2ndgentl

That would be my Crank Sensor on the transmission bell housing side. I have an 03 CL-S 6-speed manual. I posted earlier about my car not being able to go past 2000 rpms. Well, I found the problem...and it doesn't look good. Notice the chunk of metal missing from the crank sensor housing. Also look at the sensor how bad it is beaten up. I have a new OEM crank sensor in hand but I'm afraid to install it because something obviously is interfering with it! WTF can it be? I know it sits by the flywheel but I don't understand what happened! And that broken metal piece is somewhere in the bell housing as well I'm assuming. I need your input please, thanks!

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Wow. That is the first I've ever seen/heard of that happening.

'...that broken metal piece is somewhere in the bell housing as well I'm assuming.'

I guess the first easiest thing you could do, besides pulling the trans. off, is to remove the clutch case cover underneath the car to see if the remnants of that crank sensor housing has made its way down to that space? The 'loud ticking noise' you mentioned in your other thread could be that sheared piece interacting with something? Otherwise, unfortunately an investigation of the clutch/flywheel area, sans the tranny, will be necessary.

Was there any subtle suspicious events that you noticed, while driving the car, prior to all of this happening that might explain the above?

2ndgentl

It all started with a faint ticking sound and then day by day it got louder. The day that it broke down the ticking was quite loud. Right before I couldn't rev past 2000 RPMs I heard a clicking and clanging noise as if something metal broke off and was clinging everywhere for a second or two and then it stopped. Obviously that was the metal piece that broke off the crank sensor housing I'm assuming. Now the ticking might have been something hitting up against the crank sensor ever so slightly, and then obviously got closer and closer causing the ticking to be louder until it finally broke it off. You are right about removing the clutch case for further inspection. One thing I haven't mentioned is that I do have the aluminum flywheel which I installed exactly two years ago with a new stock clutch. I just don't understand what the heck could have happened. Would it make sense if my crank bearings failed causing slight movement of the crank and flywheel? The engine sounds perfectly fine to me with no knocking of funny sounds but I don't know...

zeta

iTrader: (1)

It would be interesting to get a look at the aluminium flywheel. My reasoning wants to understand where the crank sensor triggers, on the flywheel, 1) are located and 2) what else is in the rotational proximity of the crank senor triggers, on the flywheel, and the crank sensor in your pictures above attached to trans. housing.

Because you mentioned that there was a faint ticking initially and it progressively became worse, it sounds like some piece of something (either flywheel and/or pressure plate) had separated, beat the hell out of the CRK sensor housing to get you where you are now.

Was the flywheel the one Aasco makes for the 6-speed?

The best pictures I can find are on this thread:
https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...clutch-732514/

zeta

iTrader: (1)

I can't quite tell if those are screws? or rivets? of some kind depicted on the third picture that may have come loose?

2ndgentl

Yes, it was an AASCO Flywheel

2ndgentl

Hmmm...looking at those pictures of the flywheel I notice there are little bolts by the teeth on the flywheel. I wonder if any came loose. Either way, I have to take that plate out from underneath and take a good look with a flash light while I have someone bump the flywheel over little by little.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

The thread below shows better pictures of what appear to be screws that hold what I think are the CRK sensor triggers onto the flywheel; however, I'm not totally sure (post #12 2nd & 3rd pic; and post #17).

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-p...nstall-939621/

Maybe one of these screws became loose somehow and it and the trigger was what you heard graduate in intensity ('...heard a clicking and clanging noise as if something metal broke off and was clinging everywhere for a second or two and then it stopped.') and finally broke off along with a piece of the CRK sensor housing in your pics above??

IF it was, then perhaps you will find some of the pieces when the clutch case cover is removed, thus confirming.

That's the best hunch I've got, I hope I'm wrong and it is something minor; however, with the damage shown, something violent occurred.

What do you think?

2ndgentl

That honesty makes more sense to me than anything. Do you think I'll be able to see those with just the clutch plate removed? Damn, I would REALLY dread removing that tranny again. It would be the 3rd time...oh well, I'll just have to crawl under my car tomorrow and see for myself.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Not sure if you will be able to or not. The last time I had that cover off was when I was tightening the crank pulley bolt when I did the timing belt a few years ago, sorry.

As mentioned, if either that 'screw' and or one of those trigger plates falls out when the clutch cover is removed, that pretty much confirms it. Tap on the cover before removal, maybe you will be able to hear something rattle as a pretext.

I was looking at the Aasco limited warranty and it appears to be good for only 12 months. As a precaution, if possible, take plenty of pictures to document what you find when you check from the clutch plate and eventually when pulling the trans. That way, if you choose to fight, even though the warranty has expired, you'll be prepared. That screw should not dislodge and I would argue that it was a manufacturer defect. Either way, if it turns out to be what we suspect, they may surprise you and replace it on goodwill out of shear embarrassment.

One question, how was the feel of clutch engagement, when the car ran properly, when having a non-sprung flywheel with a non-sprung OEM clutch?

2ndgentl

It honestly feels great, It grabs instantly! The only drawback on that flywheel is that your engine revs a lot faster which I find it impossible to get traction even with drag radials in 1st and 2nd gear. From a 40 mph roll it feels like a rocket. Ugh, I'm going to be so disappointed if I find out a bolt came loose....I do appreciate all the feedback Zeta and hopefully I'll find out more tomorrow.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the response. I was just curious about the clutch/flywheel combo. Everything I read states to have either a sprung flywheel/unsprung clutch or the other way around to help absorb vibrations and reduce shock to the engine/trans. In addition, it's been said if you have a SC'er with lightweight pulleys, which I have, you should not have a single mass lightweight flywheel, once again due to potential vibrations. I bet the LW flywheel makes it a bit easier to rev-match when down shifting.

Any ways, be sure to update with your progress on this unfortunate issue, if possible.

Thanks.

2ndgentl

Feeling very frustrated right now...tranny definitely has to come off for further inspection. Top picture shows the metal piece I found, but it doesn't match the sensor housing piece that broke off. Not sure if it's just mangled. Now, lets talk about the flywheel... notice on the second picture how badly damaged the surface is where the sensors are. And notice the scratch going around the whole flywheel. Also, notice on the third picture all those black little lines on the flywheel running from top to bottom? If I run my fingernail across them it sticks as if they are little hairline cracks. Not sure how much more I will see when I pull off that tranny. I have been a marine mechanic and have had my own business for over 10 years now, so I am very meticulous when it comes to working on boats or cars. What I am trying to say is that I know I didn't screw up anything on the installation two years ago. I definitely need a new flywheel just by the looks of this one. Also possibly a new clutch kit since I'm going to have the tranny off again...

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Those are some difficult pictures to look at. Lots of scraping and flying around damage.

With the limited inspection view you are afforded through that clutch case plate it's difficult to know for sure; however, I'd wager that that piece of 'something' in your first pic is one of the sensor trigger plates. It appears, looking at the wide end of the piece that remains, that there is a machined rounded area that wound allow for a screw, although the rest of the surrounded area of the trigger plate for that screw has disappeared.

In addition, on the 2nd picture, just to the upper left of your lower arrow, there appears to be the machined area, into the aluminium, that is for the seating of the flat trigger sensor piece, of which the 'screw' is just up against the inner side of the flywheel, next to the ring gear, which can't be seen. The shadow of one of the ring gear teeth is located right in the middle of the machined area I'm speculating about.

I do see the verticle 'black line(s)' you refer to in the third picture; however, that appears to be the edge of the machined area I mentioned above.

What direction will you go with replacing the flywheel/clutch kit, OEM vs LW flywheel with aftermarket clutch?

zeta

iTrader: (1)

This shows a little of what I'm trying to convey. There is a machined 'channel' to recess the thickness of the trigger plate along with the 'screw' that hides next to the ring gear. In your picture, we can't see the screw, for obvious reasons, however, the trigger plate is held by said screw of which has a round hole drilled through it. That's the round machined area on the piece in your first picture I'm referring to


[/QUOTE]

Here is another that shows multiple trigger plates.

Thanks to 6spd-Gerco for the pic!

2ndgentl

This sucks because I loved the gains I got from that LW flywheel so I would probably go with the same Aasco flywheel ($500 ��) and as far as clutch I would probably stick with an oem stock clutch because I've never had any problems with them and they seem to grab good. Unless you have any other recommendations, I just hate to spend money on a product that I'm assuming failed on me

2ndgentl

I'll definitely have to email or call Aasco after I take it off the transmission and take better pictures of it. I hope they stand by their product

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Talk to the XLR8 peeps in the thread below;

https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...ilable-929666/

They state that they will sell a clutch/PP kit without the LW flywheel. They have different clutch compounds for Daily driver; street/autocross; drag racing. The clutch is also sprung; however, the pressure plate is not self-adjusting like the OEM PP: therefore, adjustment would have to be done at the pedal. Maybe they will sell only the clutch disc and you can use an OEM self-adjusting one? Your OEM PP may be OK?

6spd-GERCO installed one of their kits in his thread I've been using pictures from.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Hey 2ndgentl, It would be interesting to see if there is a:

P0385 Crankshft position sensor B circuit malfunction
OR
P0386 Crankshaft position sensor B circuit range/performance problem code stored for the transmission sensor?

Did you happen to check with your scanner the morning the car did not start for the first time?

Or is that when you found the P0336 Crankshaft Position Sensor A circuit Range/Performance code?

Just trying to logic out if the CRK sensor B is still good, even though it is pretty beat up, and whether your 'no start' condition the next morning was due to the sensor being bad vs. whether the 'no start' would be due to a 'suspected' missing trigger sensor on the flywheel?

2ndgentl

That night when my car wouldn't rev past 2000 rpms the only code I got with my scanner was P0336 Crankshaft Position Sensor A CKT Range/Perf. The next morning when it wouldn't start I checked it a few times and was getting the same exact code, P0336. I would of thought that it should have given me the P0385 or P0386 code, but it didn't. I'll check it again tomorrow to see if anything has changed, but I doubt it.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Exactly.

Another curious point, did you ever turn the Ignition off/on, at any point after the '... clanging noise as if something metal broke off and was clinging everywhere for a second or two and then it stopped.'?
OR,
did you just continue, with the car running in 'limp mode', until you could get safely home and parked?

The reason I ask is if the ignition was turned off, after hearing the clanging noise statement above, and turned back on, and the car started, then maybe the entirety of the crank trigger sensors are intact and the piece of metal is something else.

Otherwise, if the P0385 or P0386 code is not present, then the trans. CRK sensor may still be good, which would explain why no code is present, and the one piece of metal you found, the suspected CRK trigger sensor, is what is causing the 'no start' because the ECU is getting insufficient data due to the lack of input from 'P0336 Crankshaft Position Sensor ' and the missing trigger sensor to get the car to start in 'limp mode'? Get what I saying? Just throwing out some ideas, in trying to understand and to think about.

2ndgentl

I appreciate all the info that you are giving me Zeta! When I heard the metal clanging noises it was when I was on my way home so I didn't stop, I continued to drive until I got home. That is when I shut it off and then tried starting it again and I couldn't. The next morning I was able to fire it up after attempting it a few times while giving it gas but obviously it wouldn't go past 2000 RPMs. Just now I fired it up so I could position it a different way in the garage so I can be ready to remove the transmission. I got it started without the crank position sensor on the transmission being in place, but it made no difference, it still was a little hard to start but eventually idled so I was able to at least move the car. I did check on my OBD2 scanner and this time I got P0335 Crank Position Sensor A Circuit Malfunction. Only because I had taken it out from the transmission. When I started the engine I could only rev it up to 2000 RPMs but it sounds nice and smooth and quiet, also no noises coming from the transmission. I am dreading taking everything apart to get a closer look with my busy work schedule but I have to do it ASAP if I want my daily driver back again. Not too crazy about driving my Honda Element work van everywhere, even though it's a 5-speed all wheel drive, nothing compares to the Acura

zeta

iTrader: (1)

lol, No problem and thanks for the feedback to my questions.

I would of done the same thing. Even though I have never experienced 'limp mode', I bet the change in performance would have freaked anyone out who needs their car as a daily.

That's interesting. There must have been just enough functionality between the two crank sensors for the ECU to get it going. Not sure how all that stuff interacts and all.

Good to hear it ran so you could get it ready for the trans. removal. That makes sense about the P0335 code that is now present.

Well, to say the least, it will be interesting to see what you find. You are braver than I am in tackling the trans. job yourself, although I'm pretty handy with a wrench, you got about 20 years on me so that stuff is a little hard on these old bones, hehe.

I won't pester you as much going forward for details and let you coordinate the job that is ahead of you to fit your busy schedule. Best of luck and take plenty of pics, if possible, of that LW flywheel and where you eventually find that piece of the crank sensor housing, from your initial pictures above, and where it is lodged in the clutch/tranny space.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Any progress on getting your daily sixer back on the road?

2ndgentl

Sorry, not yet...I've been so busy with work lately but the thought of what really happened to my car is eating me up inside so I need to get on it really soon.

2ndgentl

Finally I had time to drop the tranny today. Funny how I can do this in 3 hrs now with no problem...lol One of the metal sensor tabs broke on the Aasco flywheel. I also noticed that a piece of the pressure plate broke, which you can see on the pic. The flywheel is destroyed, so I wonder if I should contact Aasco about this, but I'm not sure if it was the pressure plate that broke first causing this or the flywheel sensor tab. Take a look for yourself and let me know what you think.

Not sure how this can break like that. 2 yr old clutch with 25k on it.

Notice the sensor tab broken

Here's my favorite pic...pointed at the broken sensor tab



Tranny has metal scratches all over it





The rest of the metal pieces found

Even starter got a little damaged



Random picture of my dog eating a watermelon

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Nice job on the tranny removal, I wish I could do that in 3 hours, lol. If I had to guess, I would say that the part of the pressure plate that you note, somehow broke first, and then with all of the commotion of flinging around, got lodged in the way of the flywheel/trigger and snapped the trigger metal piece from its recessed grove, and as they say, 'the rest is history'. I soley base this on the fact that the flywheel trigger screw/bolt is still firmly in place on the flywheel holding the remnant of the trigger; thus, reducing the probability that the flywheel screw/bolt backed out to release the trigger which damaged your tranny side crank sensor and then went on to interfere with the clutch release/pressure plate. I'm no expert; however that is my best guess based on the pictures I see. Hopefully one of the more knowledgeable members will be able to comment and provide their opinion.

That sure is a huge piece of metal to be violently moving around in there.

The screw/bolt is still firmly in place, which leads me to believe that part of the pressure plate may have gotten lodged in that open space area of the flywheel and contacted the trigger, thus, snapping it off in the process.



Nice job. I envy your abilities to do this without the aid of a lift.


Thanks for the pictures, they are telling in regards to the nature of what happens when things unintentionally go wrong.

Where were the larger pieces of the pressure plate lodged?

In addition, maybe Aasco can refurbish the flywheel for you? Member fsttyms1 mentioned that he had his rebuilt by them in the past. It might be an option for you depending on total cost; however, it just may be a lost cause.

great pics!

fsttyms1

by the looks of it the pressure plate failed causing the damage to everything else. Odds are that piece broke off and spun around breaking off the part of the crank sensor, damaging the flywheel, and damage to the starter. Aasco can replace the friction plate and replace the trigger on the flywheel for around 130 bucks.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

fsttyms1, he was running an 'unsprung' set up, in regards to both the Aasco flywheel and OEM clutch disc. Would that have any effect on the clutch release/pressure plate side where the failure occurred at all in regards to possible metal fatigue?

2ndgentl

What does an "unsprung" setup mean? Also, what setup would you go with now that I need a new lightweight flywheel and clutch? I suppose maybe the combo you mentioned earlier in this thread Zeta. That clutch I had was an OEM LUK clutch. Exactly 2 yrs old. I do drive pretty aggressive at times but never expected that to happen.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

When the CL-S6 was manufactured it had a heavy 'sprung' dual mass flywheel:

"A Dual mass flywheel or DMF is a rotating mechanical device that is used to provide continuous energy (rotational energy) in systems where the energy source is not continuous, the same way as a conventional flywheel acts, but damping any violent variation of torque or revolutions that could cause an unwanted vibration. The vibration reduction is achieved by accumulating stored energy in the two flywheel half masses over a period of time but damped by a series of strong springs, doing that at a rate that is compatible with the energy source, and then releasing that energy at a much higher rate over a relatively short time." (Wikipedia)

That is why they are so heavy, the engineering of the DMF 'gives and takes' or dampens any sudden engine and transmission shock/vibrations during normal use to provide a smooth shifting experience.

On the Pressure plate/clutch side, if you look at your OEM LUK clutch disc you will find no 'springs' incorporated into the metal center mass. It is solid metal that provides no dampening because if your using a DMF that provides the dampening for you at a cost of the heavier construction. If you research, the consensus is that either the flywheel or clutch disc should be dampened to help with shock/vibrations.

Since the AASCO lightweight flywheel is 'single mass' it is not engineered 'sprung' like the heavy OEM DMF; thus, you get a higher rate of spin-up with 'less power robbing effort' for performance because of its lower weight. Therefore, at a minimum one should, at least, dampen the clutch disc to help with shock/vibrations from the engine/tranny.

For instance, if you look at the 'unsprung' AASCO lightweight flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disc kit XLR8 is selling, the clutch disc is dampened with engineered springs incorporated into its central metal body. In addition, the pressure plate they use is alleged to have increased 'clamping force' incorporated into its construction; however, it does not have a 'self adjusting' benefit like the OEM PP.

https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...ilable-929666/

XLR8 states that they will sell the pressure plate/clutch disc separate from the AASCO flywheel; so, if you can have your current flywheel 'rebuilt' by AASCO, like fsttyms1 did, you may be able to save some money without purchasing a new one. It depends on what AASCO says after evaluating your current flywheel and your financial/time constraints.
OR
You can purchase one of the XLR8 kits to get back on the road faster. Just be aware that you will have to adjust the clutch at the pedal rather then depend on a 'self adjusting' feature incorporated into an OEM pressure plate, as mentioned above.

Sorry for such a verbose post. I'm not claiming that the 'unsprung' set-up you were running caused the pressure plate failure that occurred. That is a known unknown at this point. It was just something that I noticed when asking questions earlier to help glean information from you to help figure out what beat the hell out of your crank sensor. Going forward, having either your FW sprung or your clutch disc sprung may prevent anything further from happening in future.

2ndgentl

Thank you Zeta! Very nice write-up! Now when you say the clutch pedal has to be adjusted after installing that flywheel clutch combo I am assuming there is a very small adjustment that can be made by the floorboard inside the car where the clutch is? Would you have to adjust it to your preference? Or can you just leave it the way it is and it will still work perfectly fine but the throw might be different on the pedal. The clutch pedal has always engaged almost all the way to the top which I never really liked that. I usually like the clutch to engage about halfway off the pedal. I might just say screw it and go with that combo so I can have this done faster. The only advantage that I've noticed with a lighter flywheel is from a 20 mile-an-hour roll or faster, because ever since I've had a lightweight flywheel I cannot get any traction from a dig even with drag radials. These cars with enough power seem to be impossible to launch off the line. I love the lightened flywheel but would I be better off just getting the stock flywheel instead? I'm keeping the car all motor.

zeta

iTrader: (1)

Great question! I don't know exactly, my PP is OEM self-adjusting. I do know that the Helms Service Manual, for the CL, has a 'Clutch Pedal, Clutch Pedal Position Switch, and Clutch Interlock Switch Adjustment' procedure for adjusting the clutch pedal as follows:

NOTE:
-To check the clutch pedal position switch (see page 4-44).
-To check the clutch interlock switch (see page 4-6).
-Remove the drivers side floor mate before adjusting the clutch pedal.
-The clutch is self-adjusting to compensate for wear.
-If there is no clearance between the master cylinder piston and push rod, the release bearing will be held against the diaphragm spring, which can result in clutch slippage or other clutch problems.
1) Loosen the clutch pedal position switch locknut (A), and back off the clutch pedal position switch (B) until it no longer touches the clutch pedal (C).
2) Loosen the clutch push-rod locknut (D), and turn the push rod (E) in or out to get the specified height (F), stroke (G), free play (H) and disengagement height (I) at the clutch pedal.
Clutch Pedal Stroke: 142.5-152.5mm or (5.61-6.00 in.)
Clutch Pedal Free Play: 10-18mm or (0.39-0.71 in.)
Clutch Pedal Height: 190mm (7.48 in.)
Clutch Pedal Disengagement Height: 79mm (3.11 in.)
3) Tighten the clutch push-rod locknut (D).
4) With the clutch pedal released, turn the clutch pedal position switch (B) in until it contacts the clutch pedal (C).
5) Turn the clutch pedal position switch (B) in an additional 3/4 to 1 turn.
6) Tighten the clutch pedal position switch locknut (A).
7) Press the clutch pedal to the floor.
8) Release the clutch pedal 10-16mm (0.39-0.63 in.) from the fully depressed position, and hold it there. Adjust the position of the clutch interlock switch (K) so that the engine will start with the clutch pedal in this position.
9) Tighten the clutch interlock switch locknut (J).

I wish I had the ability/equipment to scan and post the procedure page out of the Helm's for you, but I don't.

Great questions! If you were to go with a non-self-adjusting PP, there may be no adjustment, there may be a 'very small adjustment', or a large adjustment. It will definitely be a learning experience, for sure. There are those members on here that run the AASCO LW flywheel with a sprung clutch that can answer those questions better then I, as to what they ran into after the install and how they corrected for it.

If I had to ask someone, private mail 'fsttyms1', he is a moderator and is experienced/very helpful with this exact occurrence and could probably sum it up very quickly for you to aid your decision making.

This is a great example of modification 'opportunity cost': the loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen. The performance gain of a LW flywheel, upgraded clutch friction material, and the higher 'clamping force' of a non-adjusting PP in exchange for the added/unknown burden of making it all work smoothly, once all back together, with adjustments at the clutch pedal.

If you ultimately decide to sacrifice some performance and just go back all OEM, you can find the LUK PP & clutch disc kit and DMF on rockauto for a reasonable price. Amazon sometimes can beat rockauto, if you hit it at the right time with free shipping.

Hope all that helps.

2ndgentl

I found the same Aasco Flywheel online for $491.40. That's the cheapest one online. I am going with your recommendation Zeta on a Sprung Clutch. Any recommendations on which one I should go with? I'm thinking I should go with a stage 2 clutch. Maybe stage 3? I dunno, I just remember people who have had aftermarket clutches usually said that they should have stuck with a stock clutch.

ExcelerateRep

2ndgentl I am going to PM some options you have that we offer.



XLR8 Clutch System - Excelerate's Honda & Acura Store - Japanese Performance Specialist

2ndgentl

Awesome! Thanks, I'll check it out!

2ndgentl

Sorry Exelerate Rep, I tried leaving you a private message but it doesn't post it after I reply. I'll just ask you the questions here: I am keeping my car Naturally Aspirated. My car last made 285 whp and 247 ft lbs torque weighing in at 3000 lbs. So I think the DAILY clutch kit with aluminum flywheel will be best. Does the Aasco flywheel weigh 15 lbs? Trying to figure out if it's the same Aasco flywheel I just had. Is this DAILY clutch kit considered stage 2 or 3? Also, how much does the complete DAILY clutch/pressure plate weigh? Let me know how much that complete DAILY clutch/flywheel kit costs. Zip code 34655 (New Port Richey). Thank You! - Joe

zeta

iTrader: (1)

That's a great price for the AASCO #103212-11 flywheel, Amazon correct? They state the item weight is 15lbs.

Stage 2 may be all that you need for your NA set-up.

If I'm interpreting the XLR8 webpage correctly, it appears that:
Stage 1 = Daily; $1049 before shipping
Stage 2 = Street/Strip; $1149 " "
Stage 3 = Drag; $1249 " "

2ndgentl

I just spoke with XLR8 and they told me that the DAILY is considered a stage 2 clutch. Handles up to 340 ft lbs of torque at the flywheel, which my car naturally aspirated will never have that much torque. I'm assuming since my car puts out about 250 ft lbs of torque at the wheels it probably measures around 280 at the flywheel?

zeta

iTrader: (1)

That is great info to know, it would be very informative if they could update their website to delineate each category with an estimated 'stage'.

So, did you 'pull the trigger' on the whole DAILY kit or just the clutch/pressure plate?