J35 12:1 heads/cam build, complete
10-08-2013, 10:06 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
J35 12:1 heads/cam build, complete
Finally getting around to posting something here. Been busy.
Over most of the summer I was working with King Motorsports Unlimited on building the top end of my J35a8. The car is finally done and back on the road, runs perfectly, and has cost me one F'ing pretty penny.
High Level Overview:
The goal - port j35a8 heads, mill them for 12:1 compression, and run a Stage 3 cam regrind
The budget - $10k, the actual final cost: $13,378 (includes $1500 to replace the head I blew out prior to starting the project, and the 105k maintenance) - technically you could call it $16,578 if you include the $3200 i spent on Gerz's heads
Build sheet:
Additional engine mods list for reference:
atlp v2 catback
rv6 v3 pcd
rv6 v3 jpipe
custom intake
3.7 mani/tb
Bisimoto valve springs/retainers
Storytime and charts:
This all started back in January 2013, when I talked with Gerzand about doing a build and he suggested I buy his decked/ported J32a3 heads, valves, and intake runners. The idea being I would mimic his build and ditch my j35 heads, aside from the cam profile. I agreed with the caveat that the heads were still in his car and I would need to wait until late May/early June to receive them. I agreed to that as well, fronted him $3200, and eventually May came and I received my heads. Joy of joys. I planned on getting to work shortly after that but was moving at the time.
Well wouldn't you know it, on June 14th, I was taking a trip to Chicago and blew the spark plug out of one of my stock j35 heads. This was the start of the actual build and was both a blessing and a curse.
I took the car to King, along with the new j32a3 heads that I got from Gerzand, and put them to work. I had them flow the j32 heads, and CC them - Gerzand's shop told him they made 13.5 compression with 60 thou milled off. Well it was pretty disappointing to say the least as his shop had only actually milled 20 thou, and the heads were only making 11.5:1 - the porting on them was good as it matched a Type-S head, at least.
So the decision was made to scrap Gerzand's heads, call the $3200 an exploratory loss along with whatever money I spent on flowbenching and CC'ing everything, and to then invest in my J35 heads. King used my blown head for testing purposes and ported out the easy stuff on a cylinder and flowed it. The cfm gains were solid as expected, so I dropped 1500 bucks on a brand new j35 cylinder head to replace the one I blew out, and decided to pursue the route of porting J35 heads and milling them for more realistic compression - the target was 12:1
Things turned out nicely when the heads were done being ported - here is the flow chart from that:
Milling the heads was on hold until we got some cam regrinds in our hands. This is where the project started to go awry and added another month to the timeline. Bypassing Bisimoto and going straight to the source of the regrinds, Webcams, we dicked around with some specs and settled on a Stage 3 for a TL they had done in the past. When the cams came back, they were degree'd and it was found that the valve timing was way off between front and rear cams. Centerline was perfect on the front, but the rear was off. Webcams comp'd us another set of cams, reground again with the same results.
The following are charts produced from measuring the lift every 10 degrees on a full rotation of the crank, for both cams. You can clearly see where the timing is off:
The problem here was that it was determined there is some goofy lobe separation from the factory TL cams, so when you regrind - the bigger you go on the cam, the more pronounced the separation. You'd probably never notice until you were on a dyno. The car would still fire up and idle ok, although we found a bug in Flashpro's live-tuning tables that caused the car to go on the fritz that at first we attributed to the cams.
There's a bit more to it but the process of measuring everything and proving out that Webcams' regrinds were causing valve timing issues, degree'ing stock cams and a couple sets of regrinds, blah blah blah ended up costing roughly $4k just in labor. I probably chewed through $6k on the cams alone which was absurd.
The conclusion is that you can regrind the TL cams and it will run, however, with a big enough regrind, you will lose a shitload of power down low and have some odd behavior above 6400 rpm. With the regrind by itself, I lost 40 wtq at 2k and by 3k it was leveling out. Up top, there was a solid digger from the cam position and valve timing being fucked.
The solution here was to make some custom cuts on the cam gears themselves, to physically reposition the cams. This fixed the valve timing so it was only off by a couple degrees which is not a big deal, and resolved ALL of my power loss issues. With the cam gears in place, I was able to retain all of my low end torque from when I had stock cams. The dyno chart line is almost identical as you will see.
So anyways, in the midst of this the heads were being milled, and we hit a limit of 40 thou on j35a8 heads because the center cylinders were at their piston-to-valve clearance limit by that point. It was still enough to make 12:1 compression exactly, which I was happy with.
These are some other interesting notes that show in the bottom right the CC results for the compression on my stock J35 heads, Gerzand's j32a3 heads, and finally my decked j35 heads:
There were so many nights at the shop and phone calls over the course of the summer that I can't remember it all now - it's just a blur.
The final result is a very well-built, well-tuned J35 motor - make no mistake, the car sounds wicked and runs strong for what it is. Is it worth the money? Not that much - I think if there wasn't as much R&D needed, a project like this would cost half as much. As it stands, I was forced to sink a LOT more cash into it than I really wanted to. I actually got so fed up with everything that I whimsically went out and bought my BMW 135 (which I had honestly wanted to pick up for years anyway).
That said, King was meticulous and everything was done right. I was able to be there for a lot of what was going on, and interact with them on a regular basis, which was a very good experience in engine building. You pay a premium, but the end result will be a properly running engine. People definitely need to understand that engine building is a precision process, not a slap-it-together and hope it works type of thing.
My advice to anyone looking to get fully built NA power on the TL would be this: Stop. Go the other direction. Just go with boost instead. I'm about 75 whp over stock with everything I have done. You aren't going to see more gains over stock than me on NA unless you get lucky with a miracle cam. At this point the only thing I'm missing is a 3" dump in the exhaust. Anybody can run dyno charts that pump higher numbers, but at the end of the day it's about the gains from stock to now. How much MORE power are you making over stock? It's very important to keep that perspective if you are considering going full NA. There's a SHITLOAD of hearsay on the forums and people spouting off about 350-375 whp with absolutely nothing to back it up and no context to what baseline whp was. Don't get caught up in that bullshit.
With a perfect cam, I believe you could get another 15-20 whp - but still you will basically hit a ceiling even in that scenario around +100 whp over stock.
I'm beating a dead horse here a bit but please, I'm trying to legitimately warn you if you are interested in building an NA TL, keep your expectations realistic. If not, you will be sorely disappointed.
Future plans for the car are most likely to continue weight reduction hopefully south of 3200 pounds, replace the clutch master cylinder and ETD, and keep the mileage off as best I can. It's not a DD anymore and my 135i has taken that role for summer, and I will most likely pick up a 335xi for the Wisconsin winters.
Final dyno chart:
Over most of the summer I was working with King Motorsports Unlimited on building the top end of my J35a8. The car is finally done and back on the road, runs perfectly, and has cost me one F'ing pretty penny.
High Level Overview:
The goal - port j35a8 heads, mill them for 12:1 compression, and run a Stage 3 cam regrind
The budget - $10k, the actual final cost: $13,378 (includes $1500 to replace the head I blew out prior to starting the project, and the 105k maintenance) - technically you could call it $16,578 if you include the $3200 i spent on Gerz's heads
Build sheet:
Additional engine mods list for reference:
atlp v2 catback
rv6 v3 pcd
rv6 v3 jpipe
custom intake
3.7 mani/tb
Bisimoto valve springs/retainers
Storytime and charts:
This all started back in January 2013, when I talked with Gerzand about doing a build and he suggested I buy his decked/ported J32a3 heads, valves, and intake runners. The idea being I would mimic his build and ditch my j35 heads, aside from the cam profile. I agreed with the caveat that the heads were still in his car and I would need to wait until late May/early June to receive them. I agreed to that as well, fronted him $3200, and eventually May came and I received my heads. Joy of joys. I planned on getting to work shortly after that but was moving at the time.
Well wouldn't you know it, on June 14th, I was taking a trip to Chicago and blew the spark plug out of one of my stock j35 heads. This was the start of the actual build and was both a blessing and a curse.
I took the car to King, along with the new j32a3 heads that I got from Gerzand, and put them to work. I had them flow the j32 heads, and CC them - Gerzand's shop told him they made 13.5 compression with 60 thou milled off. Well it was pretty disappointing to say the least as his shop had only actually milled 20 thou, and the heads were only making 11.5:1 - the porting on them was good as it matched a Type-S head, at least.
So the decision was made to scrap Gerzand's heads, call the $3200 an exploratory loss along with whatever money I spent on flowbenching and CC'ing everything, and to then invest in my J35 heads. King used my blown head for testing purposes and ported out the easy stuff on a cylinder and flowed it. The cfm gains were solid as expected, so I dropped 1500 bucks on a brand new j35 cylinder head to replace the one I blew out, and decided to pursue the route of porting J35 heads and milling them for more realistic compression - the target was 12:1
Things turned out nicely when the heads were done being ported - here is the flow chart from that:
Milling the heads was on hold until we got some cam regrinds in our hands. This is where the project started to go awry and added another month to the timeline. Bypassing Bisimoto and going straight to the source of the regrinds, Webcams, we dicked around with some specs and settled on a Stage 3 for a TL they had done in the past. When the cams came back, they were degree'd and it was found that the valve timing was way off between front and rear cams. Centerline was perfect on the front, but the rear was off. Webcams comp'd us another set of cams, reground again with the same results.
The following are charts produced from measuring the lift every 10 degrees on a full rotation of the crank, for both cams. You can clearly see where the timing is off:
The problem here was that it was determined there is some goofy lobe separation from the factory TL cams, so when you regrind - the bigger you go on the cam, the more pronounced the separation. You'd probably never notice until you were on a dyno. The car would still fire up and idle ok, although we found a bug in Flashpro's live-tuning tables that caused the car to go on the fritz that at first we attributed to the cams.
There's a bit more to it but the process of measuring everything and proving out that Webcams' regrinds were causing valve timing issues, degree'ing stock cams and a couple sets of regrinds, blah blah blah ended up costing roughly $4k just in labor. I probably chewed through $6k on the cams alone which was absurd.
The conclusion is that you can regrind the TL cams and it will run, however, with a big enough regrind, you will lose a shitload of power down low and have some odd behavior above 6400 rpm. With the regrind by itself, I lost 40 wtq at 2k and by 3k it was leveling out. Up top, there was a solid digger from the cam position and valve timing being fucked.
The solution here was to make some custom cuts on the cam gears themselves, to physically reposition the cams. This fixed the valve timing so it was only off by a couple degrees which is not a big deal, and resolved ALL of my power loss issues. With the cam gears in place, I was able to retain all of my low end torque from when I had stock cams. The dyno chart line is almost identical as you will see.
So anyways, in the midst of this the heads were being milled, and we hit a limit of 40 thou on j35a8 heads because the center cylinders were at their piston-to-valve clearance limit by that point. It was still enough to make 12:1 compression exactly, which I was happy with.
These are some other interesting notes that show in the bottom right the CC results for the compression on my stock J35 heads, Gerzand's j32a3 heads, and finally my decked j35 heads:
There were so many nights at the shop and phone calls over the course of the summer that I can't remember it all now - it's just a blur.
The final result is a very well-built, well-tuned J35 motor - make no mistake, the car sounds wicked and runs strong for what it is. Is it worth the money? Not that much - I think if there wasn't as much R&D needed, a project like this would cost half as much. As it stands, I was forced to sink a LOT more cash into it than I really wanted to. I actually got so fed up with everything that I whimsically went out and bought my BMW 135 (which I had honestly wanted to pick up for years anyway).
That said, King was meticulous and everything was done right. I was able to be there for a lot of what was going on, and interact with them on a regular basis, which was a very good experience in engine building. You pay a premium, but the end result will be a properly running engine. People definitely need to understand that engine building is a precision process, not a slap-it-together and hope it works type of thing.
My advice to anyone looking to get fully built NA power on the TL would be this: Stop. Go the other direction. Just go with boost instead. I'm about 75 whp over stock with everything I have done. You aren't going to see more gains over stock than me on NA unless you get lucky with a miracle cam. At this point the only thing I'm missing is a 3" dump in the exhaust. Anybody can run dyno charts that pump higher numbers, but at the end of the day it's about the gains from stock to now. How much MORE power are you making over stock? It's very important to keep that perspective if you are considering going full NA. There's a SHITLOAD of hearsay on the forums and people spouting off about 350-375 whp with absolutely nothing to back it up and no context to what baseline whp was. Don't get caught up in that bullshit.
With a perfect cam, I believe you could get another 15-20 whp - but still you will basically hit a ceiling even in that scenario around +100 whp over stock.
I'm beating a dead horse here a bit but please, I'm trying to legitimately warn you if you are interested in building an NA TL, keep your expectations realistic. If not, you will be sorely disappointed.
Future plans for the car are most likely to continue weight reduction hopefully south of 3200 pounds, replace the clutch master cylinder and ETD, and keep the mileage off as best I can. It's not a DD anymore and my 135i has taken that role for summer, and I will most likely pick up a 335xi for the Wisconsin winters.
Final dyno chart:
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Atlas.46 (10-09-2013)
10-09-2013, 12:10 AM
#3
yes!!!!!
10-09-2013, 07:44 AM
#5
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
Good write up man!
10-09-2013, 09:11 AM
#6
All motor
Great writeup, man! Ugh.....such a headache, I know. I know you are glad it's all over though. So how much did you actually gain with the ported heads/cams/tuning? I forget what numbers you were putting down beforehand.
Have you ever thought of trying to run/tune for E85? I could see you potentially picking up another 10whp...
Have you ever thought of trying to run/tune for E85? I could see you potentially picking up another 10whp...
10-09-2013, 09:39 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Great writeup, man! Ugh.....such a headache, I know. I know you are glad it's all over though. So how much did you actually gain with the ported heads/cams/tuning? I forget what numbers you were putting down beforehand.
Have you ever thought of trying to run/tune for E85? I could see you potentially picking up another 10whp...
Have you ever thought of trying to run/tune for E85? I could see you potentially picking up another 10whp...
So, peak gains? Somewhere between 25-30 whp
While I would have liked to see +40 peak gains out of this project, I don't see any reason to pursue it further at this point. I'm pretty happy with how the car drives right now, not looking to get any more power out of it so I doubt I'll look at E85.
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10-09-2013, 09:43 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention my thanks to the forum members here who have been helpful and insightful throughout the process, as well as leading up to it - when I first started researching it a year ago I was familiarizing myself with Gerzand's threads and some of IHC's and Opel's responses on the topic of going with an NA build. Andy was very helpful along the way.
Other guys like yungone, Sonnick, and swoosh for providing continued discussion and making me think throughout the process.
We have a kickass performance community here on Acurazine 3G that makes most of the BMW forums I'm on look as useless as a poopie-flavored lollipop.
Other guys like yungone, Sonnick, and swoosh for providing continued discussion and making me think throughout the process.
We have a kickass performance community here on Acurazine 3G that makes most of the BMW forums I'm on look as useless as a poopie-flavored lollipop.
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Sonnick (10-09-2013)
10-09-2013, 10:07 AM
#10
All motor
Glad you like where it's at, homie. Also glad I could be of some assistance (even if that meant just talking it out), you're a cool dude. I wish I could spend that much on my build (ugh).
And oops, I'm at work so I couldn't see the graphs, my bad. Just for the record, I want to say that King's dyno reads a tad bit low, considering a 3.0 Accord 6MT with 3.5" CAI/RV6 V3 Jpipe/OBX Catback made 228/200, and a Base TL 6MT w/RV6 true duals put down 230. That was the same day the ILC put down 292, according to Dandaman over at Vsixpee. That's an extra 60+whp/50wtq, which is a ton. So that '320' is SOLID.
And oops, I'm at work so I couldn't see the graphs, my bad. Just for the record, I want to say that King's dyno reads a tad bit low, considering a 3.0 Accord 6MT with 3.5" CAI/RV6 V3 Jpipe/OBX Catback made 228/200, and a Base TL 6MT w/RV6 true duals put down 230. That was the same day the ILC put down 292, according to Dandaman over at Vsixpee. That's an extra 60+whp/50wtq, which is a ton. So that '320' is SOLID.
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dandaman15 (10-09-2013)
10-09-2013, 10:28 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
. I bought my wife's Pilot for $34k and that's by far my most expensive car. I paid 20k for the TL, 20k for the 135, and I expect 25k for the 335. Not saying it's a small sum of money but it's not like I'm buying 50-60k brand new BMW's, lol. Not wealthy by any means - I like the 20k price arena when it comes to cars. Glad you like where it's at, homie. Also glad I could be of some assistance (even if that meant just talking it out), you're a cool dude. I wish I could spend that much on my build (ugh).
And oops, I'm at work so I couldn't see the graphs, my bad. Just for the record, I want to say that King's dyno reads a tad bit low, considering a 3.0 Accord 6MT with 3.5" CAI/RV6 V3 Jpipe/OBX Catback made 228/200, and a Base TL 6MT w/RV6 true duals put down 230. That was the same day the ILC put down 292, according to Dandaman over at Vsixpee. That's an extra 60+whp/50wtq, which is a ton. So that '320' is SOLID.
And oops, I'm at work so I couldn't see the graphs, my bad. Just for the record, I want to say that King's dyno reads a tad bit low, considering a 3.0 Accord 6MT with 3.5" CAI/RV6 V3 Jpipe/OBX Catback made 228/200, and a Base TL 6MT w/RV6 true duals put down 230. That was the same day the ILC put down 292, according to Dandaman over at Vsixpee. That's an extra 60+whp/50wtq, which is a ton. So that '320' is SOLID.
10-09-2013, 10:30 AM
#13
well 4 cars if you include my wife's Pilot. She doesn't work so I have to foot everything . I bought my wife's Pilot for $34k and that's by far my most expensive car. I paid 20k for the TL, 20k for the 135, and I expect 25k for the 335. Not saying it's a small sum of money but it's not like I'm buying 50-60k brand new BMW's, lol. Not wealthy by any means - I like the 20k price arena when it comes to cars.
. I bought my wife's Pilot for $34k and that's by far my most expensive car. I paid 20k for the TL, 20k for the 135, and I expect 25k for the 335. Not saying it's a small sum of money but it's not like I'm buying 50-60k brand new BMW's, lol. Not wealthy by any means - I like the 20k price arena when it comes to cars.
10-09-2013, 10:39 AM
#14
All motor
What does "mostly stock" mean for the 135?
10-09-2013, 12:21 PM
#15
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Awesome write up. You've been a key player when it comes to forging the path N/A and also openly sharing the project along the way. You've also put a lot of fantasies to rest. You're right about people dreaming and talking about 350 whp all motor 3.2's and 400 whp 3.5's, but hey, people love their TL's and are just being a little optimistic I guess. I was hoping you'd hit 350, but the end result isn't too shabby. Also proof positive that it just gets exponentially more costly with less return as you climb the ladder. The first 10-20% power increase isn't too bad, but you've proven it gets crazy expensive to get to 30%. And sadly, I don't think these cars will ever get cheaper to mod since 10 years after their release, there still aren't tons of options as far as serious engine mods like cams, heads, tuning solutions.
10-09-2013, 02:36 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
It means I might already have some things in the garage waiting to go on when my BMW certified warranty expires next year 
I like to think I've been as open as possible, but I've definitely met resistance from some armchair experts along the way. Not everyone will accept my data, I just hope that I can save some people some headache.
Keeping the TL for now, not pushing the 135 past 375 whp or so, which in terms of relative PSI, the stock N54 turbos can handle just fine. They only start to give out and hit their limit as you approach 450.
+1, although if someone came off the street and offered me 18 or 19k I might take it, lol.
Awesome write up. You've been a key player when it comes to forging the path N/A and also openly sharing the project along the way. You've also put a lot of fantasies to rest. You're right about people dreaming and talking about 350 whp all motor 3.2's and 400 whp 3.5's, but hey, people love their TL's and are just being a little optimistic I guess. I was hoping you'd hit 350, but the end result isn't too shabby. Also proof positive that it just gets exponentially more costly with less return as you climb the ladder. The first 10-20% power increase isn't too bad, but you've proven it gets crazy expensive to get to 30%. And sadly, I don't think these cars will ever get cheaper to mod since 10 years after their release, there still aren't tons of options as far as serious engine mods like cams, heads, tuning solutions.
Keeping the TL for now, not pushing the 135 past 375 whp or so, which in terms of relative PSI, the stock N54 turbos can handle just fine. They only start to give out and hit their limit as you approach 450.
+1, although if someone came off the street and offered me 18 or 19k I might take it, lol.
10-09-2013, 03:50 PM
#20
At $18-19k, I would have bought it a couple months ago when I bought mine.
Thanks for sharing your experience though, it has saved me a lot of money. Long ago I had considered the fully bolted and built route, but I'm leaning towards a properly tuned, fully bolted, low-boost application instead.
You and chad also have implanted the idea of owning a 135 now too. The bang for your buck sentiment is present.
Thanks for sharing your experience though, it has saved me a lot of money. Long ago I had considered the fully bolted and built route, but I'm leaning towards a properly tuned, fully bolted, low-boost application instead.
You and chad also have implanted the idea of owning a 135 now too. The bang for your buck sentiment is present.
10-09-2013, 04:01 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
At $18-19k, I would have bought it a couple months ago when I bought mine.
Thanks for sharing your experience though, it has saved me a lot of money. Long ago I had considered the fully bolted and built route, but I'm leaning towards a properly tuned, fully bolted, low-boost application instead.
You and chad also have implanted the idea of owning a 135 now too. The bang for your buck sentiment is present.
Thanks for sharing your experience though, it has saved me a lot of money. Long ago I had considered the fully bolted and built route, but I'm leaning towards a properly tuned, fully bolted, low-boost application instead.
You and chad also have implanted the idea of owning a 135 now too. The bang for your buck sentiment is present.
i'm glad you were able to hone your requirements for your TL - I definitely think if modest power is the goal, then low boost is the way to go.
135's are just getting way too affordable to deny. Of course they will still break, but it's hard to find a comparable car with 50k miles and the performance out of the box that you get, for $20k.
10-09-2013, 08:37 PM
#22
Pro
iTrader: (6)
Jordan I will keep you posted, I plan on starting a build thread on the 2G board but I don't have time for that at the moment. I have my j35a3 long block, full gasket kit, cams, springs, and a pile of little things. I'm lining up my machining work now.
10-10-2013, 02:26 AM
#23
damn, have you ever seen pauls (nva-av6)'s builds? Im running his custom dual tb, FULLY built 3.6 and was originally running his M90 SC on a 3.6 fully built motor..
M90 ran 405 wheel 330ish torque.. all together about 10 k motor and all
current all motor set up is 330-340 wheel with hondata tune all together maybe $7500..
not including the exhaust, rdx injectors, fuel pressure regulator and little things that come with building an engine..
not sure where 16k came up, nor am i here to be "that" guy but i am here to not let you give up ..
i LOVE my all motor set up…
between the two, even though S/C was 70-80 more hP, it was just top end…
running my buddy with the M90 i would creep away (from a roll at 30) then at 60-70 i would start pulling hard…
now most only race till 80-100 so whats the use of that extra hP?
Now my all motor…20-30-40 roll i consistently pull from him…low end is there..
response is there, ALL motor has a lot less problems that FI…don't have to wait for boost to kick in, etc.
now comparing the two…I love NA…
I've been through about 7 different set ups, 3 different tunes, 3 different ECUs
M90 ran 405 wheel 330ish torque.. all together about 10 k motor and all
current all motor set up is 330-340 wheel with hondata tune all together maybe $7500..
not including the exhaust, rdx injectors, fuel pressure regulator and little things that come with building an engine..
not sure where 16k came up, nor am i here to be "that" guy but i am here to not let you give up ..
i LOVE my all motor set up…
between the two, even though S/C was 70-80 more hP, it was just top end…
running my buddy with the M90 i would creep away (from a roll at 30) then at 60-70 i would start pulling hard…
now most only race till 80-100 so whats the use of that extra hP?
Now my all motor…20-30-40 roll i consistently pull from him…low end is there..
response is there, ALL motor has a lot less problems that FI…don't have to wait for boost to kick in, etc.
now comparing the two…I love NA…
I've been through about 7 different set ups, 3 different tunes, 3 different ECUs
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10-10-2013, 07:52 AM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
damn, have you ever seen pauls (nva-av6)'s builds? Im running his custom dual tb, FULLY built 3.6 and was originally running his M90 SC on a 3.6 fully built motor..
M90 ran 405 wheel 330ish torque.. all together about 10 k motor and all
current all motor set up is 330-340 wheel with hondata tune all together maybe $7500..
not including the exhaust, rdx injectors, fuel pressure regulator and little things that come with building an engine..
not sure where 16k came up, nor am i here to be "that" guy but i am here to not let you give up ..
i LOVE my all motor set up…
between the two, even though S/C was 70-80 more hP, it was just top end…
running my buddy with the M90 i would creep away (from a roll at 30) then at 60-70 i would start pulling hard…
now most only race till 80-100 so whats the use of that extra hP?
Now my all motor…20-30-40 roll i consistently pull from him…low end is there..
response is there, ALL motor has a lot less problems that FI…don't have to wait for boost to kick in, etc.
now comparing the two…I love NA…
I've been through about 7 different set ups, 3 different tunes, 3 different ECUs
M90 ran 405 wheel 330ish torque.. all together about 10 k motor and all
current all motor set up is 330-340 wheel with hondata tune all together maybe $7500..
not including the exhaust, rdx injectors, fuel pressure regulator and little things that come with building an engine..
not sure where 16k came up, nor am i here to be "that" guy but i am here to not let you give up ..
i LOVE my all motor set up…
between the two, even though S/C was 70-80 more hP, it was just top end…
running my buddy with the M90 i would creep away (from a roll at 30) then at 60-70 i would start pulling hard…
now most only race till 80-100 so whats the use of that extra hP?
Now my all motor…20-30-40 roll i consistently pull from him…low end is there..
response is there, ALL motor has a lot less problems that FI…don't have to wait for boost to kick in, etc.
now comparing the two…I love NA…
I've been through about 7 different set ups, 3 different tunes, 3 different ECUs
For reference if i didn't need to replace one of my heads, and the cams were not so jacked, this build would have cost about 6k which wouldn't have been nearly as bad.
I agree with you that all motor is fun, but man I gotta say my 135 has all the benefits of turbo with ease of adding more power with just a tune, but it also feels like an NA car - it makes max torque at such a low rpm and holds it. The low-mid range on the car is absurd and puts most NA builds to shame when you consider with a $500 Cobb tune it can put out 350 whp and like 375 wtq on pump gas with no other mods at all.
I love all motor - especially for the sound it produces, but my point is there is a reality today that modern turbo cars make insane torque down low, power is always available just like an NA car, and you can just do more for less money if you want to add power. This translates into better $:hp ratio, and more reliability. I can shift my 135 all day long at 2500 rpm and it moves briskly - you can't produce the torque curve in an NA setup the way modern boost can.
here's the dyno chart I had done on my 135:
10-10-2013, 08:07 AM
#26
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
^You need to...
That's the last I'll go off topic. Sorry. Lol
That's the last I'll go off topic. Sorry. Lol
10-10-2013, 08:18 AM
#28
Race Director
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Good because I've crammed so much BMW knowledge into my head in the last few weeks it's about to burst.
10-10-2013, 08:24 AM
#29
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
Gotta hate that 4k vanos dip tho...
10-10-2013, 08:45 AM
#34
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
^Yep it's BMWs vtec. The n54 is dual (double) vanos. One of the reasons they are so torquey. Both intake and exhaust cams can be adjusted.
10-10-2013, 09:48 AM
#36
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
Do it. BMW won't care that you put an exceedingly superior intercooler in the car.
10-10-2013, 10:03 AM
#38
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
^Decided to go light eh?
I assume you're extremely happy to not be driving on the stock runflats? Lol
I assume you're extremely happy to not be driving on the stock runflats? Lol
10-10-2013, 10:29 AM
#39
I_L_C .. dude great info and thank you for all the R&D done ... I still think there are many possibilities with NA but your hard work has shown where this road can take you
as for the 135... I love that car.. folks at my office get it for the xcross stuff and because it is easy to be tuned as you stated.. and they did a great job with the lines
as for the 135... I love that car.. folks at my office get it for the xcross stuff and because it is easy to be tuned as you stated.. and they did a great job with the lines
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i_love_cars (10-10-2013)
10-10-2013, 10:31 AM
#40
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
^Except for the rockers/bottom of the doors. Why must it be curved!
