Tony_the_Tiger

Recently I've finished up a pretty interesting build for a customer with some good results...

I made this same post on another forum (HT.com), but I figured I would share it here too because actual TL owners can relate to the build as well. The post is very technical, as I was trying to explain how I made this high compression setup work.

The car is a 2004 Acura TL, and the car has been first turbocharged back in early 2011 with the stock motor and a GT35R setup. The post is in chronological order.

The quest for more power lead to more boost, bigger FMIC, fuel system, etc... Due to the FlashPro being unavailable a few years ago, the car had an AEM EMS V1 custom wired in along with a manual throttlebody conversion. Shortly after, the ignition system was not keeping up due to wasted spark on the V1 box, so it was upgraded to a Haltech P2000 for full sequential ignition. It is running on S2000 coil packs as well.
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Video:

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To keep the post short, the stock 3.2 motor end up holding up to 442 HP / 392 TQ. Unfortunately, due to stock valve train, the motor quickly dropped a valve and the stock motor was destroyed.

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Time for a built motor...

The goal of the new motor build was to somehow give this car a very responsive feeling down at really low RPM's. The car sees downtown traffic most of the week and only gets to be raced on the weekends, and the idea was to have a very snappy low-end right off idle for a big motor feeling. Even with a GT35R and 0.63 housing at the early stages of the setup, the owner did not like the fact he had to wait for power although it builds 5 PSI at 2500RPM on tap. Sometimes turbo power is not the same as a brisk NA power right off the start. He just wants the car to rip off the line from a roll like a highly tuned N/A car, such as the GT3RS/tuned G37/370Z, etc.. for the low speed off the line stuff.

For the build, it has a 3.5L bottom-end with high compression setup using Wiseco pistons with HD pins, 5cc dome and with the J32 head. The static compression ratio is 12.5:1 CR. The piston is labelled for a K24 with part number visible on the piston even though it was technically a custom piston offered by Wiseco.



Still using the GT35R, the turbo is now running out of efficiency range with the engine pulling in about 60 lbs/min worth of air and running the compressor at the edge of the map. If I chased the flow line on the compressor map, it is off the charts most of the time during spool up. So I've built a custom dual pass FMIC just for this occasion, and it helped bumped up the pressure ratios and the car held boost much better; although the turbo still has trouble maintaining boost and has very odd spool up characteristics.
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Here's a dyno video run of the GT35R maxed out:


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Now onto the present...

Just recently, I have upgraded the turbo to an HKS T51R... The HKS compact design made it possible for me to fit a large frame turbo in the tight engine bay. I was very familiar with HKS turbos and have used them on many other platforms, and this was a turbo I wanted to use for a high compression 94 oct setup.

Here are some pics:





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Lastly, a video with the final setup:


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Final notes...

I expected the high compression ratio to be one of the biggest obstacles for high power on 94 oct, but turns out that as long as the exhaust pressures are kept in check, the engine still takes whatever you throw at it. It's not the first time I have done something similar, if you follow my F22C builds, along with my older higher CR setups back in the day.

The unique design of the exhaust ports on the J32A3 made it a header-less design. For the pre-turbo pipes, I made it for extra volume in mind. The pipes are 3" starting at the ports on both banks, then both necks down to 1.625" and merges into a collector, then flares back out to 3" at the turbo, similar to a mini expansion chamber. It has kept exhaust pressure low right at the exhaust ports even though it was running 18+ PSI of boost. I have managed to cheat an exhaust pressure differential between the exhaust port and the turbine housing inlet (I have pressure ports at both locations) by about half even after consecutive hot runs.

Due to this high of a compression, I did go conservative with the tune but it has still brought me good numbers. On 94 oct and 6% of 50/50 water/meth based on ID750cc injectors at 95% IDC, the peak water/meth flow was 270cc/min. It doesn't impact the tune and is used as a transparent safety buffer against bad gas the pumps on a daily basis. The car was first tuned without the water/meth system on, and then was activated with almost no change in power and a slight lower AFR and no adjustments on fuel or timing.


Power numbers on 94 oct:



Power numbers on unleaded 114oct (local race fuel):



Here's a wallpaper I made for my website, thought I'd share it =)




Full setup list:

J32A3 Engine (Fully stock ports)
J35A8 OEM Crank
Wiseco Pistons with HD Pins, 12.5:1 CR
Pauter Rods
ARP Main Studs and Head Studs
Supertech Springs/Retainers/Valves
OEM MLS Headgasket
Custom Pre-Turbo Pipes
HKS T51R KAI BB 1.00 A/R V-Band
3.5" DP / Small section of 3.0" MP
Dual 2.25" Rear Sections
ID750's / Walbro 255LPH / Bosch 044 Inline
-6AN Line from Bosch 044 to rails
AEM Universal FPR
Stock Fuel Rails
Manual Throttle Body Conversion (from a pre-03 TL)
Haltech Platinum Sport 2000
S2000 Coil Packs (connectors are P&P)
AEM Water/Meth
Custom ClutchMasters Twin Disc Clutch
OEM 6-spd Transmission w/ OEM LSD
Custom Hasport Mounts
Full Rotora BBK 6-pot Front and 4-pot Rears




Hope you guys enjoyed the post

Nick216

I want one.

myron

iTrader: (4)

Damn

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

Noticed you've got a cabled throttle body and no CEL on the cluster, how'd you manage that one?

Does the stock ECM still have an input for the throttle position?

Any issues with the brakes or VSA with the cabled setup?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

looks pretty smooth and streetable.

did you end up obtaining the goal of having that muscle down low?
Is the customer happy with the results?


she screams and sounds great at it!!

Damin1123

Mother of I want one

story.customz

That is amazing

callahan

Damn...

Nick216

Performance aside, them lights are bright as fuk.

EvilVirus

iTrader: (8)

OP awesome job

Turbocoop

iTrader: (3)

If I hit the mega millions tonight Im buying one.... fuck it, two

Slpr04UA6

Very Nice!

Keep us updated (if possible) how the transmission/axles handle all that power.


Looks like member "213Swampy's" old wheels.

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

Amazing build!

Any upgrades to the clutch, transmission, or axles?

Do you intend to use Flashpro?

Ballpark budget number ($)?

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

The haltech p2000 is like a $2k ECM setup, I doubt he'll go over to flashpro since they've got the haltech going and tuned on it.

I'm still curious if he's running it as a piggyback or as a standalone ECM though.

I'd guess its setup as a standalone since he has a cabled throttle body and they probably wired the cluster to the CAN bus on the haltech somehow

Curious how they've got it setup actually, if the stock ECM was completely replaced or the haltech is used as a piggyback.

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Wow!

flexer

Wait, The Tony the Tiger has come here. What a crazy coincidence. We just mentioned you in a debate in another twin turbo thread. Would you mind telling us about your camery that your turbo'd. I know you had a single Kai51r on it and had twins. Which set-up had more mid-range torque?

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Funny, I thought it was Rodney in disguise.
Incredible numbers...it's gotta be hard to keep those front tires stuck. HAS to be.

flexer

Also Tony,

Would you post a pic of your "expansion header-less turbo pipe"?

Also how is the turbo housing "clocked" on your set-up. Most have it so that the exhaust enters from the motor side parallel to the ground, but your looks like it comes up from ground and into the turbo from the bottom?

J. R.

flexer

Okay,

Found the answer to my above post on ht, but maybe post it here so people can see.

New question:

Did you wire the ecu to work in conjunction with the stock ECU or is it wired as a full standalone?

Ride It Low

I guess its time to start selling all the parts i got laying around.
and saving all my pennies!! and then 10 years from now i will be golden..

AccordFlex

iTrader: (1)

THIS IS SICK. This car is the reason I purchased my turbo setup. I cannot wait to install this.

Joneill44

Powahhh

bouncer07

Music to me ears, that turbo!!!

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Very nice.

Since you used a J32A3 block then the 6MT has to be from a 04-06TL?

You list that it's also OEM. I'd be interested in how long it lasts with that much power and if you've given any thought on how to make it stronger?

It's also AMAZING how little engine movement there is!

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

If only I had a turbo on my motor. Man....

cueleezy

Awesome build.. Are there any more plans on the horizon?

Tony_the_Tiger

The Haltech was wired in parallel with the stock ECU, so the stock ECU is still there for all the other functions. The VSA does not work anymore, although at one point in the earlier stages, I did manage to get working by feeding the stock ECU with a part throttle signal constantly on both TPS and motor position. I also had to keep the motor plugged in as a dummy and place it in the corner, and eventually, we removed it to keep the engine bay tidy as VSA was no longer wanted.

It was very similar to putting a standalone in any of the newer cars, like a Lexus IS300 or other variants which has DBW from the factory.

Tony_the_Tiger

The customer was already very happy with the car after the motor build with the older GT3582R... He had a few runs ins with some nicer cars, and had no problem staying with a C63 AMG right from a rolling/idle start, and then passing it easily by 3rd gear. His tire setup isn't the best either, so 1st gear scoots off nicely, but 2nd gear comes in hard and it spins a lot.

The only concern was the old GT35R turbo was constantly operating on choke line, so the boost varies a lot due to weather changes. So sometimes it hits boost cut, and sometimes it under boosts by quite a bit. It's all good now of course with a good turbo on there now


Full mod list is already posted up on my first post... No, FlashPro will become a downgrade when it comes to engine control. It's stock axles and transmission, with a CM Twin Disc

Ballpark budget of this build, if he was to build his current setup in one shot would be $25k mark. He had this build in stages, so he enjoyed each upgrade so it costs more in the long run.

Due to being one of the first turbocharged TL's doing street/daily duty, more attention was paid to good long lasting parts and electronics. The setup will be cheaper to build now if it was using FlashPro, a typical low compression setup and less of the fun features like the load-style ALS system and show-quality engine bay.


Piggyback isn't really the correct term, because it is not modifying the signals. It is fully intercepted, so fuel and ignition is full control. The term is running the EMS in parallel with the stock ECM (see my reply for mzilvar for more details on the setup)


Unfortunately, his stock transmission already failed once on him, so it is approaching breaking point. The torque was kept in check on this build to reduce the stress, and he has learned to drive the car better as well. He used to let the car wheel hop all the time and it failed before he had full power (2nd gear shredded).

Tony_the_Tiger

A little OT, but anyway, I had lots of turbo setups in the Camry over the years.. Imagine I had the car since brand new, and it was first turbocharged back in 2002...LOL It had, in chrono order, a CT26 /57-trim CT26 / T04E-T4 / Turbonetics T66 / GT4088R / Twin GT2860R's / T51R KAI BB / Twincharged TRD SC + T51R KAI BB / T51R SPL BB / GTX4202R now.

The twin turbo had a stronger midrange and faster spool, but it was never meant to be a direct comparison with the T51R KAI. The T51R is an 81 lbs/min flow rating, but my old twin GT28's were in the 70 lbs/min, so the twins combined were still smaller by one class.

Due to the characteristics of my Camry engine, it did not flow well at low boost, so the twin turbo setup was maxed out very shortly. It was maxed out by pressure, not flow. Two small compressor combined can only achieve double flow, but same pressure when ran in parallel, and the small GT28's were only able to boost 20 PSI (net power of 420-440 WHP at the time) and had already maxed out.

Twins are great when the engine can flow lots of HP at low boost; then you can reap the benefits of faster spool quicker transient response and more turbine flow. This J32/J35 build would have been a great candidate for twin turbo setup, but space constraints won't allow it, and the header-less design will be a disaster if the turbo was placed near the cylinder head like a traditional TT setup.

DynamicJ32

Great work Tony!

Never met you but I've seen this TL and your Supra before, good stuff!

NBP-UA6

iTrader: (1)

Too bad you're in Canada or else....

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, that's essentially what I was inferring, didn't know they had EMS systems that would re-shape or modify what the stock ECM is generating for things like the injector pulses and such.

Did you end up sharing things like the IAT, MAP, crank and cam sensors with the haltech and stock ECM? I'd think those have to be shared or it'd throw a code, unless you install separate IAT & MAP sensors for the haltech.

I know usually the outputs can be cut so the injectors and spark timing can be controlled by the haltech and stock ECM no longer has any control.

I always wondered how it would respond like that, since the stock ECM may try to pull the AFR one way and then not be able to since the haltech or aftermarket EMS has full control of it, so I'd think it'd try to adjust AFR and then not be able to and see no change on it's inputs and maybe throw a code?

I'd guess your wideband is probably wired into the haltech for managing the AFR, do you have one permanently installed that way? I'm looking at doing something similar with a MS3X I picked up, using the Innovate LC-2 wideband and having a gauge in the car and wiring the second analog output to the MS3X itself to control the AFR.

So then the stock ECM is pretty much handling the starting circuits, immobilizer, F-CAN bits and maintains your DLC for OBD-II codes and such.

This is still something I'm picking up on since I've never put an aftermarket EMS on a car, I've picked up an MS3X from another member with a harness though and was going to check out how its setup when I receive it, I work on electronics for my job so not that difficult for me to understand the way these things are setup electrically.

lil12002

what did you do to your F22?

camrtm3

Oh man. See I signed up here cause I was looking for answers to how in the world did a honda shop mess up installing my flywheel and or starter. Click on this link, look at the video and see DMT.... and see that it's Tony.

I see some members are thinking Canada is too far away. I have known about Tony since 2008. His work is amazing. I live in MD and when I finish my Camry build which has the largest Cams ever made for the Camry v6 I will be taking it up to Tony. Tony has this gift when it comes to tuning engines.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

The implementation is the same as the MS3 that most everyone here has done except for the DBW conversion. You can choose to connect the analog output of the WB to the MS3 and then choose to either use it's readings or stick with fixed maps. Rodney actually suggested against using it's reading because of chances of failure. For the most of us without a dyno on hand, you can foul up the sensor pretty badly but the Innovate WB have free air cal so that could be used to insure it's ok.

Once you get into bugging out the harness, you'll see what was intercepted (cut) and what was tapped (going to both ECU's).

The P2000 is a highly refined version of the MS3 and if you were to eliminate the DBW and add a IACV (Tony doesn't mention how idle is controlled), you could have a 'similar' setup.

Any ideas on improving this?

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

I'd like to actually keep the VSA functional, interesting to see it can be done with a cabled setup by leaving the DBW bits plugged in and tucked away, while removing any control they have.

Curious if OP is still using the stock APP sensor for the haltech with the cabled setup or have switched to something else?

I'm also pretty sure I'll have to add a few wires to the harness with the MS3X, since it has the MT harness and I have an AT depending if Rodney added the wires for sport shift and the AT cluster input on the 'A' connector. I'll sort through that though.

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

Sorry for double post lol .. any reason you went with the J35A8 crank over the J37A1 crank to get it to 3.6L over 3.5L ?

Obviously not missing any power though lol .. just curious if why stroking the J32 out to 3.5L instead of going to 3.6L, I suppose the pistons, compression and clearance may have been a concern?

bouncer07

Hondata boost by gear would help save transmission.
Some gears cryo-treated would benefit.

Tony_the_Tiger

The Haltech controls boost in any method (boost by gear, boost by VSS, boost by engine RPM, boost target by time, and plus closed loop control on target boost).

Boost by gear just limits torque at lower gears, so it just means you are going slower if the car doesn't hook. If the car hooks, the gears would still break if I can feed the car with full boost.

Now only time will tell, if the transmission actually broke due to power, or due to wheel hop.

Tunable traction control will help with the wheel hop depending on how I set it up, so it may be one of the upgrades later down the road.

TLOHTL

Nice job Tony !

This is how we build them in Canada eh !