wytman

Yes - thanks for the clarification, I missed that part. My concern tho will still stand about the full durability of the replacement. I am not convinced they really know exactly what's wrong - if it was purely a thermal problem, they should have been able to solve that pre-production with drivetrain testing. As it happens, I am a reliability engineer for living - although not in automotive. But, I can say honestly that management often curtails (due to cost) what the engineers want to do to fix something right. It kinda sounds like the same thing is happening here.

When I picked up the car this evening, the service manager at the dealer told me that on the type S's - repeat occurrences of problems are becoming more prevalent - his exact words were - "I won't b.s. you, there is a problem here. It is normal for the Type S - and we have had a few repeats recently." He then told me to express my disasstisfaction to Acura/Honda directly. His personal belief is that the problem is related to the sport shift feature - although I don't really place much credibility in his theory there since he admitted he never actually got into one to see what was wrong.

Thanks tho - I will plug along until 100,000 miles - and maybe get a S2000 - probably about time for my "get a roadster mid life crisis" then anyway

EricL

No problemo...

I can't say this is scientific, but it seems that your dealer may be giving you the straight dope on the more returns of late. There just seems to be more people showing up around here with the "latest" "rebuild" (supposedly with all-known fixes applied) and they are a few folks that don't seem to be going too far on the "rebuilds."

The debate as to why this is happening, would probably equal the original, "What the heck is wrong with the m*$$$f*** tranny speculation/debate" that went on before Acura got called on the carpet by the LA Times article and subsequent NHTSA investigation.

I just wonder if they are really keeping the quality control up and making sure that they are NOT using dud parts in the rebuilds. Some of the rebuilds seem to die rather quickly, while others seem to be "solid" (well, so it seems for now).

I keep thinking of this mechanic we tried who put three starters in my wife's car, and I finally had to tell him to "Step away from the car" when he wanted to start ripping the tranny, clutch, and flywheel apart (manual gearbox). Apparently, the folks making the rebuilt starters couldn't even manage to produce a single rebuild that would work for more than a few minutes; he was convinced that it had to be “THE CAR.”

So, comparing something as simple as a starter (motor, bendix, solenoid, etc) with a electronically controlled transmission with a jillion parts, makes me wonder if someone is going off to lunch and staying there during rebuilds. Or, perhaps Acura is just recycling known-bad transmissions that they get back over-and-over again in some kind of bizarre ritual. (All speculation -- but sometimes I just have to wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper to just dump the returned parts in the crusher, and just hand out a new/fresh tranny.)

Getting to your point about the thermal problem... Well, I don't know if that is the entire problem either... And, they never redesigned the transmission to be "bulletproof." IOW, they didn't redo the tests to show an insignificant temperature rise, they just picked a max delta T that would surely cook-off the ATF, and dropped the temp for the 2-3 / 3-2 test that they "cooked-up." (Bad pun). The test procedure with different ECU schedule, valving, and other mods only REDUCED the max delta T. I didn't see someone add another clutch disk, increase the ATF flow by "design" (only through Q/C & Q/A), and really drop the sucker and then set a new and higher standard. IOW, you didn't see them go "bragging" to the public on how they built one killer of a transmission and announce all of the improvements like a proud parent...

If someone had deep pockets and could afford to send the gearbox to a truly impartial third party that was an expert at hardening gearboxes, there would probably be better info about ALL weak points. At one point Level-10 told me that the GEARS in the tranny were solid and good for around 400 HP/350 lb-ft TQ. I'm not sure about the bearings, and they were definitely into changing the clutch pack disk material and valving.

As long as the car has the same slushbox and no electronic throttle, they have to do some weak-ass stuff to cut down on power during shift transitions. They just can't electrically close the throttle down as can be done on the new '04 TL. Since they have the same number of clutch disk in each clutch pack, and they just improved the Q/A of the process, it’s not like they got some kind of exotic friction material (if they did, they sure didn’t mention it)


Finally, I'm still not convinced that it's SS by itself that is a problem. SS could be used to "over shift" the car, and by Acura's tests, the clutch packs are not too happy being constantly transitioned. So, if SS is used to reduce the number of shifts... There is basically no wear on the clutch packs when they are "locked-up." (Not in transition).


$0.04

wytman

An interesting tidbit which sort of is related. I have a friend who is both an engineer (mechanical, like myself) that I work with who also happens to be a ASE mechanic. He is hugely into classic muscle cars and hot rodding. He was telling me the other day about lots of problems GM had back in the late 60's with automatic transmissions (Turbo Hydramatic 350, 3 spd. auto - those were the days) when they went to higher horsepower big blocks. The problem - fried clutches due to excessive heat. The bigger the motor, the more power it puts out (more or less) and the more likely they were to have problems. He told me GM developed the T-400 expressly because of that - and the automatics GM makes today are derivatives of that basic design from about 1968/69 (at least for rear wheel drive, V8 powered cars and trucks like Camaro or Corvette).

Another way to look at all this - think about a pot of water sitting on a gas stove. You turn the burner on high, put a cup of water in the pot, you get boiling water in say 2 minutes. Double the water, it will take roughly twice as long. The point -> it takes time @ power to heat ANY mass up (water, steel, or clutch pack material). If power is held constant, you must increase the amount of material (mass) to make it heat up less in the same period of time. Since Honda/Acura didn't redo the clutch pack design by adding discs or going to some material that resists heat (burning) better (like thermal tiles from the space shuttle I guess) - I don't think the problem is really solved. Quality control issues aside, it appears Acura is attempting to cut the power that is applied to the clutch pack during upshifts by using delays/retard but in lieu of having a fully electronic throttle, there isn't much that can be done. They may be able to help a little, but not a lot.

I can definitely confirm a noticable change in shifting around 3rd gear now that I have driven on the rebuild for a month. It seems that there is a definite lag time between the 2-3 shift as opposed to the 1-2, 3-4, and 4-5 shifts which feel about the same as with the dearly departed transmission. It is so noticable that I find it kind of annoying. I am now thinking maybe driving the car as if it were a stick shift would be better. By that I mean of course using the sport shift more, but also backing off on the throttle a bit at all upshifts - if not entirely which as I am sure everyone knows is standard procedure when clutching and shifting a manual - unless you are speed shifting

aclura

Hey, let's get this going again. Mine has hardly ever had the ss used. It died 50mi. after the oil kit was installed. Look this is an automatic transmission and its purpose is to shift. Being an Acura/Honda, it should last 200k. If it did not want to shift, it should have been an oil pump, differential, or maybe an alternator. I smell American philosophy all over this whole mess.

Kendrick57

Well I have to add my name to the list. Bought my 01 with 59K and what I can only assume was the original transmission lasted until 62K. Acura of Omaha put a "new" transmission in and that one lasted two whole weeks!! Reverse went completely out. My! Such quality, such reliability! My theories about Honda have been shot to hell. I've owned an Accord, a Prelude and have a Legend and a Integra GSR in the family. All great cars so where does this CL crap fit in?

What really pisses me off is the fact that I can find no evidence that Acura is trying to improve the process. If you double your existing warranty, that is the same as admitting your product is inherently poor. In my world if you make a bad product you try to fix it or at least improve it. When I asked the Acura customer care people to send me a copy of a press release or whatever communication they had that stated what improvements had been made to rectify the problem they just mumbled into their coffee that no such thing existed. So, in essence, they are replacing junk with the same junk that broke the first time. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I love the car but who can tolerate having to daily use an unreliable, potentially dangerous machine.

aclura

This thing is made in the US.

doublern2003

ok just got my cl back from Acura in Duluth, and it seems that this is the third replacement, as well the second ECU for this car...and as it turns out, they also replace the motor mount as well ...It seems now it shifts a hell of alot smoother, and the shifts are a lot cripser.

AlanHalley

The automatic transmission in my 2001 CL Type S is dead, or nearly so, at 112,000 miles. The 2-3 shift is slow, the engine revs, then it "clunks" into 3rd.

I'm just past the extended warranty, but the dealer is going to replace the tranny for half price: $2,600.00.

I was in shock when I got this news on Friday, and didn't ask the service manager if I get a new tranny, or a rebuilt unit, and what sort of warranty is on the replacement tranny. I'll ask those questions today.

I've owned several Honda's, including one of the first in the U.S., an orange 600 coupe, and two Acura's. I was planning to drive my CL for 200k miles. After reading some of the posts on this site, I'm wondering how many transmissions it may take to go that far. I'm also reconsidering my loyalty to Acura, in light of their handling of this transmission debacle.

Anyone else past the extended warranty with a transmission problem?

Thanks.

Alan

AlanHalley

I took my CL in today for a "new" tranny. I'm getting a re-manufactured transmission with a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty. I guess I need to budget for a new car. Probably won't be an Acura. I'm thinking something more reliable, like a Chevy.

Alan

Bluto

Sorry to hear, that just sucks. $2600 is 1/2 the cost? $5200 to get a re-built transmission????

Alan, could you please start a new thread this info? (your experience after the warranty) Not many people here have had failures after 100k. You'll get a lot more views and feedback with a new thread.

mickey3c

5200 for a rebuild...

That is why is it bye bye acura for me... I would rather put the 5Gs down on another car. After you burn the 5 G in acura, it could fail a year later... then what.

RichardA7

Hi Eric and other maivens on line.Honda is apparently still denying the downshifting from 5-2 can be sudden or severe. I know it was that way with me. I am still recuperating from the major back surgery and I am still inpain every day, but i am getting better meds now to help with the pain. The issue arising now is that Honda says they built a test car which NIHTSA found the downshifting to be bengin and the test car was supposed to accurately represent the problem. Most people I have talked to indicate they had a sudden and ever downshift or lock up just as i expereinced. Do we know what the G force was for a downshift when I was going between 65 and 70 mph? My claim is that it was severe enough to cause my injuries Honda sayz their test prove otherwise. Anyone with info out there,please help. Thanks Richard A7

SCGamecocks82

Well no offense because I know some of you love imported cars but I've had a '97 Explorer since high school and it currently has 110 K miles on it, and I have never had an engine/powertrain problem whatsoever. I recently had to replace the timing belt, but that's simply a normal wear/tear thing. Other than that, nothing mechanical has EVER gone wrong with this car. I only had to take it back to the dealer to have rusty running boards replaced to me at no cost. It endures normal wear and oil changes at 3,000 miles.

That said, as a recent college graduate...I've been looking for a new car, and something that will last me through an internship and eventually law school. I test drove a CL Type S a few days ago, and was almost 100% sold on it until I approached this forum. I'm glad I did, because I'm not so sure about it anymore. I know Hondas are notorious for dependability, which is precisely why I wanted to buy an Acura - but I may just go after a Honda Accord now. Anyone know if they have similar problems?

kilowatt

Waiting for the other shoe to drop...

I bought my 2001 CL-S used with 82k miles on it. I've got 108k now. I got the tranny letter and took it into the dealer for the oil kit 6 months ago. They said "everything looked fine" and installed the kit. I haven't had any tranny problems since I bought the car (knock on wood) but I'm becoming increasingly more concerned. I have an extended warranty but that only covers me for another 10k miles. I wonder if it's worth buying another extended warranty from a third party (my Uncle did this for his SVX- another car known for severe tranny troubles). I've always loved Honda/Acura and REALLY love my CL-S, but this transmission debacle is just plain awful. People are getting physically injured and it seems as though Honda just doesn't care.

EDIT

By the way- for those of you who are thinking of or have sold your CL based on the tranny issue. How do you handle the sale? Do you tell buyers about all the problems? Clearly this seems like the moral thing to do- but who buys a car that's on it's 3rd tranny?

lead_sled_dog

For me, I told the buyer that all warranty work had been done by the dealer and the car was in great shape. And it was the day he bought it. I figured that Acura had sorted out the tranny problem (NOT) and that the previous failures had been repaired and no further problems would be expected.

us000011

Does a change to a better fluid help at all? Maybe Redline? Most threads say use only Honda ATF.

aclura

Fluid won't help.

EricL

Well, it won’t fix a broken tranny with fried clutch packs and it isn’t a cure all. However, there are a few folks that think their Redline, Amsoil, mixes helps things out.

AND

It could cause problems with warranty issues.

AND

It could help prevent ATF breakdown from high temps around the clutch packs.

An additional ATF cooler will not cure the tranny either, but, IMO, could help. (Once again, it's not a panacea.)

aclura

Yea, just drive them till they die and replace it. I the cause of this mess apparently isn't known.

Tanglewood TL

What year is your Acura? If a 2003, is it in the numbers to be covered by Honda's extra warrany coverage?

horsepowercrzy18

03 trannys are in good shape so far

djdonte

I have a 2003 TL-S with 98000 miles on it. The previous owner had the tranny replaced at 58k. So far its holding up. Sometimes under WOT it slips when shifting 2-3, and 3-4 once the car is warm. Im gonna take it to an Acura dealership before the 100k mark. Im just afraid theyre gonna blame the tranny problems on the way i drive since it only slips under quite a load.

cablegiirls98cl3.0

I have a 98 CL 3.0 with 135k miles, had no tranny problems until last week when I noticed a noise when in park or neutral. I took it to the local Japanese auto repair shop (who replaced my O2 sensor about six months ago) and they said it's the transmission and it needs to be replaced which will be $3800. I got a second opinion confirming their diagnosis right after, who quoted me closer to $5000.
I have had no slipping or leaks and the quote amounts are over half what blue book value is on the car, so I'm looking for a bandaid until I can sell it. Any suggestions welcome!!
- If I have it flushed and replace the filter at this point, might it quiet the noise and prolong it's life?
- What about an additive like a product called Trans-X?
As I stated above, suggestions welcome!

cablegiirls98cl3.0

BUMP! (anyone?)

YeuEmMaiMai

the 3.0CL uses the same crappy trans as the 98-02 accords...... what kind of noise is it? grinding, a clank?

YeuEmMaiMai

anyhoo I just got added to this list and this should have been done back in early 2007.......yeah that's right 30K on a trans that was burning fluid up every 7.5K or so.......

poisx7

iTrader: (1)

well said.

Dbsborg

My 2000 TL has 107,000 miles and the transmission just went nuts yesterday while I was out of state. The car just sat while the engine spun up with no movement including crawling in reverse. The green D5 light started flashing and the Check Engine light came on too. I turned it off, checked the fluid (OK) and luckily got it moving again. I got it past third gear and onto the interstate and made it home about 200 miles later. This car had the transmission serviced by the previous owner at maybe 40,000 miles?

Since I'm under the 109,000 and it was "fixed" once, will I have no problem getting this warranteed again?

YeuEmMaiMai

should be covered

donnylynn

Bought a used 2003 CL-S with 55k miles last year. now has 82k. Driving into work yesterday about 60mph and started to accelerate slightly to change lanes. It downshifted to second, threw me forward into the seat belt, then upshifted. Carried it to the dealer and they are replacing under warranty.

Does anyone know if they are still having trouble with the replacements going bad????????

GRNMCHN03cl

I got my 2003 CL when it had 30,000 miles. It has about 49,000 on it right now. I had the tranny replaced about 6 months ago and it still shift hard, I feel a sort of "rocking" as if the motor/transmount is really loose or bad.
It sucks because the dealership has on numerous occasion taken my car for the WHOLE f'in day just to tell me they CND the problem on a test drive.
I was pissed because I could clearly feel it when I drove it. I asked them why did it take you 8 freaking hours to make one test drive when I dropped the car off to you at 7:30 am. I want a 6 spd CL-S already!!!!

ceeveeohh

question... didnt want to read this but i jus bought a 01 3.2 cl. whats wrong with it? they recalled it?

tonymontano

Dont know about u guys, but on my 02 cl my check engine light and TCS went on at the same time and the car dropped into gears and jerked and all that, so i changed he main transmission soleniod and it went back to normal... try that before changing a transmission. if it dont work than u know u need a new tranny.. save some money.

Sir_Rad

Is it all 2003 3.2 CL? I have a Type S

The Vin Numbers state from Acura on Tranny Issues are. . .

2003 3.2CL (all models):
From VIN 19UYA42…3A000001 thru 19UYA42…3A005203

My VIN ends with 6489. So its not the included effected ones. Does that mean this TYPE S is safe or its going to happen anyways.

Jackson cl

I have come to learn that preheating the engine for about 10 to 15 min. Can help the life of the tranny.

Also when you clean the screen it prevents gear hesitation.

Jackson cl

My 1997 Acura CL 3.0 tranny no longer shifts into gear 1 or 2. Does rhis mean rhe gears are gone?

underst8

OK I know this is an old thread and I'll make a new one if no one sees this, but I have a new (to me at least as of last night) theory as this why this car and others break trannys.

Or in my case, the passenger-side motor mount, twice, in the last three years, even with the Ingalls Stiffy engine damper I have had installed for the last year.

My theory is this - the throttle is wayyyyy to sensitive right at open and close. As in, your engine is spinning at 3000+ rpm, and then you slam the throttle closed by lifting your foot to brake instead of easing off the gas pedal and allowing the engine to slowly transition from adding power to taking it off with engine braking.

My thought is that if you aren't smooth, the throttle slams closed and the engine rotates and puts stress on other components. In my case I'm lucky, got a strong tranny, and I break motor mounts.

I talked to a lady at a gas station who happened to be putting washer fluid in her 01 accord v6. mentioned something, and we get to talking about her tranny being replaced and so i asked about the symptoms and stuff. Sounded like I might be right.

The motor either brakes the mount hanging off the front, or the tranny hanging off the back.

I have a bright idea about changing the round throttle cable cam for an oval one and see if that makes the on/off transition smoother.

I welcome your thoughts!

McMelrose35

I'm not much of a car person but I too drive a 2001 cl and would like to know if this theory has been proven. If so let me know so I can get my car fixed. I love this car but hate the parts lol