the test doesn't usually work well?

Not sure what to do, maybe drive it around some and just see if it's gonna continue to overheat? I'm not entirely convinced there's a head gasket issue, but I'm just relaying what I'm being told. And like I said above, the price seems just completely absurd...most online sources say 1K for head gasket or less, not $2600.

I'm in Atlanta Georgia, in case anyone knows someone I can bring this to personally.

quanaman

iTrader: (4)

These cars don't usually have headgasket problems, so I personally am surprised.


Taking a wild guess, but it could be something else that caused the car to overheat like a stuck thermostat, but that extreme heat probably blew the headgasket too.

If you have external components like the rad cap and other stuff damaged from the heat, you can probably bet the heat ruined the head gasket too.

Limitless

Thanks.

Assuming head gasket, can anyone comment on the 4 questions I posted above directly?

Limitless

Bump...could use some help, gotta make decisions on this asap

quanaman

iTrader: (4)

I can't really answer the first two questions,

But I would never trust a fix that comes from a can. More often than not they do more damage than good.


And yes their estimate is way high. For reference I did s head gasket on my old Acura legend which is similar although the engine is mounted differently. And it cost me $1100 total with parts.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

head gasket is like 60 bucks to 100 dollars.
the killer is labor.
two heads have to come off.
the heads are the top half of the engine...

it took me like a week to take off the heads by myself. (First timer, but nonetheless is a daunting task)

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

I personally would check 105k maintenance items...like water pump, timing belt, etc... the water pump can leak coolant and would over heat the car.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

there has to be something that caused the over heat condition...
the car just doesnt over heat for no reason, a catalyst sparked and the cause is OVER HEAT!

so, I would be looking at water pump, thermostat, maybe head gaskets.

those would be your suspects and culprits

Limitless

Thanks! Did you see my itemized bill?
The radiator fan was broke and the radiator cap was also broke.

The dealership did the 105K tune up, any way to make them absorb some of these costs now due to overheating?

I guess I don't know what the hell is best course of action. I can't see paying this much $$$ though. I guess I can see what a local mechanic would charge

musiclevelz5

Also in the future be sure to constantly check your temperature gauge while your driving.

This tiny but very important thing (every person should do) could have saved your head gasket from blowing. The key is finding out your gauge is moving higher than it should and then finding the issue and resolving it however necessary.

If you cannot afford the dealer pricing then find a reputable Honda Acura shop to change your head gaskets. Be warned also that new head gaskets might not fix the problem if the head or blocked was warped.

quanaman

iTrader: (4)

Not sure about the block, but typically if heads are warped they go to the machine shop and get decked. I've heard of people checking them and then sending them away, and I've also heard of people just always sending them out just to be sure. When I did my head gasket on my e30 (1 head vs two) I had it decked. On my legend, both were fine.


Warping can be fixed, but if there are any cracks in either of the heads, thats where you're fucked.

nfnsquared

OP, any steam/white smoke from the exhaust? Check the dipstick and look inside the oil filler cap: is the oil milky? Did you ever notice the temp gauge needle being higher than normal before the single incident? Where was the temp gauge when the car "shuddered"? What about when it "stalled"?

Will the car start and run right now? IIWU, I'd buy a new radiator cap, slap that on, start it up in the dealer lot and monitor the temp gauge for the first 5 minutes or so. If it runs OK and the temp stays normal, I'd drive it home, carefully monitoring the temp gauge. Once home, I'd replace the fan assembly.

And yeah, a bad O2 sensor could cause poor gas mileage...

Limitless

No steam/white smoke from exhaust I've seen thus far.

No Oil that's milky.

There was dark colored (almost black) SLUDGE on the resevoir for the coolant...on the outside of it. Looks as though the steam shot out the resevoir after it heated up so much, the cap is all melted and the stick inside of it is all melted too--definitely need a new resevoir tank. I've read this sludge may be engine oil? I can't be certain, just a guess, but FYI on what I observed.

Never noticed the temp gauge higher before the incident (to be fair, never really was looking)

When the car shuddered, did not notice the temp gauge so I'm not sure.

When it stalled, I attempted to restart and it wouldnt start. It then began to steam/smoke from hood and I realized it was overheating. I did not notice the gauge then--I assume it was right at the "H" line though at that point.

Here's the latest:
I took the car from the dealer and said I wanted to drive it a bit before I did any work on it...which is BS, I just don't wanna pay them 4K+ cause that's nuts. But I was curious how the car would perform. Additional coolant was put in after I took it to my initial mechanic (before going to the dealership), and I drove it home from the dealer with no issue. I let it idle in traffic, no issue. I let it idle at home for 20 min, no issue. The temp gauge barely moved...even with 1 fan being dead.

I did replace the radiator cap already, FYI. I have an appt tomorrow with an Acura mechanic in the area...I was gonna go and just say "my car overheated, please fix...I know only that 1 fan is out, just wanted that fixed and then look around to see what else may need work" and see if he came back with the same crap of blown head gasket. Good idea?
I planned on replacing the fan assembly as you stated, but I also wasn't sure if it was silly to do that without replacing (assuming necessary) head gasket cause i think lots of stuff has to be removed to get at the fan. Not sure...but regardless, obviously if I dont have to do anything with the head gasket and somehow this is all just 1 overheating and the car will be fine now, I'd be THRILLED

I checked the coolant level just now...definitely low. I am thinking to add more coolant so I see it's full, and then monitor it to see how much (if any) i'm losing assuming a blown gasket and coolant slipping into the combustion system.

YungMoola15

I would try the Bars headgasket fix from Amazon. I've heard it actually works, either way your engine is toast so it doesn't hurt your car at all. Worst case it doesn't work, best case it gives you more time to fix the car.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^i wouldnt do that.
you dont throw a band aid on the problem to fix it....
his engine isnt toast! should probably leave the advice to people that better know!!

it sounds like radiator got clogged leading to the overheat condition.
if not keeping coolant, you have a leak some where.
the bottom of the radiator is plastic and is usually the first to deteriorate and leak.

or the coolant wasnt changed and the radiator developed rust clogging it leading it to over heat.

thoiboi

Don't listen to Young Moolah...

nfnsquared

If the engine is running fine and you don't have any evidence of oil contamination and the test was negative, I'd proceed with the theory that a coolant system blockage or leakage led to an overheat. (There's still the chance that the overheat cause head/block warping).

Our radiators have been known to fail. Keep a close watch on fluid level and don't let it get dangerously low, even if it's still leaking. If you continue to lose fluid without milky oil and the engine continues to run fine, then you need to determine where the leak is. I'd say the prime suspect is the radiator, but you could also have a bad hose.

I think most folks recommend the Denso radiator for replacement. IIRC, Rock Auto has very good pricing on Denso radiators.

Also, are you sure the fan is bad? I might be wrong, but I didn't think both fans always ran at the same time. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Limitless

Engine thus far has run fine. Only weird thing was that black sludge on the resevoir which one mechanic said may have been oil?

You are stating if I lose fluid then that means there is a leak. I was told the fluid/coolant may be evaporating because it's becoming too hot or being pulled through the combustion system...in other words, engine failure of some sort leading to coolant loss because the coolant is leaking INTO the combustion system (which i believe is a symptom of blown head gasket). You seem to be indicating if i am losing coolant, its radiator or bad hose. can you clarify on all this?

Update:
Took it to another mechanic, Honda independant guy. didnt bias him at all with head gasket crap. He comes back with $400 estimate for radiator fan, radiator cap, and resevoir tank (mine melted). Said zero about a gasket issue.

Taking it to ANOTHER mechanic tomorrow for his input and will then decide what to do. I just dont want to fix only the radiator fan and then be driving around with a blown head gasket and end up destroying my engine...but interestingly enough there doesnt seem any good way to be 100% certain on if you blew a head gasket. Seems silly.

nfnsquared

1. Negative HC test
2. Oil is not milky
3. No white smoke/vapor coming from exhaust
4. Engine runs fine

It's no guarantee, but I'd say there's no indication of a blown head gasket or coolant leak via the head gasket.

$400 seems a bit high:

Denso radiator: $68
Tank: $5
Cap: $5

Limitless

Thanks.

It's at the next mechanic now being diagnosed...waiting.
I said nothing about head gasket to this guy, he just said himself may have head gasket issue cause engine got so hot. That they need to pressurize the system before testing to see if it's ok or not (prob means at minimum giving me a new reservoir bottle etc for coolant).

You said all indications no blown head gasket, but how about the first two mechanics doing this type of test and it coming back with constant bubbles?

They both said to me constant bubbles = blown head gasket. However:
1) the bubbles are minimal. Not strong or exploding over the funnel thing. Like barely noticeable
2) I read online some bubbles could be NORMAL.

Not sure just wanted to add this. Maybe someone with a regularly functioning car can test this for me...you get any bubbles when you do it?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

the radiator needs to be purged.

if there is air in the system, it will produce bubbles. hence, maybe a leak from a crack letting air in.

nfnsquared

^^^^ yeah, that would be my guess

Limitless

So you're saying I need a new radiator (the denso)?
And until I put one in I won't know about the air in system?

Just curious why the other mechanics didn't say new radiator...they said new radiator cap, new radiator fan, and new reservoir coolant tank.
I attached the breakdown below...check it out. You were saying $400 seemed high but did you realize it was for these items (as you seem to be thinking it was for a new radiator)?

Am I misunderstanding you? Obviously not good with cars

UlsterBoy13

Purged - means getting air out. google - Burping Radiator.

Limitless

Just read about it here: How to Burp your car's cooling system - All

So I guess that's what the mechanic today meant by pressurizing the system first. No idea how he'd do this though without knowing he was working with unbroken parts. And the odds of someone following these directions and doing it properly and actually caring...don't seem high. Guess that's why you have to do all this crap yourself. Very easy for a mechanic just to say "oh bubbles, blown gasket, give me $$."

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

most mechanics are glorified part replacers!
instead of trouble shooting and finding the root cause, they'll band aid the solution and not fix the problem it self.

so, everything mechanical has a cause and effect.
car over heats, well....what caused it to over heat?

a simple test of the radiator is to pull yours out and run water through it with a garden hose.

it should not leak other than where the hoses attach to it. water also should be coming out pretty clear....should be the same color going in as it is going out

nfnsquared

OP, are you still loosing coolant?

Limitless

it's difficult to say, i havent driven it much since i'm a bit scared of damaging the engine if there's a head gasket issue.

I think at minimum I'll need the new fan (obviously a new reservoir too, since mine melted haha) and new radiator cap, so I'll probably get that done. I'll top off the coolant, get an oil change... Maybe drive it around thereafter and see how it works.

Limitless

Update:

I had the other mechanic look at it. He said he pressurized the system and let it run a while, no coolant loss was present he said when he did it. He said the radiator fan that seems to not be working just needed the "relay" to be fixed and supposedly fixed that. I took the car from him after paying $154 (new reservoir tank, 1 hour labor, etc) home yesterday. I drove it maybe 30 miles to see how it would perform. Here's what happened:

1) The gas mileage issue SEEMS (only drove it once so not 100%) to be better. WTF? I hadn't gotten over 22mpg in 6 months...driving it yesterday I got up to 32 mpg, which was normal and the way it used to be. No clue about how this may be fixed if nothing really was done besides new reservoir tank

2) The engine didn't run hot at all, mostly middle and when I idle it goes up every so lightly a bit hotter, but still maybe 6/10ths of the way up on the gauge...basically still in the middle.

3) I did not and do not hear the radiator fan ever kicking on. I would expect it to kick on when the car idles for a while, right? I let it idle a while to see, and nothing. The AC fan (passenger side) works like usual, kicks on when AC is turned on. The radiator fan (driver side) does nothing. The mechanic said it was the relay and said it was fixed, but then why isnt the fan working at all?

4) After driving it I popped the hood and I had bubbling/boiling coolant in the reservoir tank bubbling over through it. I have pictures (one below) if they'd help, but basically normal bubbling over from reservoir tank others have encountered. I definitely am losing coolant that way...and the coolant they topped off seems to be nearly gone now in the reservoir tank after driving it only once about 30-40 miles.

Those are my observations. I've read about pressure in the coolant system etc. What are my next steps to resolve and diagnose the issue? I was reading about burping it etc, I dont know if that could actually fix it though or exactly how to do it.

I guess main things now are is it a LEAK or a blown head gasket, right?

I didnt get a replacement cap for the radiator. A cap from a different car (different mechanic had some spare one laying around) was put on my car. I asked the guy yesterday if this cap was OK as I thought you need the particular cap for pressure reasons, and he said the cap is fine and i dont need a new one. But I was reading the cap itself could be letting air in if its not the right one. Should I go ahead and buy the cap myself? I found this link, is this the right one:2005 ACURA TL 3.2L V6 Radiator Cap | RockAuto

Seems the radiator cap and thermostat sound like 2 main areas to look at when this happens?

Looking for next steps and help guys...thanks. Scared to even drive the car now again.

"The engine always heats up after you shut it off because the coolant stops flowing. Your coolant temp is probably within 5 degrees of boiling when you are running and the shut down kicks it over the boiling point and it comes up the overflow. You need to get the running temp down or the boiling point up. The boiling point is usually a lot easier: stronger coolant mix and/or more system pressure. " - I found this quote on reddit...so basically I need better system pressure with maybe a new radiator cap and a stronger coolant (not sure how thats achieved) ?

PS: This link had some good info:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cartalk/com...fter_truck_is/

nfnsquared

For me (and I think most 3G owners will agree), the temp gauge being at or above halfway would be abnormal. In 13.5 years of driving a 3G, I'm pretty sure I've never seen it even to the halfway mark.

Did the mechanic attach a pressure tester to the radiator? If he didn't, then you really don't know if there is a leak.

What do you know about your coolant composition? When you added coolant, did you add Honda Type 2 undiluted from the bottle?

If your answer to either of the above questions is "no" or "I don't know", I'd suggest that you should drain and fill with Honda type 2 fluid.

Yes, definitely get the correct rad cap.

The rad fan not coming on is problematic. If he replaced the relay, then the fan motor itself could be bad. Did he actually test the old relay? Or did he just guess that since the fan wasn't running, it was the relay?

Once you start the car, run the RPM at 3000 (use a brick or wedge a 2x4 board between the seat and pedal) until the fan comes on. It should come on with 5 minutes. If it doesn't, then you probably have a bad fan motor.

Edit: After going back and reading the dealer estimate, they said the fan is bad. Based on that, I'm guessing your "mechanic" didn't bother to even test the relay, he just replaced it.

Limitless

ok, so the fact temp gauge is halfway means...what?

I guess bottom line is, is it sounding almost definitely like head gasket issue or is it worth trying to do small fixes (radiator fan, radiator cap, honda type 2 fluid, thermostat(?)) or am I throwing $$ at something that nearly clearly has a larger issue?

I dont know if he pressure tested the radiator. he said he pressurized the system and didnt see/find a leak. If there was a leak, wouldnt I see that on the ground somewhere (pardon my stupidity possibly here)?

The coolant looked green in color, so I doubt its Honda type 2 which I believe is blue.

Like I said, I can start throwing money at it and fix the 3 or 4 potential issues above and retest...I just am wondering if its worth it as basically are signs pointing to head gasket or its quite likely some of these other small things could be giving symptoms of a head gasket, but in reality fixing one or all 3 or 4 could resolve.

Thanks

nfnsquared

Could mean nothing, but it's likely just because your radiator fan isn't running.

$5 for a radiator cap?
$32 to add a known coolant?
$57 for a radiator fan assembly?

That's not a lot of money. That's only 2/3 of what you just paid a mechanic who apparently did nothing for you.

FYI, Honda Type 2 fluid used to be green. They switched to blue several years ago. The fact that you have green coolant tells me that either your water pump hasn't yet been changed or someone added some type of coolant other than Honda Type 2). Has your timing belt ever been changed? What about the water pump?

Call your mechanic and ask him:

1. If he put a pressure tester on the radiator.
2. If he tested the old relay.

If he says he tested the old relay, then ask him why the fan isn't running?

Limitless

I'm in much debt to you already nsquared so thank you. You make a good point about the total cost… However, are you suggesting I buy these parts and then bring to him to install? I'm not very good with cars… I probably can figure out the draining of the coolants and Readding, and obviously the radiator cap… But the radiator fan installation I think may be a job for the mechanic. I don't even know if mechanics allow you to bring the parts to them and they install and just charge a labor.

I'll ask him those two questions, but he isn't open until Tuesday. In the meantime I'm just trying to not drive the car really, because isn't there a chance of damaging the engine (more) if there really is a head gasket issue?

You seem to be on team engine OK haha. Haven't said much about head gasket stuff.

As far as timing belt and water pump, I believe both were changed at the 105 thousand mile maintenance. I will verify on the invoice later on today update.

Can you link me to the parts/prices you listed for the radiator cap, fan, and coolant? I want to make sure I get the correct parts specific to my car etc.