i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

alright so I picked my car up tonight from King after the first round of tuning on my Flashpro and I must say I'm very pleased. As I mentioned in my 3.7 build thread, they are really good guys over there. And they cut me a good deal on the tune at about 300 bucks.

The results of the tune have me pretty much dead set on expediting my high compression build on the motor, so I expect to be giving my car back to King in a week to let them get started on that.

VTEC dip was all but eliminated, gains were had across the board, the power band is smoother across the board, idle is perfect now (after the 3.7 TB install) and the tip-in issues with the butterfly that some of us noted are all but eliminated. The Flashpro gives some settings to handle all of that so my worst offenders being 3rd and 4th gear, were confirmed by King and we worked those kinks out. No more tip-in.

Car drives smooth as hell. I couldn't believe it. Truly. With full bolt-ons and the 3.7 IM/TB, the car was breathing really well, so the results were pretty much in line with what I expected - basically just tweaking the ignition timing, idle speed, A/F maps, and VTEC tweaks got me roughly 8 whp and 5 wtq at peak in addition to the quality of the drive. The gains at VTEC engagement are much higher as can be seen in the dyno chart.

While the power gains weren't enormous, they are about what I expected given I don't have PnP on the lower runners, head work, or cams yet.

In terms of raw horsepower numbers, the gains were nowhere near high enough to feel (and even if the car had 350 hp it's still FWD so you'll never get the throw-back-in-your-seat feel of a high powered RWD car).

However, I can't stress enough the importance of what I refer to as "useful horsepower". A car with a proper tune is going to make better use of the power it has all through the power band, and you will feel that. I cannot stress enough how smooth the car is now. 2nd and 3rd gear feel fantastic, and I never fully realized how much the vtec dip kills you in this car until it was removed. I immediately noticed the reduction in hesitation. It just keeps pulling hard all the way up through the powerband.

Here is the dyno chart with a baseline pull before the Flashpro, and final pull after the tune:



In conclusion, the Flashpro was worth every penny and the results of the tune have me very excited to get going on an engine build. I really think with cams and some supporting work, these cars will be able to run some amazing NA builds and be stable on Flashpro with a good tune.

Sonnick

Good to hear from you! I'm glad you are happy with the gains man, that gain at VTEC is serious. You gained like 20whp there. For the first J series tune, I think the gains are great across the board. So excited for the build!!

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

Great info!

What's your full mod list?

Did you install any parts right before the flashpro session? If not, how many miles/months have you put on your full setup from above?

libert69

iTrader: (7)

im glad your happy but it doesnt seem like a great improvement in power. but if driveability is better then i would say its worth it.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

The 3.7 flows really well and the ECU without tuning did well to accommodate that + all the exhaust mods. There's only so much you're going to squeeze out of that without port/polish particularly on the lower runners, and subsequent engine work.

also keep in mind that the cam angles on these cars can't be tuned, which makes a huge difference. We don't have iVTEC so there's a lot of gains we miss out on there from a tune.

and this is essentially the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure there are ways to make it more aggressive but the point of this first tune was to get a baseline and an idea for what it can do, and make sure the car runs perfectly stable. That goal was accomplished.

including the price of the flashpro it basically cost me 1000 bucks to gain 8/5, smooth out the drive, and have the ability to tune as I build the motor. Easily worth the money IMO.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

aem v2 intake
3.7 IM/TB
RV6 HFPC's
RV6 v3 j-pipe
ATLP v2 Quads

I did not install any parts right before the session. I finished the above setup in October and have been driving it since. About 5k miles on it now.


Keep in mind that in stock form the 6mt type-s will put down 245-250, give or take. Back in October I put down 289 on the dyno above with all those mods, so on a good day I would expect to see 297 or 298 with the Flashpro given the above tuned pull vs. the baseline that they took today.

1000 for the exhaust, 550 for the HFPC's, 200 for the intake, 500 for the 3.7 IM/TB, 450 for the j-pipe, and 1000 for flashpro + conservative tune.

So roughly $3700 in mods got me roughly 45 whp and 35 wtq all said and done. and it drives right now that I have the Flashpro.

That's a testament to our awesome vendors XLR8, RV6, and Heeltoe/ATLP to produce such great exhaust mods that really help bring the car to life when put in conjunction with even a stock 3.7 IM. Crazy gains for bolt-ons.

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for posting results! Should be exciting to see the rest of the build

NvrDwn

I believe a 4in intake will see great gains.

Sonnick

I'm curious what the AFR was....and did they test the rev limiter at all?

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

rev limiter adjustments are coming when it's cammed with new springs.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Awesome numbers, especially considering you have the HFC's and not the PCD's. Ported runners, 4" intake (that's on my list soon) and pulley will easily put you over the magic 300 mark. With Stage 1 cams and some head work, 320-325 should be attainable. The 3.5 is no joke. I still say it's ~10 hp underrated from the factory.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

You were ~ 280 before the 3.7 swap when you ran your buddy's e46 M3 right? Bet you could creep on him from 60 + just the way your car sits now! He's in for a rude awakening once you do everything else.

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for posting your results! Did you do just one pull before and one after the install? Also curious if you dyno your car when it was stock.. I'm really impressed with how well the OEM ecu can adjust to our mods. It seems like if you plan to stick with all bolt on's the tuning probably isn't worth it but if you plan on going f/i or cams, its definitely worth it!

Sonnick

I'm sure they could've went more aggressive with the tune. I wouldn't say it isn't worth it if you have bolt ons. Who knows what they did and how much time they actually had to work on his TL specifically. The J series is a new monster in the tuning world. As he said, there aren't as many intricacies that can be adjusted like the K series, but there are still gains to be had as well as drivability improvements.

I also somehow think that the Type S ECU is smarter and will be able to adjust very well compared to the Base. I've seen gains of 10whp/tq on the FIC, so I have a feeling there are improvements to be had. Glad ILC was a me to get it tuned and drivability greatly I proved.

Btw dude, before I PM'd you yesterday I was debating checking this section first, and low and behold....lol. Any chance you could make a vid of your car?

Joey tl

$1000 = 8 whp/ 5wtq at peak on a fully bolt-on Type S car. Number seem low but you car is running with no problems = win win mod

I think our stock ecu works really well with some bolt-on that way you don't see a huge increase in gains with the flashpro.

thanks for the update....great job

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

stage 2 cams, my friend and I have the Unorthodox UDP, by the way. That doesn't increase dyno numbers though. I'm going to do the bottom end as well to raise compression. I plan to run a 100 octane mixture all the time.

He drove my car last night and was amazed. He's driven it before it had the 3.7 manifold and the Flashpro. His biggest comment was what I've been saying as well and that is that the tune makes the car run so much smoother and the power is being put to the ground so much better. The horsepower number by itself only means so much. He's quite sure I'd be door-to-door with him. Sadly we'll never know because we have his M3 under the knife right now in our garage for winter projects and by the time it warms up my engine build will be done.

a couple of pulls were done to warm the car up - on the chart you can see that pull #2 was the baseline, and pull #16 was the final. So 16 dyno pulls total.

The tune was conservative and we know there will be tuning improvements for the j-series in the future with the Flashpro, again this was just to get a feel for what it can do, and how well it can smooth out the drive. With all my bolt-ons I had tip-in, idle issues, and the occasional CEL. The Flashpro not only fixed all of that but it gained me some modest power as well.

Even shifting is better because they took care of some of the rev-hang issues.

and yes you are correct with a built motor, this is a great solution because you can have confidence that it can be properly tuned without idle issues, throwing codes, confusing the car about misfires, etc.

I still cannot stress enough how much stronger the car pulls on the highway now that all the parts are working together properly.

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

Everybody looks at the peak numbers, but driveability and a smooth powerband are much more important. Also, it takes ballz to be first.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Stage 2? Damn, you're not playing!


And yeah, people need to stop looking strictly at whp/$ here. On these cars $100 per HP is the norm when staying N/A. This made close to that overall, but also got rid of the rev hang, vtec dip, idle issues etc. and it's tough to put a price on all that. I know I'd kill to get rid of the rev hang.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

Looks good and there was a big gain of ~20 hp/tq where the cross over is. + having the car drive smooth and like stock is great!

type-s'er

Probably going to get flamed for this, but I'm pretty disappointed with the power gains from this. I was hoping for double those numbers.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

there is only so much that can be done on the j-motor with just bolt on compared to the K. The j only has vtec on the intake side and there is no VTC

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

I know some other people got their kits this week and while Gerzand doesn't count because his car is a freak of nature already , I am curious to see what other people will get out of this initially.

Hopefully we'll see some additional dynos start to appear in the next week or so

Ratm68

perhaps the tune may have worked out some kinks you may have had before. But as for power, the chart doesn't show any sort of useful power at all. Other than the vtech smoothing, theses gains are nothing before vtech and after vtech, it's next to nothing. Not trying to hate, but it's hard to draw a different conclusion than what the chart is telling.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

In contrast, some people on this forum have seen 20 hp gains with their JnR ECU and after countless hours of tuning trying to smooth everything else out.

We have 2 hours of tuning time on the Flashpro. Less gains but none of the headaches of the only other full-out tuning solution (JnR) available to the TL.

Give the platform time to mature and the raw power gains will get better.

dandaman15

Its not nothing, the scale of the chart is probably throwing people off because the difference in the line isnt as big as people would like to see....

Theres an icrease along the entire HP range of 5-6hp, and 8 in some spots, the tq curve showing the same results. King is known to take their time and not push things to their limit so the customer doesnt have to worry. They have built a reputation for making safe reliable power. There is still more that can be done. King will tune conservative because they are not familiar with the platform, and the are known to be conservative to begin with. Like others have said, give it more time and see what others will do.

This isnt a mod where you pay $1000 and get a set amount of HP from it. You cant calculate its worth from HP/$. Its worth so much more because as you progress and add mods you can continually optimize each mod to get more power. If ILC is planning on building a motor than this would be needed anyway, and now he can use it for future plans.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

^^ this

and for what it's worth, King put the ignition timing as hard as it can go without detonation and loss of power. There isn't much more to be squeezed out of my car at the current time, until I build the motor. Which will be getting underway in a week or so

Dave_B

You've got to keep in mind this is an NA motor. The only ways you can make big improvements in power is by increasing and extending useable rpm like manipulating the intake manifold runners, reworking the heads, and/or adding cams. The trade-off is usually a reduction in power in the lower rpms because of the reduced volumetric efficency. The other option is by increasing displacement. Either option tends to be very pricey.

For the case of this motor, restrictions in the intake and exhaust were removed and timing and A/F ratios adjusted. For just doing those changes, to gain 45whp and 35wtq is pretty impressive in my book. Granted it took a mountain of money to do so. This isn't a turbo car like an EVO or WRX where you can simply add a downpipe and tune and gain 40whp+/60wtq+ for $1,000.

I do have to agree that the ECU tuning probably isn't going to net a huge improvement in the 1/4 mile, but should net a drop of .1-.15 seconds and 1.0-1.5mph gain. Not bad for an NA tune. The only thing I might be a little leary of is the before and after tune numbers between 6 runs, three without the tune and three with. The reason being, it's not uncommon to see a difference of 5-10whp/twq between back to back runs on a dyno with no changes made to the car.

type-s'er

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the JandR ecu showing much higher gains, around 20whp gains on a NA base TL engine

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

and? Is that supposed to mean that you should automatically get a minimum of 20 whp on a type-s?

the ECU's are completely different between base and type-s, so they will respond differently to the tune, and on top of that the type-s is already making higher power from the factory because it's more aggressively tuned because it has different cams, higher flowing pre-cats, and larger intake manifold. Not to mention my ECU had already fully adjusted itself to all my mods as best it could and produced good gains.

My point is there are so many variables here that you just cannot have realistic expectations that just because a lightly modded base 3.2 makes 20 whp, that a type-s should do the same.

furthermore, it is an undeniable fact that there are only so many parameters you can tune on the j-series. It's not like you can sit there and say "well this isn't making as much power as I'd like so i'll just continually advance ignition timing. "

The car takes in X air and matches it with Y fuel, which gets married up to be consumed in an optimal way by the tune. Beyond that, you have vtec mapping and you have ignition timing. That's about it. And the reality is you can only fine tune the AFR to the right level (mid 12's) and after that there's no point touching the AFR anymore because it would then be running too rich or too lean if you pull it out of that parameter.

So that leaves you with VTEC mapping and ignition timing as the only real remaining parameters to gain power from (and yes rev limiter can be extended but all that can hope to do is keep your power close to the plateau for a little bit longer - you won't be gaining additional power there).

and you WILL hit a wall on ignition timing as the spark will no longer keep up and you will have detonation and you will have power LOSS as a result.

I know what I know, and this was a great mod for the money, and people need to get away from just the raw power number.

but you can't satisfy everyone I guess.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

ugh. AFR should be around 13.1 (according to Paul).

There your extra 10whp

Ratm68

5-6hp gain is after vtech..hardly the entire rpm band. before vtech, it's very marginal. Like Dave_B said, it's well within the margin of error between back to back dyno run on most dyno. Again, not trying to flame, just no sense in trying to sugarcoat the results. I'm sure it will improve with more time on the tuning platform.

Sonnick

Vtech is a phone.

Atlas.46

^lmao

type-s'er

Sorry, but who is Paul? showing your source is always appreciated.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

look him up NVA-AV6.

bouncer07

get a bigger intakte and you'll break 300

brianch

Awesome. So now I can say my TL makes 50whp with bolt ons and a tune

jk

Congrats. What's next?!

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Full engine build. Currently doing research on how to approach the pistons

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

there is a guy on v.6.p that has a built type-s motor in his accord with the type-s ecu. You might want to contact him. I think he has everything minus camshafts (using stock type-s), and flashpro as of now. Don't know what his new numbers will be like. I think he was making 350whp/350wtq all motor



nighthawk04v6

brianch

Don't know how the availability of parts are like for the TL in terms of internals but higher compression pistons, forged rods, sleeved and bored block. More aggressive camshafts. Going to be one hell of a TL.