Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

Your not done yet?

The 9's play effortlessly and I stress effortlessly down to 45 with authority. Had her playing with the doors open earlier and it really sounds like a full blown sub in the door. Even if I later decide to go back to a 6.5 in the door I will mount them the same way I did the 9's. The door skin no longer vibrates.

A low excursion, high efficiency driver is key in a door.

I did put a bolt and nut thru the window track to stop the glass from hitting the speaker. It is about 1.5" up from OEM. The nut is in the middle of the track so it would not collapse and I can go back to 100% OEM.

Going IB 15's this time. The rear deck is still open, both wire runs are still open as the install is still underway but these subs will blurr my vision now.

I prefer plenty of power. If I can keep eyes open in a demo, I am dissapointed.



Kirk

niebur3

Do you have any closed cell foam or anything around the speakers to the door panel to make sure as much sound as possible gets through them factory speaker grills? Any pics of the modification you did to the window track?

I hate cars

Thanks for dropping by, Kirk. You've made the decision to go larger an easy one! Not to mention made the installation easier as well.

One question, how deep are your drivers, I can't seem to find the depth even on their own page. I saw someone post 4.5" but they didn't seem to sure. If there's a 1.5" difference in depth between the AT and the Dyn, maybe I can get away with no window track mods but I guess I'll find out once I'm in there.

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

J-No pics of the hole in the window glass 'U' channel. Just drilled a hole thru both sides. Used an open end wrench to hold the nut in the middle. Inserted bolt. The inner door panel has had Ensolite on it for years. With the freqs these are playing the door panel was not a concern. The system is a 3 way with a 5" mid on top of the dash where the tweets used to be playing down to the lower midrange.

M-I will have to measure the other set I have at home to get an exact depth. I've measured them before but I cannot remember. I also have the template for the MDF ring I made. Shoot me your e-mail addy to kirk3272 at aol dot com.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

any update on this Matt?

btw...I'll be PM'ing you quite a bit soon lol. I'm sure you know all the tricks to the MS-8.

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Nothing yet. You probably know the IRS is stealing everything, $7k a month from me but this Friday when I get a decent paycheck I'll be purchasing the Dyns and I'll probably have them installed and a review up by the 1st.

I'm really looking forward to it especially since Kirk says the larger cone/less throw vibrates the doors less at the same SPL. These Dyns are closer to a 9" but who's keeping track lol.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

9" is still bigger than 6.5"

But yeah, about the speakers...lol

pohljm

I think the elimination of the plastic grill and the increased acoustical transparency of the grill cloth will really help out too.

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I think so as well but from the pictures on DIYMA, it looks like Kirk's factory grills are still in tact. I guess I can always install the 10s first, run them with no door panels for a few days and then with the panels to see if I absolutely have to cut. It's about a 5" opening with a 9.5" driver blowing through it. If we were talking subs and IB, it would probably meet the minimum opening requirements but I don't know if the same rules apply to the upper frequencies. On one hand, not as much air is being moved, on another, could reflections be more of a concern? It seems like vibrations in the door card would be reduced if there was an easier path out of there. I might do it in steps just to see the difference rather than doing the speaker and cutting the grill at the same time.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

I think that'd be the smartest way. Where are you LP'ing them?

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I'll probably start exactly where I'm at right now for a subjective comparison. 70hz-300hz and then start lowering the highpass. I definitely plan on testing the upper limits as well, over time.

pohljm

I think kirk could benefit greatly with the grill mod.

There is such a difference between panel on and off. I would be happy with half the improvement.

eggyhustles

what's the purpose of playing the mid so low in the door?

It's gonna twang..regardless of how much deadening.

Let your subs do their job..

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Up front bass, less excursion, more impact/dynamics. Right now my doors have less vibration issues at 70hz than at 300hz.

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

I'm not worried about the 9's playing into the midrange. No grill mod for me. If the goal is to have them play into the midrange freq's a grill mod might be useful.

When I had 7's in the door the midbass dissapeared with the door panel off. The speakers 'load' against it.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

You can actually get plenty of bass up front with higher x-over points. Try raising the x-over points on the mid bass and on the sub (start at say 85). then get them leveled right, eq the lower sub octave (20-40) down a bit if there is any boomy-ness and I bet you will be shocked at the "bass up front" and midbass performance.

As an example the JL-350 demo mustang has the subs/mids x'd-over at like 110 and it sounds fantastic.

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There are some very interesting ideas thrown around in this thread.

So what I'm getting is as long as the doors are crossed over low say 300hz and below, the grill opening basically follows IB manifold rules, where you want the opening to be at least half of the cone area of the driver? With a higher lowpass than that and it can interfere with midrange.

Joe, I've been running the subs up high, up to 2,200hz one time when I only had a pair of tweeters. But 90-120hz is not uncommon for me. It's just too hard to tame, there's not enough eq. I like the sub bass to be boosted a bit and when they run that high there are problems with mine. I don't really have enough eq to tame them to match the midbasses. The only way I've gotten close is to boost the heck out of the 20-40hz, cut 63-100hz, and cut the overall sub level. Maybe it's an MS8 thing.

One of the things I can't get away from is the subs vibrating the seat backs in the higher frequencies. It's not bad down low but 90hz can be felt solidly in my back and it brings the subs to the rear. The midbasses can be felt in my legs and the midrange can even be felt through my shoes but I have to live with those but I can fix the sub issue.

Plus, I just like a lot of cone area with lower excursion. How cool would it be to have a pair of 15s, a pair of 10s, and a pair of 6.5s serving midrange duty? I'm thinking of doing something temporary to try the 650s in the kicks doing midrange, mostly on axis with no more than a 4khz lowpass. I've even thought about running the 430s as well, maybe 2khz to 8khz and the tweeters adding a little sparkle but that might be a phase and stage nightmare.

I don't think I have much to lose with the 10s in a 3-way. Even if I go back to the current crossover settings I've still accomplished my goal of less excursion on the midbasses. Going to keep the 650s just in case of course.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Your ideas and reasons are all valid.

My last word of advice, K.I.S.S. Don't overthink it.
I had someone who I respect immensely and honestly has forgotten more about car audio than I have ever learned tell me that if he had his druthers, a simple 2 way system + sub and enough processing to handle it all really well would be his system of choice from a tuning perspective.

That said, car audio is supposed to be fun. There is just so meting fun about crazy cone area and ridiculous power.

eggyhustles

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Matt, check this out. Not sure how he did it, but I assume the back of a Honda door panel is pretty close to the same as ours. I've got my ID speaker grilles and want to do this since you guys said there's a large difference, but don't want to F something up. Might send him a PM

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-sq-build.html



Edit: Looking at it now...it looks like he might have just cut it with a dremel or something and somehow mounted it in there.

pohljm

TM unfortunately our grill in the door panel is not either flat or circular. Its got some compound curves going on and is elliptical in shape. I dont think your going to get any 6.5" ID grills to look very good installed over the top of the panel. There will always be the underlying geometry giving you issues.

The grill cloth attached with the aluminum trim rings looks very original and sound quality will be greatly improved. I am going to have to find the time, the fabric and the ability to remove those pesky fasteners and then I will take care of it.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Well bummer. Hope ya get to this soon and write up a VERY nicely detailed DIY lol

xxx_busa

dont forget the AT 23I has very limited range

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Got one side partially installed today. Not sealed up, it has a big gap on one side. Obviously haven't tried putting the door panel back on.

On to the install. The Dyn 10" is more like a 9". It's flush mounted to the sheet metal, I have to pull it back out and run some more deadener under it and I'm installing a 3/4" MDF baffle "on the back side of the door" to add support on Kirk's advice. This speaker clears the window track and side impact beam with ease. Installation is as easy as cutting a hole.

My performance impressions aren't entirely accurate because the door is not sealed up and to make it worse, the panel is not on. In fact, it's way too soon to write a review, this is just my initial impression of a half installed, untuned speaker. I haven't changed any settings on the MS8, it's still calibrated for the 650 that was in there so the midbass is highpassed at 70hz. During fairly loud listening, there's almost zero visible excursion but the output is great. That was my main goal. I went ahead and turned the gain on the amp up a bit and faded to one side for fear of hurting the 6.5" still in the driver's door. This is probably the first time I've experienced punch you in the chest midbass before. The kick drum sounds more realistic at these levels, I'm overall impressed and excursion was still pretty low.

The most impressive part is the lack of vibrations even with the speaker mounted directly to the door. There are no vibrations to speak of from the door itself at a volume level that the 6.5" was not capable of. Ironically, with the 6.5 there were rattles when pushed. It's true what Kirk said earlier, it seems as though you can get more output with less rattles from the larger speakers. We'll see what happens when I put the door panels back on.

Hopefully I'll have it finished tomorrow.

pohljm

Sounds like great progress!

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I got it sealed up and brought the high pass down to 63hz, low pass at 320hz. I have mixed feelings for sure. The 650s just do so well producing the lower stuff right up until they run out of excursion. With this highpass and with material that hits around that frequency, the 10" is just starting to separate itself from the 6.5". There's a more natural quality on some drum beats. I don't think you could not have bass up front if you tried at this crossover. I'm definitely not saying it was worth it yet though.

Interestingly enough, door noise is surprisingly lacking on the 10" side.

Trunk Monkey

iTrader: (1)

Well that's a bummer. I know it's likely hard to tell if there's a difference in SQ as one is a 10" Esotech and the other is a 6.5" Esotar, but do you think the 6.5" still sounds better with the increased excursion? You might get to bring down the HP a bit, but if the increased distortion isn't as apparent as the decreased SQ going from Esotar to Esotech...then I think your 6.5's might be fine. Only you know that though. Hope ya took pics! Any progress or thoughts on the door mod? Still going through with it?

niebur3

Keep us updated on your listening thoughts. And for god sake man, post some pics!!!!

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This gives me a new respect for the Esotar line. It keeps up with the 10" no problem even at 63hz. I think the only thing I'm gaining is increased excursion ability. The Esotar sounds great all the way until it bottoms and it has a lot of stroke before that happens. No signs of stress or distortion. Part of the reason I'm pushing forward is if you've ever heard a speaker playing 63-320hz, it sounds like mud. IMO, it's a waste of the Esotar's amazing midrange capabilities to have it playing only this range where all it has to do is make a pop lol and maybe a simple bass line. In this range I wouldn't say I'm giving up SQ. Now if it were a 3-way, I wouldn't consider the trade.

I hate cars

Definitely. It's slow going, I've hurt my back for the first time in my life and I'm off of work which is really screwing with my head right now. They gave me some sort of insane pain killers that I try not to take because even though they work well for the pain, I couldn't think about driving a car or doing this install on them. Sometimes I have to take them so I take a 2-3 hour timeout and rest. I was just bragging the other day that at the age of 35 and throughout MMA and powerlifting and all of the dumb things I've done, I've never had an injury and then this happens to knock me on my ass. Probably too much info but if I don't finish today, that's why.

BTW, when mounted, these things look retardedly huge.

xxx_busa

Get Well Soon,

After hearing John's 4Runner at the last meet He got the Morel Supremo 9's. I can stop thinking about pairing a larger driver with ZR Planars I'm having built. Its amazing how much better its sounds with a larger MB. I'm going either the AT18, the 23, Absolutly amazing in a car with bigger MB....the smell of change is in the air. Watch that Back

eggyhustles

*puts 15 in door*

Oh, i wish.

I hate cars

I forgot to upload the install pictures but here's a quick comparison. There's little difference in depth.

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I don't know why the last picture didn't work. Here's a shot during the install and of the 182 vs the 650.

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I don't know what's wrong with this site, I can see the pictures when I go into edit but they're not there otherwise.

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If these don't work, I give up.

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Wtf?

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[/IMG]

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Wow, that's at least 3 of us, looking forward to your install and review.

At first I was wondering if I had made a mistake going this route. Some drums seemed to have lost just a little of their pop. But after a little more listening time, they seem to be more natural sounding. Hotel California has really come alive especially at higher volume. There's a more full sound to some of the drums especially in the beginning of the song. And again, as crazy as it sounds, less door vibrations.

I'm still so impressed these things fit with no mods other than cutting the hole larger but they are really small 10s. The frame measures 9.5".

I've fed them everything the HD600/4 has to offer with the bass boosted and midbass level boosted for testing purposes and it's very good to know they can't be bottomed at 63hz and somewhere around 150w. I'm free to send them all the power I want with no worries. I know some people talk about "SQ tunes" not being able to be played loud and retuning for "fun on the street" after competition but I think this is a big step toward having a comp tune with the midbasses crossed low and being able to crank it without damaging anything.

Jerry.... you know you want to do it.

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Apparently I can't post pictures to this site. They work on every other site I post on but not this one. Sometimes they appear for a while then disappear. Very annoying.