High Boost Pulley on S/C
04-29-2007, 12:57 PM
#121
^I have no idea. I don't have any guages. That's why I want to get to the dyno ASAP. I gathered from the others in the thread that the pulley has leaned out their A/F ratio's. I would like to know what a safe number is aswell. Maybe some of the other members with more knowledge can shed some light on this.
04-29-2007, 01:46 PM
#122
The richer the safer but to a limit, if you are dumping too much fuel you lose power and clog up the cats! If you running too lean say like 17 and up you are risking blowing up your engine cause there isn't enough fuel for combustion of all that air! I believe 12.5 to 1 would be nice, still rich but a nice compromise between safety and power output!
05-03-2007, 03:31 PM
#125
No problem here so far, knock on wood, the car is surging way more though! Basically I gotta go WOT most of the time, not sure if the HBP worth it, the power increase is there but the driveability's crap! Until there is a fuel solution...Hondata.....#^$^$$
05-03-2007, 03:52 PM
#126
CEL was caused by my stock cat. They put my Pro cat back on and the CEL was gone. They didn't tell me the code, but my mechanic said it had nothing to do with the HBP. Also, my Procats are not deteriorating. The rattle I have was caused by something else. 
05-03-2007, 03:57 PM
#127
Originally Posted by ACTROS
shit, sorry to hear that, hopefully it's nothing serious, btw what was the code?
did the car act funny before the cel popped up?
did the car act funny before the cel popped up?
05-04-2007, 02:33 PM
#135
Originally Posted by dan.....k
Code for the CEL was P0420, catalyst efficientcy below threshold. This had nothing to do with the HBP.
Anyway, good thing it's not something else related to more boost due to HBP, maybe injectors maxing out @ high rpm, running lean, whatever, I almost started to worry there LOL.
Come to think of it, Lookinco had a couple of CELs pop up when he was running the HBP and boost cooler way before he started his engine build I believe! I can't recall exactly what they were though...
05-05-2007, 10:09 AM
#137
That is a good question...
Ussi,
If the Comptech blower uses a fuel management unit (FMU) then the need for larger injectors is not required, but a change to the fmu is.
Most systems use a Mass Air meter to read the incoming air flow. The Mass air meter uses two resistors that are sent voltage from the PCM. On the Ford EEC's (IV & V), the resistors are supplied up to a maximum of 5 Volts. They are cooled off by air that passes over them. The PCM then tries to apply more voltage to keep the resistors at the same temperature.
This data is then looked up in a internal chart called the transfer function. Air flow vs MAF voltage vs rpm. The PCM then knows air flow in lbs/min so it calculates VE (volumetric efficiency). VE, btw is theoritical air flow over actual air flow.
The PCM also tries to maintain a commanded air fuel ratio at WOT. Since it's calculated and there are no adjustments made to the air fuel in real time, like at part throttle...things can go wrong...quickly.
Let's say the PCM wants to hold an A/F ratio of 11.5:1 at WOT with a supercharged engine. Let's also say the engine is a 4.6L V-8 from a Mustang GT. The Mustang uses 19 lb./hr. injectors from the factory. The injectors are flowed at 39.5 psi of pressure in the fuel rails and the system is a return style fuel system (so not to complicate matters).
Everyone ok so far?
Then at WOT (wide open throttle) the supercharged 4.6L develops 8-psi of boost and flows 4.6V on the MAF while reading 46 lb./min. through the MAF.
The PCM takes 46 lb./min and divides it by 11.5:1 A/F ratio and gets 4 lb./min of fuel required to hold that A/F ratio at WOT. To get that number to match the rating of the fuel injectors you multiply by 60. 4 X 60 = 240 lb./hr. of fuel required to hold that A/F ratio.
To see how much fuel is required at each injector we divide by the number of injectors you have. In this case, a 4.6L V-8 uses 8 fuel injectors (1 per cylinder) and we get:
240 over 8 = 30 lb./hr. of fuel required at each fuel injector.
PROBLEM!!!!!!!
Remember the Mustang uses 19 lb./hr. injectors in this example and we need at least 30 lb./hr. of fuel at each injector. So there is not enough fuel and the engine goes lean fast. The 02's do not tell the PCM there is a lean condition since the PCM assumes everything is correct and the feedback to the PCM does not exists at WOT.
BOOM!
The FMU is usually connected to the fuel pressure regulator and as it sees boost pressure it pinches off the return line to the fuel tank. By doing this, fuel pressure in the rail sky rockets from (in this case) 40-psi to whatever number the FMU is ratioed to. Let's say 5:1 gain rate is the FMU in the example.
The FMU raises fuel pressure 5 psi for every 1 psi of boost it sees against it. We have 8-psi of boost at WOT so the fuel pressure (FP) jumps from 40-psi to 80-psi in the rail. 5 psi FP X 8-psi of boost = 40 psi FP + 40-psi FP = 80 psi total FP.
Injectors will then start to spray more fuel when they open since the pressure is much higher in the system. That 19 lb./hr. injector has just become a 36 lb./hr. injector due to increased pressure in the rail.
As boost drops off so does the fmu's diaphragm and therefore FP drops off. It's a linear and works fairly well...it's just not a system. The PCM has no idea you are cheating the system by increasing the FP. It does work.
Most new cars use a RETURN-LESS fuel system with a fuel pressure monitor.
The PCM calculates exactly how much fuel is required and only pumps enough to maintain the pressure required in the rail. It will not provide more than factory spec FP. The 2005-2007 Mustang is like this. The only way to get around al this is to reflash the factory program in the PCM with the right software to handle whatever modifications have been done.
Older cars can be manipulated by things like the FMU.
Which brings me to my point, if the TL uses a return-less fuel system (which I'm not familiar with) then going to a larger injector will require a change to the PCM.
Since the TL uses manifold pressure to calculate fuel delivery (meaning no MASS AIR METER) things get tricky when you add more air flow than say 100% VE.
You need to know what the stock TL injector is rated at. What is the rail pressure on the engine and what the injectors flow at.
How much boost is present and what kind of fuel pump does the TL have (pressure rating and type).
Then you need to know what A/F ratio the PCM is commanding (not what you see at the exhaust tips from the wideband dyno oxygen sensors), but actually what the PCM is commanding. Remember catalytic converters change oxygen content so the reading after the cats is different than the PCM commanded A/F ratio.
At some point you will reach the point in which the system is maxed out. The fuel lines can only flow so much fuel, there might be a restriction somewhere you guys haven't even seen yet. Things might work fine at 350 HP but not so well at 360 HP. Really...when you don't understand the system (the engineered system) you really cannot modify it properly.
I don't care what guy "x" has done down the street with his TL and blower. I've heard that crap before, "but this guy is running 15-psi of boost with NO trouble, why can't I?"
Ok...it might work but it's not a system and eventually something will go wrong.
A-Train
If the Comptech blower uses a fuel management unit (FMU) then the need for larger injectors is not required, but a change to the fmu is.
Most systems use a Mass Air meter to read the incoming air flow. The Mass air meter uses two resistors that are sent voltage from the PCM. On the Ford EEC's (IV & V), the resistors are supplied up to a maximum of 5 Volts. They are cooled off by air that passes over them. The PCM then tries to apply more voltage to keep the resistors at the same temperature.
This data is then looked up in a internal chart called the transfer function. Air flow vs MAF voltage vs rpm. The PCM then knows air flow in lbs/min so it calculates VE (volumetric efficiency). VE, btw is theoritical air flow over actual air flow.
The PCM also tries to maintain a commanded air fuel ratio at WOT. Since it's calculated and there are no adjustments made to the air fuel in real time, like at part throttle...things can go wrong...quickly.
Let's say the PCM wants to hold an A/F ratio of 11.5:1 at WOT with a supercharged engine. Let's also say the engine is a 4.6L V-8 from a Mustang GT. The Mustang uses 19 lb./hr. injectors from the factory. The injectors are flowed at 39.5 psi of pressure in the fuel rails and the system is a return style fuel system (so not to complicate matters).
Everyone ok so far?
Then at WOT (wide open throttle) the supercharged 4.6L develops 8-psi of boost and flows 4.6V on the MAF while reading 46 lb./min. through the MAF.
The PCM takes 46 lb./min and divides it by 11.5:1 A/F ratio and gets 4 lb./min of fuel required to hold that A/F ratio at WOT. To get that number to match the rating of the fuel injectors you multiply by 60. 4 X 60 = 240 lb./hr. of fuel required to hold that A/F ratio.
To see how much fuel is required at each injector we divide by the number of injectors you have. In this case, a 4.6L V-8 uses 8 fuel injectors (1 per cylinder) and we get:
240 over 8 = 30 lb./hr. of fuel required at each fuel injector.
PROBLEM!!!!!!!
Remember the Mustang uses 19 lb./hr. injectors in this example and we need at least 30 lb./hr. of fuel at each injector. So there is not enough fuel and the engine goes lean fast. The 02's do not tell the PCM there is a lean condition since the PCM assumes everything is correct and the feedback to the PCM does not exists at WOT.
BOOM!
The FMU is usually connected to the fuel pressure regulator and as it sees boost pressure it pinches off the return line to the fuel tank. By doing this, fuel pressure in the rail sky rockets from (in this case) 40-psi to whatever number the FMU is ratioed to. Let's say 5:1 gain rate is the FMU in the example.
The FMU raises fuel pressure 5 psi for every 1 psi of boost it sees against it. We have 8-psi of boost at WOT so the fuel pressure (FP) jumps from 40-psi to 80-psi in the rail. 5 psi FP X 8-psi of boost = 40 psi FP + 40-psi FP = 80 psi total FP.
Injectors will then start to spray more fuel when they open since the pressure is much higher in the system. That 19 lb./hr. injector has just become a 36 lb./hr. injector due to increased pressure in the rail.
As boost drops off so does the fmu's diaphragm and therefore FP drops off. It's a linear and works fairly well...it's just not a system. The PCM has no idea you are cheating the system by increasing the FP. It does work.
Most new cars use a RETURN-LESS fuel system with a fuel pressure monitor.
The PCM calculates exactly how much fuel is required and only pumps enough to maintain the pressure required in the rail. It will not provide more than factory spec FP. The 2005-2007 Mustang is like this. The only way to get around al this is to reflash the factory program in the PCM with the right software to handle whatever modifications have been done.
Older cars can be manipulated by things like the FMU.
Which brings me to my point, if the TL uses a return-less fuel system (which I'm not familiar with) then going to a larger injector will require a change to the PCM.
Since the TL uses manifold pressure to calculate fuel delivery (meaning no MASS AIR METER) things get tricky when you add more air flow than say 100% VE.
You need to know what the stock TL injector is rated at. What is the rail pressure on the engine and what the injectors flow at.
How much boost is present and what kind of fuel pump does the TL have (pressure rating and type).
Then you need to know what A/F ratio the PCM is commanding (not what you see at the exhaust tips from the wideband dyno oxygen sensors), but actually what the PCM is commanding. Remember catalytic converters change oxygen content so the reading after the cats is different than the PCM commanded A/F ratio.
At some point you will reach the point in which the system is maxed out. The fuel lines can only flow so much fuel, there might be a restriction somewhere you guys haven't even seen yet. Things might work fine at 350 HP but not so well at 360 HP. Really...when you don't understand the system (the engineered system) you really cannot modify it properly.
I don't care what guy "x" has done down the street with his TL and blower. I've heard that crap before, "but this guy is running 15-psi of boost with NO trouble, why can't I?"
Ok...it might work but it's not a system and eventually something will go wrong.
A-Train
05-05-2007, 03:18 PM
#138
Originally Posted by dan.....k
Code for the CEL was P0420, catalyst efficientcy below threshold. This had nothing to do with the HBP.
05-12-2007, 01:59 PM
#141
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Atrain
First of all...you never EVER go into the water box when on street tires.
You also never need to heat up the tires if they are not drag radials or slicks. I don't care what people tell you...there is just no way a street tire will hook harder if it is hot. Drag radials and slick are different, they have different compounds.
The fact that you got the front tires all wet but could only clean off one of them means you most likely brought water with you to the starting line.
Not only is that dangerous to you and the next guy...it leaves you with even less traction than before. Sticky tire gooo + your water = no traction.
Other than that...not a bad video. Couldn't see what you ran, but hey...nice burnout.
My 1995 4.6L T-Bird launching hard at Cecil County Dragway MD. This is with Drag Radials and 19-psi of tire pressure. The front tires are stock to allow less rolling resistance. The car went 12.802 @ 109.45 mph on that pass. 4,000 lbs. 4-speed automatic and IRS suspension.
A-Train
You also never need to heat up the tires if they are not drag radials or slicks. I don't care what people tell you...there is just no way a street tire will hook harder if it is hot. Drag radials and slick are different, they have different compounds.
The fact that you got the front tires all wet but could only clean off one of them means you most likely brought water with you to the starting line.
Not only is that dangerous to you and the next guy...it leaves you with even less traction than before. Sticky tire gooo + your water = no traction.
Other than that...not a bad video. Couldn't see what you ran, but hey...nice burnout.
My 1995 4.6L T-Bird launching hard at Cecil County Dragway MD. This is with Drag Radials and 19-psi of tire pressure. The front tires are stock to allow less rolling resistance. The car went 12.802 @ 109.45 mph on that pass. 4,000 lbs. 4-speed automatic and IRS suspension.
A-Train
05-12-2007, 02:08 PM
#142
Team Owner
Just to add my .02, whenever making a serious change (like upping the boost on an 11:1 motor lol), I always add octane to make sure it's not going to do anything bad and then back the octane off. 100 unleaded is your friend. It gives you a much bigger safety margin if things go wrong. I run enough octane in the Buick in street trim that I can go so lean it will misfire but won't detonate and break things. Exhaust valves and such might hate the 1800 egts but you can usually get away with that for quite some time without damage.
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rollaboy_95 (11-10-2014)
12-22-2010, 08:34 AM
#146
Three Wheelin'
Not bring this back up from the dead but i figure its better then making a new one 
... I am looking into a HBP for my s/c when i go to install it and cant seem to find any for same. anyone know where i can find one now. Links dont seem to work anymore!
Also anyone have any issues running this? Did anyone have any issues with A/F on the stock ACM that comes with the kit? I do plan on getting a F/IC but until then i may run it on the ACM.
Thanks!
... I am looking into a HBP for my s/c when i go to install it and cant seem to find any for same. anyone know where i can find one now. Links dont seem to work anymore!Also anyone have any issues running this? Did anyone have any issues with A/F on the stock ACM that comes with the kit? I do plan on getting a F/IC but until then i may run it on the ACM.
Thanks!
12-22-2010, 10:04 AM
#147
CT engineeering is still selling it for about $100, that said I would stay away from it. It spins the rotors faster than they were designed to go heating up the air and wearing out the rotors more quickly. The Fic and larger injectors will help but keep in mind most engine failures with the S/C guys were because of the HBP.
As far as Psi the car runs 5 Psi on the stock pulley until you open up the exhaust, then Psi drops to 3-4 from the lack of restriction. More power less boost.
As far as Psi the car runs 5 Psi on the stock pulley until you open up the exhaust, then Psi drops to 3-4 from the lack of restriction. More power less boost.
Last edited by Hi speed; 12-22-2010 at 10:07 AM.
12-22-2010, 11:03 AM
#148
Three Wheelin'
That is a very good point and i considered that. I know i am going to get flamed for this idea but my thought was i wanted to keep my light weight pulley (underdrive) as people on here flame on the Ralco brand and i would not be able to sell it and buy a stock size. my thought was run the underdrive and get the high boost pulley and see where the PSI would be at. My thought it would be maybe 4-6 psi (if high boost puts out 10).
12-22-2010, 03:00 PM
#149
Suzuka Master
The smaller crank pulley will not affect the rpm and boost that the SC turns at with the HBP.
02-03-2012, 11:54 AM
#150
Advanced
Anyone on here do the HBP with some long term results?
I've had the annoying surging problem since day 1 on mine, and as far as I know no Hondata Flash available for it?
I was thinking of doing the HBP as well, but would not do it with out supporting mods. Such as bigger injectors (RDX 440CC), and F/IC or standalone from https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/new-ecu-preview-806456/
I've had the annoying surging problem since day 1 on mine, and as far as I know no Hondata Flash available for it?
I was thinking of doing the HBP as well, but would not do it with out supporting mods. Such as bigger injectors (RDX 440CC), and F/IC or standalone from https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/new-ecu-preview-806456/
02-03-2012, 01:43 PM
#151
CT engineeering is still selling it for about $100, that said I would stay away from it. It spins the rotors faster than they were designed to go heating up the air and wearing out the rotors more quickly. The Fic and larger injectors will help but keep in mind most engine failures with the S/C guys were because of the HBP.
As far as Psi the car runs 5 Psi on the stock pulley until you open up the exhaust, then Psi drops to 3-4 from the lack of restriction. More power less boost.
As far as Psi the car runs 5 Psi on the stock pulley until you open up the exhaust, then Psi drops to 3-4 from the lack of restriction. More power less boost.
02-03-2012, 03:31 PM
#152
Advanced
I'm running AEM custom intake, RV6 J-Pipe and full Comptech exhaust. So i'm assuming my boost pressure has decreased. I do no have a boost gauge, but I do have an AFR to keep on eye on that at least. I'm also in Ontario Canada where the temps are usually a bit cooler here on the average, but the option to run meth is a possibility too.
I guess I should direct this question to people that are running HBP with a proper tune on larger injectors, timing control, with an F/IC and or Standalone system plus other supporting mods meth etc.
hi spped: Can you comment on your setup and why it didn't work out for you?
I guess I should direct this question to people that are running HBP with a proper tune on larger injectors, timing control, with an F/IC and or Standalone system plus other supporting mods meth etc.
hi spped: Can you comment on your setup and why it didn't work out for you?
02-03-2012, 07:33 PM
#153
I loved my SC, the only reason I pulled it was to go turbo. I ran the standard boost pulley with full exhaust ( hi flow cats, ATLP 3rd cat delete, J pipe and catback ). At the time there was no real other option for engine management or bigger injectors and I didn't run meth. The car was very fast with the SC at stock boost levels and I only heard of one person who ran the HBP without blowing their engine, while I saw member after member reporting damage.
I don't think the extra 30 HP is worth the risk. Even with methanol injection most kits I looked at, start spraying at 3 psi so there is little to no ramp up of the spray. Once you hit 3 psi the pump goes 100% instead of progressively going from 0-100%. Not a huge deal but, might mean you can't run as large of a meth injector to keep the engine from stumbling.
I don't think the extra 30 HP is worth the risk. Even with methanol injection most kits I looked at, start spraying at 3 psi so there is little to no ramp up of the spray. Once you hit 3 psi the pump goes 100% instead of progressively going from 0-100%. Not a huge deal but, might mean you can't run as large of a meth injector to keep the engine from stumbling.
04-10-2012, 04:05 PM
#157
The SC is always spinning if the engine is running so you would be spinning it too fast anytime you were driving the car. If you only use the power pretty infrequently I don't think it's work the risk of hurting the engine and SC. At 340 you are making good power, so I would leave it alone. You could look at a custom pulley with a boost level in the middle, but with high intake temps you are risking causing the engine to knock.
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