eggyhustles

use imgur

pohljm

photobucket workin for me?

I hate cars

I'm using the same site I always have. I posted the same pictures on DIYMA just fine. You can see the spacing it left for the picture in the previous attempts. They were there for several minutes and then went away.

I hate cars

Went through my old threads, every picture I've posted on this site is gone. But they're all there on the other sites I post on.

I hate cars

Here's a link to them on DIYMA:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/1660890-post12.html

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Looks good! If it's really that easy then I might be going with those and calling Jerry about some kicks soon. I heard a guy's (Lorin on DIYMA) setup this week and it was a 3-way and it was pretty good. A little bright for my tastes, but still good. The vocal depth was incredible from a 3-way and everything was on the dash and didn't move.

Can you run a 3-way w/ sub(s) AND run a center? Since you wouldn't be able to run a center from a different amp because all the inputs would be used up..could you get away with using the MS-8's internal amp for a center? Well, I guess the sub channel just uses one and the center would use one so that'd work out if you used the last set of RCA's on the MS-8. Hm. Didn't you say we can fit a 6.5" in the center? ID doesn't make anything less than 6.5" that can be mounted coax so I'm kinda screwed. Be nice to be able to fit a 4" in there or something.

I hate cars

I ran a 3-way with center for a while on the MS8. 6 channels to the front stage, 1 channel for both subs, and one for the center. The center obviously has to have a crossover, not enough channels to run the center as a 2-way even though the MS8 does have that option. You can also run passives between the midrange and tweeters in the 3-way to free up 2 more channels if needed. You'll have to cover the tweeters during the very first sweep for TA and then uncover them for the 3 EQ sweeps. It works fine, I did that for a while too.

The center really helps in making it a 2 seat car where the driver and passenger can have a good stage at the same time instead of only one seat at a time. I may try and get one of the 650s to fit today just for the heck of it to see what it sounds like with a good midbass in there but I don't think they will fit due to the depth. You could probably fit an 8" in there, depth is the only restriction. If you don't mind removing the plastic air ducts to install the speaker and then reinstalling them, you could fit any common midbass in there but without removing the ducts temporarily, 2" deep is about the max you're going to get in there.

You can use the MS8's amp but it's going to adjust the overall volume of every speaker to the weakest speaker.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Yeah I figured it might adjust the volume like that. That's why I thought it'd be best to run a 4" full range in there that could go down somewhat low and be able to keep vocals up high. Don't really want to mix a different brand with the ID's though. I just need to worry about getting all my stuff I have now set up lol. Been without music for months now. Ran all my wires today for the line driver, MS-8 display, etc but it's just too damn hot here. Using a garage tomorrow so hopefully I'll be done.

Anyways, don't mean to hijack. Have you had any more listening time with the 10's? You still feel like the upgrade isn't as huge as you thought it might be? Says a lot about the Esotars if that's the case at the end of your trials.

I hate cars

I'm still getting used to them. There's a more natural sound to the drums. But it's as if the 650s do not realize they're just a 6.5". They keep up with the 10s and sound great doing it. There are a couple heavy drum tracks that I've been listening to and the 10s seem to have a more natural sound and they definitely have less rattles. There's a little pop that's missing but after listening to both back and forth for a while, some of the pop almost seems artificial and it could be the slight rattle from the door on the 6.5" side. Not really a fair comparison I know.

As I turn up the volume, I can feel the hit from the 10 in the passenger door across the car in my hair and even my jeans. Going to try out U2 With or without you today since it has a series of chords that are low 60s to upper 70z.

niebur3

Keep us updated on the sound differences. I am intrigued!

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

Now move your seats back about 4".

I hate cars

I sort of snagged the wiring on something when I was moving it forward and it got stuck fully forward. Just got the bolts out which was no easy feat with the seat fully forward.

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

I meant like this.

I hate cars

I saw that just a few seconds ago, right before I came over here. That doesn't seem too bad, it would still have plenty of forward adjustment for normal driving and you would practically be in the back seat for competition.

Are you still enjoying the large midbasses? I've still got mixed feelings but overall I think it was a good move. If I give up on SQ, I'll still have a loud, dynamic system.

To anyone following this, I still haven't done the driver's side midbass, it still have the Esotar 650 in there. My back has been too bad and with the pain meds, I would probably screw something up if I attempted to work on it. I have spent a few hours just sitting in the car listening to it and I'm starting to like it more and more. Got a ride to Home Depot and bought a few more tools and all of the materials I need to really do the doors nice this time. I'm using 1/8" thick metal to cover the holes, plenty of MDF, some 1/4" fiber board if I don't like the metal for the holes, and a bunch of other crap to make the rest of the installation go easier. Finally picked myself up off the couch and made it to the gym and I feel so much better. Got a super light back workout in and my back feels so much better. Being the dumbass I am, I attempted and got 405lbs up once on bench so I haven't lost a whole lot of strength during my last couple of years off. Hopefully this is the beginning of feeling better. A lot of my back problems pointed toward inactivity as one of the contributing factors and a 40lb weight gain from the inactivity.

More to come in a few days. Thanks for dropping by, Kirk, I'm always looking at your car for new ideas. Any idea when it might be competition ready?

I hate cars

Just wanted to see them side by side to see if we ended up with about the same positioning.

I hate cars

And of course, my f'ing pictures still won't work on this site, only this site. That's so incredibly annoying.

niebur3

How do you like the 182's blending with the 430's?

I hate cars

They seem to blend just as well as the 650s with the 320hz lowpass. So far so good.

niebur3

What specifically sq wise do you notice now that you have listened more (and mentioning you might be giving up a little in terms of sq)?

Gary Mac

405 bench, always a good feeling....

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Matt, try using tinypic.com. I find that the pics stay up for a LONG time and always work everyone I've put them.

I hate cars

Sore does not begin to describe how I feel today after starting all over yesterday.

Gary Mac

Shit... I bet. You just sent a 8.0 earthquake through your body. That's why in 19 years, I've never taken more than 2weeks off, and I stopped lifting like a meathead!

I hate cars

I've had mixed feelings about this whole thing, that's why I haven't been recommending it yet. I've been trying to give the 10s a fair shot but the 650s were keeping up with them and then some. For "pop", the 10s were good. For bass guitar, they sounded ok but I had to boost the bass a bit to get any sort of a bass line. The panel has been off the passenger door this whole time. I started installing the panel today and wow, what an instant difference. Everything just fell into place. This is the best it's ever sounded for sure. This whole time I've been debating to go ahead and sell the 650s or to sell the 182s. Now I know which ones are getting sold. Having the panels on makes a huge difference in bass.

They get seriously loud even with a 50hz highpass. I turned the subs off today and I still have way more bass than the stock system with sub had. I could go subless with a 35hz highpass if I just wanted something with more bass than stock but did not want to install subs. These things are great for SQ and add a realism to some music that I've never experienced before. They're so dynamic. And for the type of person that wants something like an 8" sub to add a little more oomph over the stock sub, I would seriously consider this instead. You're likely getting more output than a single 8" sealed sub and you take up zero space.

With the panel installed and no grill mods, there's noticeably less vibration than with the 6.5". I can make the door panel vibrate but it past the levels I normally listen at. I've been pushing the 650 harder than before and I haven't bottomed it but it makes the side view mirror completely useless. I'm still so impressed with these Esotar speakers. The 10" at about the same volume vibrates the mirror but not that bad. I have no explanation for that.

I'll try and get more listening time and write an actual review in a week or so.

I hate cars

Got the passenger door just about finished. Getting ready to do the driver's side door. Can't wait to get this over with. Taking a break for a few minutes. The only thing I'm disappointed with is the Dyn "10" is only 9.5" at it's largest point with the cone area of a large 8". Not a big deal but I'm not sure why it's marketed as a 10 when it's more like a 9". The good thing is I'm not sure if I could have fit anything larger. On the positive side, excursion is quite a bit more than a typical 8" midbass and is closer to subwoofer territory so I'm still fine as far as displacement goes.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like a win win! Not many rattles, easy installation and up front seamless bass. If I ran a 3-way I'd be jumping all over this.

I hate cars

Getting a little worried. I have one door done. Turned it on and it has static with some small pops and no music except through the tweeters and subs which happen to be on the 900/5. All speakers on the 600/4 were making hiss instead of music. I muted the MS8, no change so it's likely after the MS8. I thought I had shorted the new speaker out at the terminals on the door but that would be hard to do considering the deadener is wrapped around from the front to the backside of the door panel, no bare metal. This is the black deadener, I'm guessing it could still be conductive. So I removed the mid and everything was ok. Notched the sheet metal a little more, put some electrical tape over the terminals, installed, and the same hiss. I beat on the door, no change. Turned it off and back on, it's perfect again. Hopefully it's something I've over looked on my part, maybe the passenger seat not being bolted down has somehow hit something on the amp. I really didn't want to bolt it down since my new carpet is supposed to be here today or tomorrow. I'm sure it's no big deal but it's scary when there's $4k worth of speakers hissing and popping. I would never do this again if they blew, it would go back to stock.

I hate cars

One door is 90% complete. I have to trim the door panel a little to get it on but otherwise very close. I decided to rebuild the doors and I found some really crappy work that I did many years ago that was covered up with deadener.

The large hole in the door was covered with card board held on with duct tape around the outside and covered with deadener. It was not exactly sturdy. I ripped it all apart and added 1/8" metal strips across it and then laid some 1/4" thick fiber board over it and deadener over that.

On the small hole above the speaker, I deadened the door again, folded the excess deadener around the hole and on the back side and then put 1/8" thick metal over it held on with screws. That got deadener as well. The door is much more rigid now.

The panel is on but won't quite sit flush around the speaker. I need to notch out a small portion of plastic. With the panel on, midbass is much louder. With the highpass at 60hz the sub to midbass transition is perfect and to say I have upfront bass would be an understatement. Drums are the most impressive improvement by a long shot. There's a new sense of realism and the subs and midbass no longer feel slightly disconnected. Everything sounds like it's coming from up front even with the subs boosted a bit. I know you can get upfront bass from TA and tuning with a higher crossover point but this is idiot proof. I don't think you could not have upfront bass with this setup.

I've run test tones from 50hz to 400hz to try and detect any problems and differences between the 650 and 182 and I would say the 183 is just as good up to it's 320hz low pass and slightly better the lower you go. I only wish I had an RTA to see what I'm hearing.

This setup requires so little tuning to make it blend effortlessly with the subs and midrange and that's saying a lot considering how much I like the 650s.

The kick from drums can be felt on my legs from the PASSENGER side midbass yet it doesn't sound out of place or too loud.

The 650 has far superior midrange ability and very good midbass ability and in a 2-way it's the superior speaker. Sometimes I think people don't exploit the potential of a 3-way as they should or could with a larger driver. If the car allows it, I believe every 3-way should try and use a larger midbass driver, there's not a single downside that I can think of other than installation. With the midrange driver, we use a higher tweeter highpass and a lower midbass lowpass. Why wouldn't we use a larger midbass as well since we're using a lower low pass? It seems like we're only partially taking advantage of the 3-way.

I can't imagine ever asking a 6.5", even a very high end 6.5" to do midbass again after this. My thoughts have changed so much after beginning with audio 5 years ago. I would never do a sealed box unless the install wouldn't allow bandpass, ported, or IB. I will always go with the most cone area that will physically fit for the subs and midbass so this virtually eliminates a 2-way for my future. Cone area rules lol.

I hate cars

This was the opposite of what actually happened. I have LESS rattles with the larger driver.

A little update, I'm thoroughly happy. I had no idea my happiness would depend on having the door panel on or off. As of now, I'm absolutely not doing the grill mod, I gained way too much bass with the panel on. Got to download pictures but I went all out and added a lot of bracing and made the door a lot more solid. Not because it had rattles but because I want to be done with this project for good. No more loose ends that I put off for another day. Going to finish the other side tomorrow.

But the real reason for this update.... I have rolled the window down but apparently not all the way down in the past. It does down until there's maybe 1/2" of window showing and hits on the magnet. I've got to space the track out maybe 1/4". It looked as if the glass would clear completely and it's so close but not quite. Spacing looks very easy, likely a 10 minute job. I'm pretty happy though, with the speaker flush mounted it just barely does not make it.

A couple of my friends that have heard this car in all of it's configurations heard it the other day and were impressed, especially with the sub to midbass transition and these guys are pretty harsh. In fact, they're kind of mean if they don't like something about it.

I hate cars

Day 2 or 3 now with it complete. Loving every second of it. I usually go several months without driving my car into work and riding the carpool the 45 minutes into work but I drove in today to get a better feel for the speakers. There's an improvement just about everywhere but I've noticed when I'm at freeway speeds, they overcome the road noise much better. I still miss the 650s but I know I will be very happy with these. The thing that really got me to decide to try the change was listening to just the midbass playing 63-300hz. It sounds like mud in that range. I figured I wasn't doing the 650 with it's excellent midrange abilities any justice playing just that range and the 182s seem to have just as good of a snap and better low end.

stevemk07

You do know I was joking about using the stock speakers... If I had your gear I would be pretty stoked. I am glad you like the 10s. I might try 8"s one day.

I hate cars

Thanks. If you have a 3-way, you might as well do 10s, it's the same amount of work either way. 2-way, 8s would be the max practical with a good tweeter.

I demo'd it to some co-workers. Of course, all they were interested is how loud it would go and looked at me crazy when I said it's an "SQ" system.

I hate cars

I can't believe I forgot to mention one thing. It's the reason I updated yesterday and forgot the whole reason for the post. There is one problem...

The windows don't go all the way down (these are flush mounted, no spacer). Since the passenger side didn't go all the way down, I spaced the window track with a nut on Kirk's suggestion but it's not enough. I didn't realize they don't go all the way down at first but there's just 1/4" of glass showing toward the back of the door and I didn't see it until a couple days ago. The spacer made no difference because it wasn't enough to make the window clear.

The window stops when it hits the speaker on the auto down. It's a pretty soft landing, it stops immediately. I'm debating on whether it's worth it to try and modify the window tracks or to put a strip of rubber on the bottom of the glass and on the magnet of the speaker to give it a soft landing. There's so little glass showing, no one is going to notice other than the owner of the car.

I also wonder if I do the window reset procedure that you sometimes have to do when the battery dies if the window would automatically stop short of the magnet on auto.

The midbass seems bottomless at 63hz. I played some AC/DC and Sublime on the way home today instead of the usual "SQ" music and Country. The system definitely has more of a fun factor. I've got subs that play midbass exceptionally well and I can only imagine how much of an improvement these midbasses would be with a lesser sub.

I finally have that "hit" that previously only the 15s could deliver. The problem with the 15s playing that high was localization and they would vibrate the heck out of the seatbacks, adding to the localization.

jda123

You could always put the 650s back in too. I put a second set of 6.5s in my car in a 4-way even though the general thought was that tuning a 4 way is too hard (it is not - most stuff under 250-500 is not that hard). I didn't want to risk losing what I had, so I just added. They overlap and the ones at the end of the door are 55-120 hertz and the ones up front are 90-250 (those are close).

You almost don't need subs... but not quite.

stevemk07

I know you like the three way but in terms of sq in a two way setup, and given a quality sub that handles everything below 100-120hz, would you say 6.5 or 8" is the way to go? I am just wondering if the 8" would be sacrificing quality up at the 2-6k region. (my guess is if the 8" is designed foremost for sound quality that 8" would be the better option as it would not be as preoccupied with the 80-200hz region as a 6.5" might be). In terms of excursion, at what frequency area does that start to not be a relevant consideration?

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

The sub/mid transition isn't the one you need to worry about in a 2-way, it's the mid/tweeter. Most 8" mids don't want to play into the midrange (2kHz +) and you start running into beaming much earlier in the frequency band. 8's start beaming around 2-2.1kHz, whereas 6.5's start around 2.6k and most will play up to 3kHz + MUCH better. I'm not saying this is a must b/c there are 8's that will play in a 2-way just fine, but you'll definitely want a tweeter that can reach lower. Don't want to be taking an 8" up to 3-3.5kHz.

jda123

Most 2 way sets cross over at about 3K (give or take depending on the set). Somebody could manufacture a good 8" that plays well from 100-3K, but there are more good 6.5s that can do this. The size of the driver has little do with FR or SQ, but the way that they are manufactured does... so you end up with smaller drivers playing higher in the range because of real-world considerations (cost & reliability) of making a driver... and market share of people who have room to install them... and then the price point where somebody would want to buy them.

This is a long way of saying that it depends on the 8... some might do well, others might suck... but this is also true with a 6.5. What they were built to do is what matters. It all boils down to what you are trying to accomplish and what is available in your budget to meets your goals. Ultimately, nobody can balance all of these considerations but you.

stevemk07

Sounds reasonable. Come to think of it most quality 2- way bookshelf speakers that I know of have 6-6.5" woofers, including my Energy RC10s which sound more like towers.

Thanks for the inputs. Perhaps I will keep my future considerations to 6.5" components for sake of ease, market value, and the huge selection available.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

6.5's will be fine for 90% of people. If you want to go 8" or more then you might as well do a 3-way and let the midbass do it's thing and have a dedicated midrange

On another note.....RC10's! Nice! I have the RC-70's, RC-LCR, RC-10's & PA-120 sub. I also have Energy's C-line (C500's, CC-100, C-100's). Energy makes very nice stuff. Kinda sucks they got purchased by Klipsch though

I hate cars

Many larger speakers will play into the midrange. My 15s play into the upper midrange easily. The problem is beaming especially in the doors when at least one speaker is nearly 90 degrees off axis.

A 6.5" beams around 2,600hz
An 8" beams around 2,000hz
A 10" beams around 1,600hz
And a 15 around 1,000hz.

This is the same regardless of the brand of speaker, it's purely a function of the cone diameter.

So with a 10, you would need a tweeter that would comfortably play 1,600hz, and lower would be better. You can use a really good tweeter that will play low with an 8" but a 10" is pretty much 3-way territory.

The 3.5" midrange I use beams around 4,000hz and I run it up to 5,000hz and sometimes 8khz since they're very close to being on axis.

All else being equal, a large speaker will have less distortion and better sq than a smaller one. The less excursion required, the more linear and the less distortion. If I highpass my 10s at 80hz there is virtually no visible excursion no matter how loud I crank it where the 6.5s were working hard.