Type S turbo build, remote mount
01-06-2015, 12:57 PM
#241
Burning Brakes
Werd.
If you can, let me know what he tunes the AFRs to under WOT boost. Vit was the first one to discover that there was a flaw in Flashpro during the cat warm up phase of the factory tables and how they would cause AFRs to be inconsistent until a set coolant temp was reached. Hondata followed up by adding a disable feature. Wish I knew about this when running into what appeared to be a 15lb threshold....
If you can, let me know what he tunes the AFRs to under WOT boost. Vit was the first one to discover that there was a flaw in Flashpro during the cat warm up phase of the factory tables and how they would cause AFRs to be inconsistent until a set coolant temp was reached. Hondata followed up by adding a disable feature. Wish I knew about this when running into what appeared to be a 15lb threshold....
.It's not a flaw, just a safe guard for OEM equipment
01-07-2015, 02:54 AM
#242
update, ive been etuning with vit since yesterday, just barely started using the high cam profile. things are going good so far. havent gone over 4lb yet but its still oh so satisfying to hear and feel her spool up
01-07-2015, 11:16 AM
#243
You are talking about the cat protection? That was on the Hondata thread? The ECU adjust AFR to run relatively rich to cool down the EGT to cool down the cats so they don't get destroyed.. but since your car doesn't have cat(s) to protect this protection can be disabled .
It's not a flaw, just a safe guard for OEM equipment
.It's not a flaw, just a safe guard for OEM equipment
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6spd-GERCO (01-07-2015)
01-07-2015, 12:31 PM
#244
Burning Brakes
That's good! Thankfully Vit has a lot of pull with Hondata and can get them to help us out. Vit's got more stroke then the average Joe when it comes to Hondata. 
I was just a little miffed that the issue was described as a flaw.
Very exticed to see how this thing progresses through the tune. Do you have any video of the car with everything attached?
I was just a little miffed that the issue was described as a flaw. Very exticed to see how this thing progresses through the tune. Do you have any video of the car with everything attached?
01-07-2015, 12:42 PM
#245
Racer
01-07-2015, 09:56 PM
#246
That's good! Thankfully Vit has a lot of pull with Hondata and can get them to help us out. Vit's got more stroke then the average Joe when it comes to Hondata. I was just a little miffed that the issue was described as a flaw.
Very exticed to see how this thing progresses through the tune. Do you have any video of the car with everything attached?
I was just a little miffed that the issue was described as a flaw. Very exticed to see how this thing progresses through the tune. Do you have any video of the car with everything attached?
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01-07-2015, 10:40 PM
#248
Burning Brakes
Thank you for posting the video, I hope to see more! That's a very nice install, top notch. Quick question, is that your wide band on the front bank manifold or one of the stock ones?
01-08-2015, 04:49 AM
#249
Its a stock one. The wide band is on the down pipe. under that red vavume box..... you can kinda see it in that picture in the video link
01-08-2015, 07:48 PM
#251
my dad just bought a u bend and cut it in the middle-ish flipped one end around so it made a perfect s shape to go over the pipe, then welded around the ends to help keep the couplers on
01-09-2015, 10:52 PM
#253
Advanced
That will very from car to car, sometimes drastically. His settings probably wouldn't help you... you have to tune those settings appropriately for your vehicle.
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UTAH TSX (01-10-2015)
01-09-2015, 10:55 PM
#254
Advanced
Disregard the crap below 3500, that's your AT doing fun things.
A stock TL is usually like 240 on eDyno? A bolt on one is ~270? With a manual...
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UTAH TSX (01-10-2015)
01-09-2015, 11:00 PM
#255
Advanced
Exactly why it should be zeroed out completely. The TL (and TSX I think) have a knock control method that is not made to detect instant knock, but is more of an octane determiner. The knock control tables should be zeroed out and all timing should be set by the timing maps. Without doing that, I think around 8 degrees of timing can be ADDED by the knock control tables. If the car is tuned properly on the fuel that is going to be used, ideally you wouldn't have a range of 8 degrees, since you would tune it to max power without detonation, and maybe back it down a degree or two. An extra 8 degrees on top of that would not be good.
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
Last edited by VitViper; 01-09-2015 at 11:15 PM.
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UTAH TSX (01-10-2015)
01-10-2015, 12:07 AM
#256
Safety Car
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Vits you are the man!!
No modern Honda ECU has active knock logic. Granted you've got the general idea, but KIL being zero'd out doesn't really solve the problem as the KIL tables are actually dynamic in the ECU, what you see in the tables are only a baseline. I've watched the ECU take and drift KIL and up and down on it's own, which can have drastic repercussions to your timing map (and how your motor runs). The ecu logic will never add more timing than in the main ignition tables, however. Something to keep in mind.
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
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UTAH TSX (01-10-2015)
01-10-2015, 04:06 AM
#257
No modern Honda ECU has active knock logic. Granted you've got the general idea, but KIL being zero'd out doesn't really solve the problem as the KIL tables are actually dynamic in the ECU, what you see in the tables are only a baseline. I've watched the ECU take and drift KIL and up and down on it's own, which can have drastic repercussions to your timing map (and how your motor runs). The ecu logic will never add more timing than in the main ignition tables, however. Something to keep in mind.
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
Is that the case with ALL Flashpros, the SI, the TL, or what? I ask because the Flashpro help even says in the knock control info:
The normal ignition tables contain MBT ignition advance values
and
The ignition timing calculation is:
Ignition advance = minimum(MBT Ignition, MBT Ignition + knock ignition limit - (knock retard x knock control))
and
Caution should be exercised when changing the knock ignition limit table - if any negative values are increased (ie made closer to zero or made positive), then the ECU will advance the ignition by that amount.
Those statements are where I get confused. Either it can or cannot run more timing than the main ignition table (which by Hondata's definition is MBT ignition, and tuned on a very high octane fuel).
Since we are in the process of REALLY tuning the engine, and not a general idea for multiple fuels, should you not then zero out the KIL and the tuner tweak the MBT table for the fuel that is to be used. Once complete, you could back it down a couple degrees and then add them back to the KIL table, right?
It also states: Knock ignition limit - use low values where the engine is likely to knock. For forced induction engines on pump fuel we can assume they are tuned to the edge of knock, so columns 9 to 10 and should be 5 degrees or less, and columns in boost should be zero. Note that you should always adjust the main ignition tables if increasing values in the knock ignition limit table.
All those cumulative statements lead me to believe that the observed timing could and most likely at times WILL be higher than the main timing map. Am I on an old version of Flashpro that doesn't have that stuff revised or disabled?
Last edited by screaminz28; 01-10-2015 at 04:16 AM. Reason: added
01-10-2015, 02:44 PM
#258
No modern Honda ECU has active knock logic. Granted you've got the general idea, but KIL being zero'd out doesn't really solve the problem as the KIL tables are actually dynamic in the ECU, what you see in the tables are only a baseline. I've watched the ECU take and drift KIL and up and down on it's own, which can have drastic repercussions to your timing map (and how your motor runs). The ecu logic will never add more timing than in the main ignition tables, however. Something to keep in mind.
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
Top that off with the fact the IAT compensations run against KIL and not your primary ignition tables, you can have a failure on an F/I vehicle very quick moving from cold -> hot extremes. It brings up some very interesting things to think about when working on the new generation of Honda/Acura.
BTW, on the Si platforms, we don't have to deal with this BS. I got Hondata to give us proper control with enough bitching and moaning lol (the fact it's the highest selling FP helps).
01-12-2015, 06:22 AM
#259
The afr target has been 11.3 ish to 12 under boost this pull was 3rd gear from 2000-3500 rpm
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sbuoy (04-21-2016)
01-12-2015, 09:28 AM
#260
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bxo1ueg3P3M
heres the last pull I did. The roads have been too wet to do them for now
The afr target has been 11.3 ish to 12 under boost this pull was 3rd gear from 2000-3500 rpm
heres the last pull I did. The roads have been too wet to do them for now
The afr target has been 11.3 ish to 12 under boost this pull was 3rd gear from 2000-3500 rpm
01-12-2015, 12:49 PM
#262
01-12-2015, 01:13 PM
#263
Actually 2.5 LBS. it tapers off because the wastegate is set as low as we can go on boost, whats cool is we are makeing over 350 WHP at 6000 RPM with 2 LBS. wait till we turn it up
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01-12-2015, 07:35 PM
#265
Great job! I'm fairly new to the forum but I've been following this built for a bit now, I'm planning on doing something similar in the near future with my 07 type S auto. Thanks for all the info you guys are providing. If you don't mind sharing other than the what mods does the car has? Are you running oem imternals?
01-12-2015, 08:18 PM
#268
I heard you Kn_tl btw I'm also following your rebuild, pretty impressive internals you got there, what CR you end up using for your pistons? And what WHP are you aiming for?
01-12-2015, 08:46 PM
#269
I went WAY overboard.....As long as I get someone to tune this correctly, I've got internals that shouldn't have issue with the motor, Tilton twin disc clutch and straight cut 3rd and 4th gears.
01-12-2015, 10:33 PM
#270
I was looking for the 9's in CR and who knows with power. I'm going to actually measure the combustion chamber and bore to see exactly what the CR is.
I went WAY overboard.....As long as I get someone to tune this correctly, I've got internals that shouldn't have issue with the motor, Tilton twin disc clutch and straight cut 3rd and 4th gears.
I went WAY overboard.....As long as I get someone to tune this correctly, I've got internals that shouldn't have issue with the motor, Tilton twin disc clutch and straight cut 3rd and 4th gears.
01-13-2015, 06:02 AM
#271
I know is easier said that done but the way I see it you just went the safest route, I'm planing on going the same way even if it takes a bit longer but just for my peace of mind. I think that if you can get the right tune for that beast you are up for legendary numbers.
Not sure if I want to go back and calculate all that I spent on this whole adventure.....
01-13-2015, 11:21 AM
#273
I feel for you KN, all of these piston failures has us on edge, I think we will start saving up for some pistons, rods, valves and springs
01-13-2015, 01:19 PM
#274
No welding classes or welder yet. That's after I get moved and the engine build completed.
If you're interested in a set of forged lower compression pistons really cheap, let me know. I probably won't ever use them. Specs are in the other remote turbo thread.
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UTAH Type-S (01-13-2015)
01-15-2015, 09:07 AM
#278
Advanced
Hey Vit, thanks for chiming in. I'm not disagreeing, but trying to better understand. You say that the "ecu logic will never add more timing than the main ignition tables."
Is that the case with ALL Flashpros, the SI, the TL, or what? I ask because the Flashpro help even says in the knock control info:
Is that the case with ALL Flashpros, the SI, the TL, or what? I ask because the Flashpro help even says in the knock control info:
and
Caution should be exercised when changing the knock ignition limit table - if any negative values are increased (ie made closer to zero or made positive), then the ECU will advance the ignition by that amount.
Those statements are where I get confused. Either it can or cannot run more timing than the main ignition table (which by Hondata's definition is MBT ignition, and tuned on a very high octane fuel).
Caution should be exercised when changing the knock ignition limit table - if any negative values are increased (ie made closer to zero or made positive), then the ECU will advance the ignition by that amount.
Those statements are where I get confused. Either it can or cannot run more timing than the main ignition table (which by Hondata's definition is MBT ignition, and tuned on a very high octane fuel).
Since we are in the process of REALLY tuning the engine, and not a general idea for multiple fuels, should you not then zero out the KIL and the tuner tweak the MBT table for the fuel that is to be used. Once complete, you could back it down a couple degrees and then add them back to the KIL table, right?
It also states: Knock ignition limit - use low values where the engine is likely to knock. For forced induction engines on pump fuel we can assume they are tuned to the edge of knock, so columns 9 to 10 and should be 5 degrees or less, and columns in boost should be zero. Note that you should always adjust the main ignition tables if increasing values in the knock ignition limit table.
I really don't want to go too deep into this discussion publicly as almost no one in the industry understands the logic, and I'm not keen on helping them understand it.
Observed timing will never be greater than the MBT tables. The formula above simply does not allow it -- nor should it. Good way to observe this is to watch your ignition timing on a stock map at part throttle/low load (say below 40kpa).
Not sure how well the system would get along with the OEM ECU... typically piggyback type control items like to battle the ECU for control (ecu asks for one thing, doesn't get it, goes huh?).
